Reconquista

[MarshalNey]

I a little change shape of moorish coat of arms. so if another shape of moorish shields is needed we can go with this. moors used this shape and it is close to shields...

Turning the shields sideways will work for now. The important thing is that now everyone can get a decent idea of how the gameplay works.

I like the Shield bonus system. Reconquista theme alive and well

ok, guys what more is needed for finished gameplay settings? come on and lets finished this map, than I can work on Baltic Crusades.

Baltic Crusades does deserve some attention.

However, I still think that visually you could simplify the Reconquista gameplay just a little more, to make it more understandable- and that's what the map needs in order for people to be able to critique it effectively.

the +1 bonus for 3 the same coloured settlements represents medieval nobility system, and also replace principalities/taifas which I kicked off (galicia, asturia, catalunya, sevilla, denia).

as you can see now there are only two auto-deploy settlements (castles, cities), the towns gives only standard bonus +1 for 3.

I still have to voice my feeling that at least one of these secondary bonuses is unnecessary. Plus, for a map that doesn't use the standard bonus, it's got a lot of '+1 for 3' bonuses... just seems like a more complicated way of doing the same effective thing.

I understand that you want those "no-man's" territories in there, and I think that's a good idea to keep. But visually and gameplay-wise, I believe in my heart that something can be done to preserve your idea and still make it simpler.

Here the thing- there are just too many layers to the bonuses. Holding the Taifa of Granada, for instances, gives +11 in bonuses as follows:
+2 autodeploy for 1 castle
+3 autodeploy for 3 citiies
+3 for holding the region (Taifa de Granada)
+2 for holding 7 territories with the same color
+1 for holding 3 towns

If you want to preserve the theme of the nobility system, I think all that you need is the +1 bonus for every 3 towns. Here's how I see it-

The top nobles (at the top of the heirarchy), live in the castles. They get a big bad +2 for holding just one place. However, there are only 12 of them on the map as they're a pretty exclusive bunch.

The minor nobles and big merchants (in the middle), live in the cities. They get a nice +1 for holding just one place. There are more of these guys than the nobles, 17 on the map, but they're still a small circle of people.

The small-time artisans and rural peasants (at the bottom of the social order), live in the "towns" (villages?). They only give a bonus in combination, +1 for every 3 places. However, they are the most numerous too, with 24 on the map.

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From this perspective, then, you could do away with the "+1 for 3 of the same colored region", because the medieval system is already shown in the castles/cities/towns bonuses. The colors still matter, though, because players can get a region bonus for having all of the same color.

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Finally, it would be nice, visually, to reduce the look of the towns, since they really don't have the same gameplay impact as the cities and castles. Make the towns smaller, less conspicuous. All the towns really need is a bit of color, maybe not even a real silouhuette. Anything with color but not a Castle or City would be a town... It would help understand the map a lot, I think.

[porkenbeans]

I will try to hammer something out today.
MN has voiced the same concerns as I, so I will try out an idea or two that I have, that goes to simplify, but retains the basic game play.

[theBastard]

Turning the shields sideways will work for now. The important thing is that now everyone can get a decent idea of how the gameplay works.

I like the Shield bonus system. Reconquista theme alive and well

yep, so this is clear now

Baltic Crusades does deserve some attention.

I know, but I was very busy and I want to resolve Reconquista the first, because here are more people interesting...

However, I still think that visually you could simplify the Reconquista gameplay just a little more, to make it more understandable- and that's what the map needs in order for people to be able to critique it effectively.

I still have to voice my feeling that at least one of these secondary bonuses is unnecessary. Plus, for a map that doesn't use the standard bonus, it's got a lot of '+1 for 3' bonuses... just seems like a more complicated way of doing the same effective thing.

I understand that you want those "no-man's" territories in there, and I think that's a good idea to keep. But visually and gameplay-wise, I believe in my heart that something can be done to preserve your idea and still make it simpler.

hm, when I look at your notices at the bottom you are right about bonuses. but no man´s territiries are still important for me. what is understable that "land territories" are only for moving your units? we can explain this in legend, btw...

Here the thing- there are just too many layers to the bonuses. Holding the Taifa of Granada, for instances, gives +11 in bonuses as follows:
+2 autodeploy for 1 castle
+3 autodeploy for 3 citiies
+3 for holding the region (Taifa de Granada)
+2 for holding 7 territories with the same color
+1 for holding 3 towns

just one notice: the bonus for 3 the same coloured settlements is not more valid when player holds all Kingdom/Taifa. but it is baseless now, this bonus will be kick off...

If you want to preserve the theme of the nobility system, I think all that you need is the +1 bonus for every 3 towns. Here's how I see it-

The top nobles (at the top of the heirarchy), live in the castles. They get a big bad +2 for holding just one place. However, there are only 12 of them on the map as they're a pretty exclusive bunch.

The minor nobles and big merchants (in the middle), live in the cities. They get a nice +1 for holding just one place. There are more of these guys than the nobles, 17 on the map, but they're still a small circle of people.

The small-time artisans and rural peasants (at the bottom of the social order), live in the "towns" (villages?). They only give a bonus in combination, +1 for every 3 places. However, they are the most numerous too, with 24 on the map.

-----------------

From this perspective, then, you could do away with the "+1 for 3 of the same colored region", because the medieval system is already shown in the castles/cities/towns bonuses. The colors still matter, though, because players can get a region bonus for having all of the same color.

yes, you are right the nobility system is in also without +1 for 3 the same coloured settlements...
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Finally, it would be nice, visually, to reduce the look of the towns, since they really don't have the same gameplay impact as the cities and castles. Make the towns smaller, less conspicuous. All the towns really need is a bit of color, maybe not even a real silouhuette. Anything with color but not a Castle or City would be a town... It would help understand the map a lot, I think.

if my idea about "no man´s" land must die, what about colour also land territories (so they will be also part of continets), delete towns and add bonus +1 for holding 3 land territories? so there will be only castles and cities...

thanks MarshalNey for help.

[theBastard]

I will try to hammer something out today.
MN has voiced the same concerns as I, so I will try out an idea or two that I have, that goes to simplify, but retains the basic game play.

pork, thanks for your help and suport
but to the time when we do not finished GP, save your power and time. after GP will be finished will be enough time for graphic...

[porkenbeans]

I will try to hammer something out today.
MN has voiced the same concerns as I, so I will try out an idea or two that I have, that goes to simplify, but retains the basic game play.

pork, thanks for your help and suport
but to the time when we do not finished GP, save your power and time. after GP will be finished will be enough time for graphic...

I have an idea that goes toward GP and GFX at the same time. I will work on it today. It is a labor of love for me, so let me try once again, to come up with the solution, that we are looking for.

My first attempt to simplify the GP on this map, I stripped it down to bare bones, and just made a standard map with two bonus icons, (shield and religious).

I have come up with a way, I believe, to use more of the original GP, but slightly simplified, in GP and GFX.

[theBastard]

pork, with all my respect to other ideas and GP settings, the auto-deploy as base is the most important for me. there are very few, maybe no one, map build on this system. so please try to look at this, thanks

[porkenbeans]

I came across this while doing some research. This animation is priceless to any researcher that studies it, for more than just a glance. It captures the feel of just how long, progressive, and persistent, Reconquista was.

Thought I would share and go back to do some more reading.

Click image to enlarge.

AD 718

Click image to enlarge.

Real, legendary, and fictional episodes from the Reconquista are the subject of much of Medieval Portuguese literature, Spanish literature, and Catalan literature, such as the 'cantar de gesta'.

Some noble genealogies show the close relations (although not very numerous) between Muslims and Christians. For example, Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir, whose rule is considered to have marked the peak of power for Moorish al-Andalus Iberia, married Abda, daughter of Sancho Garcés II of Navarra, who bore him a son, named Abd al-Rahman, and commonly known in pejorative sense as Sanchuelo (Little Sancho, in Arabic: Shanjoul). After his father's death, Sanchuelo/Abd al-Rahman, as a son of a Christian princess, was a strong contender to take over the ultimate power in Muslim al-Anadalus. A hundred years later, King Alfonso VI of Castile, considered among the greatest of the Medieval Spanish kings, designated as his heir his son (also a Sancho) by the refugee Muslim princess Zaida of Seville.

It has also been proposed that the war left the Iberian kingdoms with deep economic crises, leading to the expulsion of the Jews (who had lived in the Iberian Peninsula for over ten centuries) in order to confiscate their funds and property. It can be questioned due to the Portuguese Reconquista that had ended in 1249, and both the Castillian and Portuguese kingdoms that may have begun profiting from maritime expansion along Africa before the Jews and Moors were expelled. The huge wealth from the Americas was still to arrive as Columbus' first voyage and the surrender of Granada were both in 1492.

This map has 15 shields, (if I am counting them right). If it had one more it would be perfect for our game.

Click image to enlarge.

[MarshalNey]

Pork, I'm worried that you and The Bastard are working in parallel rather than tandem.

If I may, I think that The Bastard's latest bonus scheme will work, without the +1 for 3 colored territories... as well, TB, I think you misunderstood me a bit, the "no-man's" lands would stay under the change I was suggesting, just axe the above bonus and keep the towns bonus.

What will really clean up the map visually, I think, is to erase the Town icons off of the map, leaving the City and Castles. Replace the town icons with something much less conspicuous, maybe just colored circles, but for the bonus scheme have them function as towns (heck, call them towns/villages).

Definitely, keeping the autodeploys and the Moorish/Christian capital bonus pairs seem fundamental to the gameplay and consistent with the medieval/Reconquista theme.

[theBastard]

this I like on CC, that people can learn something new from our history as pork now about Reconquista
go for it pork, it is very interesting...

I know the map which you posted at the last and I´m afraid that is not from Reconquista era. the shields there represents historical areas of Iberia, but does not show possesion during Reconquista.

our map is from about 1150 AD, so after time when was County of Portugal founded, later it becomes to Kingdom of Portugal. but this is very hard to add to GP as also foundation of Crown of Aragon and so on...
also moorish Taifas era was from about 1100 AD to about 1250 AD.

sorry Marshal for my bad english... now I see what you mean about towns. I will do something with this...

I think that is better work as tandem, pork is graphic master and I´m much more interestin in GP and map idea.

[MarshalNey]

Btw, Pork, I didn't say it but I LOVE that animation. Where did you find it?

[porkenbeans]

Btw, Pork, I didn't say it but I LOVE that animation. Where did you find it?

Wikapedia.
I would like to say, that from the viewpoint of most Americans, we just do not fully understand, or appreciate, the wide gulf that exists between the Christians and Muslims.

Over here, we have not had the history, of hundreds of years, of war. Reading about the re-conquest of Iberia, has enlightened me to the fact, that this battle will continue to be fought, as long as there are Christians and Muslims.

It is quit odd when you look down on this history, of these two branches of the same Faith, and you just have to wonder, how is it possible that we call ourselves, as a race, -civilized.

We cultivate war at every turn, from our movies, to our hero worship of our soldiers. Pride is shoved down our throats soon after weening. The Muslim family grieves for their suicide bomber son, just as much, as we grieve for, and honor, our brave sons and daughters.

So when are we as a race, going to evolve to finally become a civilized society. The "Faith" of righteousness, and superiority, will feed this war, into the continuing pages of our history.

My "Faith", must be placed in the hope, that one day, the Human Race will grow out of this neanderthal, tribal warfare, mindset.

Until then, anyone up for a friendly game of Risk ?

[porkenbeans]

Click image to enlarge.

OK here my my second attempt at solving our GP problem. In the first version I tried to simplify everything down to a "basic" game. This did help a lot with the cluttered up feel that was going on.

In this version I have tried to keep to the origonal GP as much as possible. I have succeeded in taking out much of the clutter, and at the same time, kept it modestly complicated.

I have added two shields. (to be named),This brings the starting positions to 16. Just right for 8 player games.

All of the shields are protected within their own borders, except the ones that are circled in red. Impasses can be added in those places to fix this.

The territs w/out any icons are the Peones. They do not get an icon.

[Evil DIMwit]

Does this scheme preserve the no-man's territories from before? Because I was quite fond of that.

[theBastard]

hm, pork this is quite away of original idea and GP... also idea about unificaton of Iberian small kingdoms/prinicipalities is not here.
why you have 8 churches, but only 6 temples when the bonus is for its combination? and I think it should be better to have mosquitos...
also some "capitals" have not good position...

Evil DIMwit, I´ happy that somebody like idea about no-mans land, but unfortunately this last version looks that there are no these lands...

[natty dread]

I think you guys should stick to the plan: thebast making gameplay & pork making graphics

[MarshalNey]

Click image to enlarge.

OK here my my second attempt at solving our GP problem. In the first version I tried to simplify everything down to a "basic" game. This did help a lot with the cluttered up feel that was going on.

I agree with this assessment. However,

In this version I have tried to keep to the origonal GP as much as possible. I have succeeded in taking out much of the clutter, and at the same time, kept it modestly complicated.

not this one. The gameplay on this map is radically different- the autodeploys are about the only thing left from the original ideas.

That said, pork, this map is very nice graphically and gameplay-wise could work (the religious bombardment scheme reminds me of some kind of two-way artillery battle- thoughts for a future map? )... but it is as I feared that there seem to be 2 separate maps developing in paralell. I think, in the spirit of the desgin draft and the basis upon which this map was advanced, that we should stick to The Bastard's ideas as closely as possible.

There are some points I'm seeing now, looking at Pork's map, that could help visually simplify The Bastard's idea.

1) I noticed that all of the religious markers (shields) in The Bastard's map are on Cities. I would suggest just replacing the City icons with the Christian/Moorish symbols that Pork used in his map (there will be no non-religious cities).

2) Remove the shield icons as religious markers. Change them to purely political markers as follows:
(a) Replace the Castle icons with the various Shield icons that are within the same region. There are 12 shields and 12 castles (likely not a coincidence).

3) As suggested before, get rid of the Town icons, I think simple colored...ooh, squares, will do for now, to distinguish them from the colorless circles of the "no-man's lands".

These 3 things should greatly simplify the look of the map while keeping all of the core gameplay elements.

[Kabanellas]

Just one remark.

Having a region named Portucale is an historical inaccuracy. Portucale was a county that included Porto (as well as Guimarães, Braga, Bragança and Coimbra which is located where you have Beira) within its limits.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficheiro:Condado_portucalense_carte-1070-fr.png

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficheiro:Spanish_reconquista.gif


on a side note: The County of Portucale established independence from the Kingdom of Leon to become the Kingdom of Portugal in 1143

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal

Keep on the good work!!!!!

[theBastard]

I´m not gameplay expert (how could I be, this is only my second attempt to do map ) but I agree with natty that I could do GP and pork graphic. if pork has not problem with this...

I had some ideas and visions. not all are possible to include to GP (if GP must be easy understable). and do not forgot no-man´s land - it is realy original idea used nowhere...
I do not think that made two paralell maps is the best idea. we must agree on GP and than work on graphic.

I think that we should go with this GP. it is close to my ideas and GP is clear and understable, in my opinion.
so please skilled guys, carthographers, mods could you give your opinions here?

Click image to enlarge.

thanks Kabanellas for notice, it is easy to change name of province Portucale. I know about Portucal history, my idea was to show foundation of County of Portucal and than how it become to Kingdom. also I wanted to show foundation of Crown of Aragon, unification of Kingdom of Galicia with Leon and so on but it was too complicated in GP... look here

Click image to enlarge.

[porkenbeans]

No, it is NOT the same as the original. That was too cluttered, and too complex. There is just too much going on. Until this is fixed somehow, this map will not progress.

I have stuck to the main idea of representing the feudal aspects, that were common for the place and period.

At the top of this society were the Royals, Kings or Queens. They are represented by the shields.

Second in line were the Knights and nobility. represented by the horse.

Third was the religious authorities, represented by the crosses and moons.

And at the bottom were the Peones, no icon is needed.

While my arrangement of these icons on the map, may be subject to debate, The icons themselves, are much better than the town/city/castle icons. They are too alike, and are not distinguishable at a glance. They are also to big and ugly. Also they do NOT represent anything that is unique to the subject. All maps have cities and towns. These items are better represented with text. What is unique about this place and time, is the "Feudalistic" society that prevailed.

I have provided enough different icons to represent this society, to replace the old (cluttered looking) ones. all that needs to be done now is, arrange them to fit the desired Gameplay.

The main thing that I am trying to put forth here is, THE NEW SET OF ICONS. The rest like bombardments, bonus amounts, placements of icons, and so forth, are only ideas that I am throwing out there.

Bast, can't you just use the new icons to create the GP that you have in mind ?

I will only make one suggestion first-
place only one territ within each border. If I need to, I can draw more borders. This one thing goes a long way to help this map to be less complex and cluttered.

[Evil DIMwit]

Am I the only one who finds the Bastard's latest map not so confusing? the town and city icons could use a bit of differentiation, perhaps, and the sea routes are rather faint, but otherwise clarity isn't much of an issue.

[theBastard]

No, it is NOT the same as the original. That was too cluttered, and too complex. There is just too much going on. Until this is fixed somehow, this map will not progress.

when you look at my last map it is much less cluttered and complex. btw, I think that also complex map could be interesting, but I did it easy understable...

I have stuck to the main idea of representing the feudal aspects, that were common for the place and period.

At the top of this society were the Royals, Kings or Queens. They are represented by the shields.

Second in line were the Knights and nobility. represented by the horse.

Third was the religious authorities, represented by the crosses and moons.

And at the bottom were the Peones, no icon is needed.

pork, this is not about feudal nobility system. this is about Reconquista and unification of Iberian kingdoms. the idea about nobility was on the third place and is not important...

While my arrangement of these icons on the map, may be subject to debate, The icons themselves, are much better than the town/city/castle icons. They are too alike, and are not distinguishable at a glance. They are also to big and ugly. Also they do NOT represent anything that is unique to the subject. All maps have cities and towns. These items are better represented with text. What is unique about this place and time, is the "Feudalistic" society that prevailed.

no, the icons are not better. why? because they does not represents about what is my idea. if you do not like my settlements try do them better, your graphic skill is great, I did what I´m able with my poor graphic skill...
the settlements must have any size - there must be army numbers and they are independent territories - they are not only icons...
not all maps have cities and towns. there are very few mapr where are three types of settlements and no map builded on settleemnts and no map has auto-deployed units as base...

I have provided enough different icons to represent this society, to replace the old (cluttered looking) ones. all that needs to be done now is, arrange them to fit the desired Gameplay.

The main thing that I am trying to put forth here is, THE NEW SET OF ICONS. The rest like bombardments, bonus amounts, placements of icons, and so forth, are only ideas that I am throwing out there.

I can not have bombardments here. maybe it is interesting in GP but not for medieval era. I made no-man´s lands to show how in medieval armies fought. they must arrive settlements and march over land to another settlement for siege it...

Bast, can't you just use the new icons to create the GP that you have in mind ?

pork, it is impossible. my idea was to buil map on settlements, auto-deploy units and show conquering of Iberia and its unification. also I want to have there shields, because I can not do only map for game, but also show something from history...

I will only make one suggestion first-
place only one territ within each border. If I need to, I can draw more borders. This one thing goes a long way to help this map to be less complex and cluttered.

could you tell me what exactly you do like on my last version of map? do not look at poor graphics, just look at GP and so on.

pork, I´m very happy that you helped me (and helping) with map. you are graphic master, but please try to understand my idea and visions...

[theBastard]

for everybody except Evil DIMwit , this is latest version of map. also adedd to the first post.

Click image to enlarge.

[theBastard]

if there will be the same shapes of settlements, what about this as new for towns?

[natty dread]

I like the latest version. I pretty much agree with E.DW on all points.

My suggestions for the icons:

Make the towns into simple rectangles, just large enough for army numbers.

Cities, the same rectangles, but with that tower with a cross on top on top of the rectangle.

Castles can stay as they are.

I still think the shielded territories would do well as starting positions.

[theBastard]

thanks natty.
hm, about starting points - no problem but there are 12 shields, so 4 must stay neutral than...