The CUBE

[paulk]

After reading http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=466&t=68154 I understand that if the 8 yellow balls are assigned as start positions, then there currently is no way around the hick-up that in a 2 player game they will start with 4 yellow each.

I say, so be it.

If I go back on the yellow ball bonus to +1 (from +2) for a yellow ball part of one or more mini squares or mini cubes:

A lucky drop = initial bonus consisting of 1 yellow and 3 other balls will generate a bonus of +1+1=2.
An even luckier drop = initial bonus consisting of 2 yellow and 2 other balls will generate a bonus of +1+1+1=3.

There is a slight problem here that you easily could start a 1 vs 1 game with a mini square of 4 yellow balls = +1+1+1+1+1=5.
To avoid this to happen, any mini square only consisting of yellow balls could render a bonus of 0 instead.

If someone later in the game get all 8 yellow balls and therefore hold a "yellow only mini cube", then he would get the +8 for the yellow balls, and +3 for the mini cube, and +6 for the 6 squares, but chances are that that player already has combinations of mini squares or mini cubes with some of the yellow balls, so the "jump" in bonus would most likely be marginal.

[Tieryn]

Wow so it's been a long while since this map first took to the streets, and I'm really happy that Paul's brought it back, it's even brought me back from retirement to finish the XML and maybe move forward a few of my other ideas now I have some free time coming up. Three cheers for the cube Go Paul, you're a legend.

Constructively: I like the idea of having Yellow mini-squares give no bonus, only the yellow cube giving a bonus. (as this would be a triumph to take and keep).

[paulk]

Legend? Wow, didn't know that! Where? hahaha.

I'm kind of bummed NOBODY have said ANYTHING about the new balls naming system!

I personally think that the new naming system is one of the major advancements that I have done lately! To me this improvement is 10 times more important than the hassle about a bonus here or there.
I noticed that when iancanton was naming different balls - I had to bring up and really search on the map to grasp what balls he was talking about!
Now I actually can picture where a ball is located in my mind, whatever code it has. Without problem!!!
It will probably be a hassle to change all the XML, but it will be worth it.

The yellow mini square "no-bonus" will take care of all final game play problems, even in 2 player games it will be unlikely to start with too many bonuses.
So hopefully some kind (moderator) soul takes pity on this map and STAMP IT black and blue with all stamps available!

Last but not least, welcome back Tieryn!

[iancanton]

I understand that if the 8 yellow balls are assigned as start positions, then there currently is no way around the hick-up that in a 2 player game they will start with 4 yellow each.

I say, so be it.

There is a slight problem here that you easily could start a 1 vs 1 game with a mini square of 4 yellow balls = +1+1+1+1+1=5.
To avoid this to happen, any mini square only consisting of yellow balls could render a bonus of 0 instead.

to minimise the chance of someone starting with a minisquare that has 2 or more yellows, let there be 2 (and only 2) start positions, with the 4 yellow balls in each start position being the corners of a regular tetrahedron. in 1v1, each player will start with 22 balls, while 2v2 games will have each player starting with 16 balls; both numbers are reasonable. so far, in combination with ur changes in red, this sounds workable. i have no idea yet what the chances of receiving a dropped +1 or +2 bonus are but, to give a guideline, if there is a less than 10% chance of +1 or more and also a less than 5% chance of +2 or more, then the drops are satisfactory.

i haven't been able to understand the proposed change to the naming system yet (but that's because i've made no attempt to do so in the very short time since i've seen it). i'll have a go after i return on sunday from my travels.

ian.

[paulk]

ian, how come each time you leave a comment my head spins?

to minimise the chance of someone starting with a minisquare that has 2 or more yellows, let there be 2 (and only 2) start positions, with the 4 yellow balls in each start position being the corners of a regular tetrahedron.

First I had to look up Tetrahedron From Wikipedia:
In geometry, a tetrahedron (plural: tetrahedra) is a polyhedron composed of four triangular faces, three of which meet at each vertex. (...) The tetrahedron is one kind of pyramid, which is a polyhedron with a flat polygon base and triangular faces connecting the base to a common point. In the case of a tetrahedron the base is a triangle (any of the four faces can be considered the base), so a tetrahedron is also known as a triangular pyramid.

You want the start positions in a 2 player game to be coded so that the positions are for example y1-y2-y3-y5 for player A and y6-y7-y8-y4 for player B.
Unfortunately it is not currently possible to determine who gets what start positions. It is random. I learned that from this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=466&t=68154

in 1v1, each player will start with 22 balls, while 2v2 games will have each player starting with 16 balls; both numbers are reasonable..

There will be a change in the number of initial balls in a 2 player game to be 22 balls each (since there will be no yellow neutrals) so instead of 20 starter balls it will be 22, that is correct. The other positions will be as usual. I changed the initial post to following:

In a 2 player game this means 22 starter balls each and 20 neutrals. (0 of the neutrals yellow) << changed
In a 3 player game this means 20 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (2 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 4 player game this means 16 starter balls each and 0 neutrals. (0 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 5 player game this means 12 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (3 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 6 player game this means 10 starter balls each and 4 neutrals. (2 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 7 player game this means 9 starter balls each and 1 neutrals. (1 of the neutrals yellow)
In a 8 player game this means 8 starter balls each and 0 neutrals. (0 of the neutrals yellow)

so far, in combination with ur changes in red, this sounds workable. i have no idea yet what the chances of receiving a dropped +1 or +2 bonus are but, to give a guideline, if there is a less than 10% chance of +1 or more and also a less than 5% chance of +2 or more, then the drops are satisfactory.

I am still waiting for some mathematics expert to calculate the chances of starting with an initial bonus of +1,+2 or more. But I think the risk of unfair start position is fairly reasonable.

i haven't been able to understand the proposed change to the naming system yet (but that's because i've made no attempt to do so in the very short time since i've seen it). i'll have a go after i return on sunday from my travels.

It is simple! It is based on the colors: p for pink, b for blue and so on. Additionally, "The CUBE's" 8 corner balls are numbered in "a snake" that comes back to bite its own ass.
If you can (and it is fairly easy) remember the color positions and the shape of the number worm, then you can easily name and picture each ball in the whole CUBE without problems.

********************************************************************************************************************************************

New map (v.31) with current changes:
Changed the legend back to +1 for all yellow ball bonuses.
Added that a 4 yellow ball minisquare would not generate any yellow ball bonus by itself.
Added an astrounaut for extra space feeling.

[yeti_c]

With regards to your new namings...

G3 <-> GO3 <-> O3 = bad.

C.

[paulk]

With regards to your new namings...

G3 <-> GO3 <-> O3 = bad.

C.

In what way is it bad?

[yeti_c]

The names are too similar - and they are positioned next to each other...

This is a bad thing - take a look at Feudal war for this - the revamp fixed this but isn't finished yet.

C.

[natty dread]

I don't like the new naming scheme. I don't know if I'm stupid or something but I just don't understand the logic of it. I wish you'd change the old one back.

[paulk]

I thought I had explained the logic?

Ok, from the beginning:

PART ONE
On each of the whole cube's 6 faces we have 4 balls in one color.
The colors first letter is used to represent those 4 balls and the 8 white balls next to them.

• p for the color pink
• r for the color red
• g for the color green
• o for the color orange
• c for the color cyan
• b for the color blue

We also have 8 yellow balls in the middle represented by the letter y.


PART TWO
Picturing the whole cube, you will notice that the outer corners are represented by numbers within parentheses (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7) and (8).
Lets call these (numberballs).
The numbers are connected after each other in a "snake" that comes back to bite it's own ass. (8) is the corner next to (1).
Each (numberball)'s number also affect the 7 balls closest to it, actually creating a mini cube affected by each number.

For example, look at the ball (1).
It affects the pink ball closest to it and the pink ball is there fore named p1. p for pink and 1 for (1).
Same with the blue ball closest to it. It get the name b1. b for blue and 1 for (1).
The closest red ball, same thing, r1, r for red and 1 for (1).
And finally the closest yellow ball, y1, y for yellow and 1 for (1).

PART THREE
Then we have the white balls between the colored balls.
They get their names from what colored balls are closest to them and what (numberball) that is closest to them.
pb1 that is between p for pink, b for blue and 1 for (1).
pr1 that is between p for pink, r for red and 1 for (1).
rb1 that is between r for red, b for blue and 1 for (1).

SUMMARY
Of course it is similarities between the codes g3 <-> go3 <-> o3, but once you have figured out the naming system it is intuitive.
Naming them something like Green(3) <-> GreenOrange(3) <-> Orange(3) would of course be better, but there is no space for long names.

[natty dread]

I liked the WXYZ coordinates better. It was much easier to find territories IMO. Then again maybe I'm just stupid...

[yeti_c]

If it takes that long to explain it in this thread - how are you going to explain it on your map?

C.

[paulk]

I wont. I was thinking writing it in the game log OrangeGreen3[og3] attacks Green3[g3] or similar

[yeti_c]

I wont. I was thinking writing it in the game log OrangeGreen3[og3] attacks Green3[g3] or similar

That doesn't sound good enough to me.

C>

[paulk]

I might ask you all if you could think of some way to illustrate/explain the number snake and I wonder if you think coloring the letters in the color they represent would be a good idea? I was avoiding it because of that I didn't want too many colors dotted everywhere, but now when you say you don't get it (but it is so EEEEEASY!!!) then I have to rethink...

[yeti_c]

What about an XYZ style naming mechanism... but instead of number/number/number try

Letter/Number/Colour

Obviously this will mean that each colour will have to be 1 specific axis...

Hmmm - perhaps that won't work.

You could therefore try number/letter/number...

Or possibly... letter/number/letter - where first letters are ABCD and second letters are WXYZ

C.

[paulk]

That sounds very much like previous naming systems I have had:

Version 27:
ABCD - 1234 - wxyz
colors in cube faces


Version 15:
ABCD -1234 - EFGH
colors in layers


Version 1:
A to P - 1234

[paulk]

I have tried to make it easier to understand my system:

Version 32:
Colored all letters after their color (red, blue, pink, cyan, green, orange, yellow) and changed the 1-8 corner balls to bigger fontsize.


Version 33:
Colored the numbers 1-8 in alternating gray and white. Prefer version 32 without.

[natty dread]

Nah, doesn't help for me.

How should I say this. This numbering system is just not as logical as the WXYZ letter-number-letter system. There you have clear coordinates, and it's easy to find the territory that matches the coordinate, and easy to comprehend which territory borders which. I guess it's a matter of what you're used to, but I believe most people are used to coordinates, as I am.

I strongly advise to use the abcd/1234/wxyz system.

[paulk]

I understand.
But for me it is totally the opposite.
I found the ABCS / 1234 /wxyz system not hard, but impossible for me to picture in my mind.
This system on the other hand is easy for me.
It is like 1) where is the color/s and 2) where is the number. 3) Ok, there is the ball.

[natty dread]

See the thing is, people who aren't used to the map, will have a hard time remembering which color is on which side, which number is in which corner. With the other system, it's easy because you know a is on the left, d on the right, 1 is up 4 is down, w is front z is back. There's an alphabetic order on all coordinates which makes it easy for people.

Perhaps you have a blind spot here, as you have been working on the map for a long time and spent lots of time looking at it, so it's easier for you to remember where each colour and number are... It might not be so easy to other people.

[paulk]

If you play the map, of course you remember where the colors are located.
And if you don't you look at the map.
Instead of trying to find that damn number/letter and then figuring out what direction it goes (x/y/z axel) you find your 1 or 2 colors (if it is 2 colors you know it is somewhere along the edge of the cube) and then what number it belongs to.

[iancanton]

ian, how come each time you leave a comment my head spins?

maybe by assuming that anyone who designed a map like this must be a mathematician!

You want the start positions in a 2 player game to be coded so that the positions are for example y1-y2-y3-y5 for player A and y6-y7-y8-y4 for player B.

no, the positions are y1-y3-y5-y7 for one player and y2-y4-y6-y8 for the other. the yellow balls in each position are those that are not adjacent to each other, so that neither player can start with a double yellow minisquare for a +2 bonus.

Unfortunately it is not currently possible to determine who gets what start positions. It is random.

it is random in that u can't force y1-y3-y5-y7 to be red rather than green or vice versa. however, u can specify that one position is y1-y3-y5-y7 and that the other is y2-y4-y6-y8, with the game engine determining which is red and which is green.

the beauty of the cube concept is its simplicity. i think the bonus for single-coloured minisquares takes something away from it. less is more!

i find the new numbering system to be reasonably easy to see on the map in the same way as the names on any other map, but find it hard to visualise it unless i'm actually studying the map closely, since the method is not intuitive. i therefore have a slight personal preference for the previous system, though the new system has certain advantages for the purpose of discussing gameplay.

ian.

[paulk]

ian, how come each time you leave a comment my head spins?

maybe by assuming that anyone who designed a map like this must be a mathematician!

i find the new numbering system to be reasonably easy to see on the map in the same way as the names on any other map, but find it hard to visualise it unless i'm actually studying the map closely, since the method is not intuitive. i therefore have a slight personal preference for the previous system, though the new system has certain advantages for the purpose of discussing gameplay.

Maybe it's because I am not a mathematician I find it easier to visualize the territories based on the new system.
And yes, one of the HUGE advantages with the new system is that it makes discussing gameplay much more linear.

Unfortunately it is not currently possible to determine who gets what start positions. It is random.

it is random in that u can't force y1-y3-y5-y7 to be red rather than green or vice versa. however, u can specify that one position is y1-y3-y5-y7 and that the other is y2-y4-y6-y8, with the game engine determining which is red and which is green.

Ok, in that case, what happens in 3-8 player games? Is it also possible to specify that in 4 player games the players get the balls on the opposite side of the yellow mini cube?

the beauty of the cube concept is its simplicity. i think the bonus for single-coloured minisquares takes something away from it. less is more!

Maybe you are right. I would like to hear more voices on this matter though.

[a.sub]

ok so i agree with ian on the issue of simplicity, i would make it a square with nothing more than a territory bonus (maybe +1 per 2 territs)

as for the numbering system, i would keep it to an XYZ coordinate plane, but with colors. so make each layer in depth a different color and the height and the distance across numbers. i say this for a few reasons. to begin with, its waaaaaaay harder to understand the concepts of implied depth in this map, i mean at first look it is a series of dots with lines. By adding the color as the depth its much easier to say one dot is farther then another because there is a visualization beyond checking the confusing lines. if you really think about it, making the depth the color would hypothetically make it possible to navigate the map without lines because they know they can either go up or down int he color range, or stay in the same color range and move up down, left or right. since everyone is already used to moving the same color and moving either up, down, left or right combining them makes it less confusing. so yeah make colors represent the depth since thats the most complex concept we have here. i also advocate this because when you are using number, you need what you are counting to be related. so if i said you can either move 1 miles or 5286 feet, at first glance its hard to tell what farther. similarly, if you tried to use numbers with the X axis and the Z axis (depth) then the visual distance is different, whilst with the X and Y axis the visual distance would be the same.

oh and i like the simple black background with the pick from nasa, the rest are busy and confusing to me.

hope i helped, and good luck. i too tried a 3d map and failed, but i think yours is better so im sure you will do fine.