Food Chain

[PLAYER57832]

I like it but how big are you going to be able to have it as you may run out of fish for the food chain?

Uh.. there are more species of fish than all other vertebrates combined. This will not be a problem!

[PLAYER57832]

A couple of technical notes.

First, if you are sticking with a coral reef, maybe stick to either Australia or Florida/ Cuba or Hawaii. I can help you with names there if you like.

There is plenty of diversity. From what I can see, you are about there. The main difference it would make is some minor colorations and names of species. (all photos are readily available). If you are still seeking photos, look at the NOAH/National Marine Fisheries Service threads. Since they are government agencies, their photos are available to the public.

Also most of the popular Aquariums have nice pictures and many are non-copywritten, already released for duplication.

I like the bombardment idea. However, some fish do eat coral. Parrot fish, etc. You could just use them. Also what about making jellyfish that sting/bombard.
That is rather consistant with how they attack.

If you are looking for random elements (someone mentioned this earlier), you could use "white spotting" of coral. (no one really knows the cause, though pollution/rising sea temps are thought most likely).

Other than that, the ship at the bottom is a bit hard to see. Can you clarify it?

[miniwally]

I like it but how big are you going to be able to have it as you may run out of fish for the food chain?

Uh.. there are more species of fish than all other vertebrates combined. This will not be a problem!

i'm just saying that not all fish may be in the same food chain

[porkenbeans]

Click image to enlarge.

There is still room for 2 or 3 more animals under the turtle.

[john9blue]

Good schtuff pork. I'm compiling a list of predators/prey using this website. It's listed under "Habitat and Biology" for each species. You can use that if you want to get started, since I might not be done for a while... but for the sake of simplicity I'm not going to use every type of animal on there, so you might have to change things up a bit once I decide which species to keep.

[porkenbeans]

As it happens, I worked in the tropical fish industry when I was young. I managed a store or two, and even worked in a fish hatchery. So to say, what eats what ? trust me, I know.
Basically, It's very simple, big fish eat smaller fish. This rule however does not always apply. An example would be the Manta Ray, and whale Shark, The later being the largest fish on record. They only eat plankton and krill, the smallest of swimming things in the ocean.

So, what we have here is an exercise of grouping animals into what I see as 4 basic catigories.

1.) Top predators, included are; man, sharks.
2.) sperm whale, turtle, grouper.
3.) reef fish.
4.) scavengers, included are shrimp coral, and anemones.

All but the Manta will fit nicely into one these categories, I like the Manta picture, and would hate to see it eliminated. But that may be, what we need to do.

I would like to lobby once more on the game play, and how the chain bonuses work.
The game would be much more dynamic, if there were no established chains, IE; lines drawn on the map from animal to animal. Not only is it unattractive, it clutters up the map with unnecessary scribble. It also means that every game would be the same, with the same fish eating the same fish. By using the color code and letters, not only do you eliminate all the ugly lines, you create a dynamic game, in which it is different every time. a shark for example is feared by all, as so it should be in this game. Try to free yourself from the cookie cutter example of the majority of CC maps. Take a look at the maps that are unique. They are the special ones, and they are the popular ones.

[Rocketry]

Love the idea - You certainly need to add more territories though. Is it too ambitious to make the turtle 6 terts (inc legs?) A school of fish would be nice. Each fish is one tert, approk 5 overall. Keep up the good work.

Rocket.

[ManBungalow]

Click image to enlarge.

Did you draw that...purely original graphics ?!

[john9blue]

All right pork, I'll bite. Pun intended.

As I'm compiling this list it's starting to occur to me that anything will eat anything as long as it can kill it. So generally there will be different trophic levels (I think that's what we should call them, to keep things accurate) based on the aquatic pecking order. I'd estimate that 5 trophic levels will suffice for this map.

Who goes in what TL? Trying to use the most common animals, it goes something like this:

TL1- worm, snail, starfish, sea slug

TL2- herring, crab, octopus, lobster

TL3- squid, seal, dolphin, snapper

TL4- tuna, barracuda, swordfish, sea bass

TL5- sperm whale, shark, orca, marlin

So we've got 20 animals. Our goal will be to make all the animals in each TL balanced, because otherwise the different food chains wouldn't be the same. I say that each animal should have territories equal to TL + 1. So worm has 2 territories, dolphin has 4, and marlin has 6. That gives 80 territories in all, which is a pretty good number.

Now, each animal has a "head" territory that can attack any species on the previous TL. I think every species should have a "tail" territory too, which will be the part that is attacked. The other territories can be numbered or given names like "fin", "gills", "body", "body 1/2/3/4" or whatever. You can either arrange them in a pattern and draw lines, or just put them there and have every territory on an animal attack every other territory. I think it should be done the second way, that way you don't have to draw lines and it looks nicer.

Decomposition... this is the territory at the bottom next to TL1. It can attack the tail of any species, but it resets to 1 neutral each turn. The species on TL1 can all attack it.

Bonuses are given for holding an animal (+1, +1, +2, +2, +2), for holding a trophic level (+2, +4, +6, +8, +10), and for holding one animal in each TL, which we will call a Food Chain (+5). Two Food Chains cannot share more than one species. The XML might be difficult for that last one, I'll ask someone who knows later on....

I feel bad for eliminating most of the kickass stuff that's already there (coral, turtle, ray, human), but I think it would be both realistic (this is the ocean and not a reef) and better for gameplay (humans don't belong, lol). How does this all sound?

[porkenbeans]

Click image to enlarge.

Did you draw that...purely original graphics ?!

I have not yet taken the brush to anything. Everything you see is cut and paste from photographs. The objective is to create a cool map, NOT create a complete original piece of art.

[ustus]

aww.. i was all excited about the original idea... anyway, this should still turn out well, and i'll offer any ideas i have. I do like the tail to head and then on to another fish order of things... In fact, other than that it's not the original idea, this looks pretty sweet, i guess the other was just a MESS graphically... good luck, this should be a sweet map.

[porkenbeans]

John, I am following what you are saying, I think.
Your TLs' are a tad inaccurate though. Here is the basic rundown of the food chain from the bottom up.

What you call "the composition layer" is in fact all the microscopic creatures that feed off of one another and floating bits of organic matter. Included are Plankton and krill mostly.

Next you have the filter feeders that feed mainly off of these creatures. They include many animals small and large. Most are small, and consist of mostly invertebrates, coral, and anemones,

Then comes the scavengers. Most are filter feeders, but are mobile, and can attack small prey on occasion. Included are crustaceans, such as crabs and lobsters, also starfish and slugs. this group are the "janitors of the sea" as they clean up the place.

Next we have the predators, that attack and eat the janitors. Included are a myriad of creatures that feed off of each other and the scavengers as well. Included are just about everything that swims, but mainly fish such as the Grouper, and all fish with relatively large mouths.

The top predators keep the previous group in check, and assure that a balance is maintained.

This ecosystem is a very complicated process, and a lot of animals are not so easy to categorize. Take the rays and whale shark, (which are in fact part of the shark family). They only eat plankton and krill. They are filter feeders. But lobsters do not attack and eat them, even though they are in the group above them on the food chain.

For this reason I do not think that you need to worry so much about who actually eats whom. It is sufficient enough to just have the main categories represented.

1.) plankton.
2.) Filter-Feeders.
3.) Scavengers
4.) Predators.
5.) Top predators.

Also I do not think that you need to have an equal amount of creatures from each category. This scenario results in "The Build Game". It is better to have to fight for the Chain. Not having enough to go around, assures this.

If you want to make this map about the open sea, you are entering a whole different world of deep sea creatures. most live there lives in waters that light does not reach. This is almost an entirely different ecosystem.

For this reason I would like to suggest that we consider a map pack. There are creatures unique to certain regions of the world, so we could have numerous maps that represent these unique places. All we have to do is work out the basic categories, or TLs'. And the rest is just producing the images.

I really like the 3-D effect that this cut and paste style offers. It is in fact, a whole new Art Form, and lends itself perfectly to the underwater world. As a matter of fact, I would like to see this whole pack idea become The Map Factories first group project. It can be followed up later with your first idea of a jungle map. We can be known as the group that brought CC into the world of nature. No longer limited to just geography. I think that maybe we should put your name on this first map, so as to acknowledge, the father of this idea.

[john9blue]

Well I left out the first two of those levels because I thought that plankton got most of their energy from the sun. While researching detritivores, eaters of dead animal matter, I mostly came across the creatures I put in TL1. So I started from there and found their prey, and their prey, and so on. The creatures you call "janitors of the sea" are the ones that I thought would best start the cycle. If you could give some specific examples of plankton that eat detritus then I'd have something to work with. Also, it's fine if you add/change the creatures between TL's, but which ones, and why?

[porkenbeans]

Well I left out the first two of those levels because I thought that plankton got most of their energy from the sun. While researching detritivores, eaters of dead animal matter, I mostly came across the creatures I put in TL1. So I started from there and found their prey, and their prey, and so on. The creatures you call "janitors of the sea" are the ones that I thought would best start the cycle. If you could give some specific examples of plankton that eat detritus then I'd have something to work with. Also, it's fine if you add/change the creatures between TL's, but which ones, and why?

Here is where it gets a bit technical. We start to delve into the microscopic world (another good map idea). This is where the food chain actually starts. Nitrates and Nitrites are the tiniest forms of animals that live in the ocean. They are so small that millions of them inhabit every drop of water. If their eco system is unbalanced everything that breathes water, dies. I used the term plankton (a plant) earlier, in an attempt to generalize how the food chain can be traced down to smaller and smaller things. I should have stuck to just saying "krill". Anyways you get the idea. I think that fishydance could be of use here, as she is in the fish business, I think ?
Anyways, although plankton is not an animal, it is the bottom of the food chain in the macro world. Krill would be the smallest animals that we can see with the naked eye. They feed off of either plankton or nitrates, I think. It's Been a while, some 30 years, since I was versed in this world.

Worms are not part of the oceans food chain,
octopus and squid are in the same family and group,

Nitrates, Nitrites and Plankton would be at the first level for our purposes. better yet I suggest that this level be left out.
Filter-Feeders would be next.
Then comes scavengers.
followed by Predators.
The top predators can stand as a separate group, because no one preys upon them.

This is a game, so the actual "who eats who" is unimportant. So long as we put each animal in its proper class.

[john9blue]

Here is where it gets a bit technical. We start to delve into the microscopic world (another good map idea). This is where the food chain actually starts. Nitrates and Nitrites are the tiniest forms of animals that live in the ocean. They are so small that millions of them inhabit every drop of water. If their eco system is unbalanced everything that breathes water, dies. I used the term plankton (a plant) earlier, in an attempt to generalize how the food chain can be traced down to smaller and smaller things. I should have stuck to just saying "krill". Anyways you get the idea. I think that fishydance could be of use here, as she is in the fish business, I think ?
Anyways, although plankton is not an animal, it is the bottom of the food chain in the macro world. Krill would be the smallest animals that we can see with the naked eye. They feed off of either plankton or nitrates, I think. It's Been a while, some 30 years, since I was versed in this world.

Worms are not part of the oceans food chain,
octopus and squid are in the same family and group,

Nitrates, Nitrites and Plankton would be at the first level for our purposes. better yet I suggest that this level be left out.
Filter-Feeders would be next.
Then comes scavengers.
followed by Predators.
The top predators can stand as a separate group, because no one preys upon them.

This is a game, so the actual "who eats who" is unimportant. So long as we put each animal in its proper class.

I remember reading some of this stuff recently. I guess I should state the problem I see explicitly: putting in the filter feeders gives up two undesirable options. We can have them feed upon decomposition/detritus/whatever we call it and sacrifice factual accuracy, or have the scavengers feed upon it and make the filter feeders only accessible through decomposition. What I think is that we should start the food chain with the animals that eat detritus, so it becomes a perfect cycle. Of course we are leaving out important links in the chain, but it's for the sake of gameplay.

Worms are definitely part of the food chain. I guess if you want to get classy you can rename it to "Nematode".

Octopus and squid are both shellless cephalopods (they share the same subclass), but that's where the taxonomic distinction ends. Squids eat larger prey than octopi (giant squids can even take on small sharks) so I put them a level higher.

Again, if you can make plankton and filter feeders fit in somewhere, go for it, but I think it contradicts the core gameplay of this map.

[porkenbeans]

It doesn't contradict it. Filter feeders do in fact, eat ALL of the creatures of the sea. Sharks, although they have no predators, do eventually die, and there remains are gathered up by scavengers and Filter Feeders. For this reason, the bottom of the food chain should be able to bombard, but not conquer all other species.

Octopus and squid both have many different varieties. some large, and some small. the giant squid is believed to be the largest of the cephalopods. But is still in the same class as its brother the octopus. A great white shark for example is in the same classification as its much smaller brothers in the shark family.

But I think that we are getting a little to wrapped up in trying to nail down the exact details of who eats whom. Like I said, this is a game. Just make a picture, assign the TLs', and get the project on to the next stage. There are a shitload of maps just waiting to be born. Lets not try to be so precise that it bogs us down. I am sure that the foundry snobs will want to do enough nitpicking for the both of us.
I am eager to start another one of these underwater maps. Like maybe a fresh water one.
I haven't heard anything from sailor, so maybe you might want to start the process of getting our group organized. I have a list of 16 or so players that are eager to participate in our group. I think that we need to whittle it down to a dozen. After that the first thing to be done is, decide on our first 5 or 6 map projects. Research needs to be assigned, as I work out the rough drafts. Lets not try to paint the Cistien Chapel on the first project. It is very beautiful, but it took many years to complete. I do not have that much Patience for that. I'm talking more Andi Warhal, with a masterpiece completed in an afternoon.
OOOps my Poker turny just popped up gotta go. Will pick this back up later.

By the way, wcaclimbing is eager to be with us. I would like to get him evolved A.S.A.P.

[john9blue]

I don't think we should have TL1 bombard everything, since it attacks decomposition, which attacks every tail. It would give them too much control, compounded by the fact that they are easy bonuses to get.

Anyway, it seems to me like we have two different ideas of what detritus means. If it gets really small then it can be eaten by filter feeders, but otherwise you get stuff like starfish and nematodes that eat chunks of it. Feel free to make the first TL filter feeders if you want, it's fine by me. I guess it's not as far-fetched as I first assumed, I just had a different mental image.

Six TL's is a bit much, though. How about this:

TL1- 5 filter feeders of your choice

TL2- worm, snail, starfish, sea slug, crab

TL3- herring, octopus, lobster, squid, snapper

TL4- dolphin, seal, tuna, swordfish, sea bass

TL5- barracuda, sperm whale, shark, orca, marlin

25 animals and 100 territories... nice round numbers.

The map already has enough attack routes and different sized bonuses happening, and I think it would simplify things if there were the same amount of species for each level. Just me being worried about gameplay balance, I guess you could say. 5 TL's with 5 each is fine.

About the usergroup... I don't see where exactly they would come in for the production of this map. Since the two of us are most likely capable enough to finish this map ourselves, that's what we should do. It would probably be better if everyone started from scratch, or even if people submitted drafts and voted on them. Then we would work on a few of the most popular drafts. Also, I've got projects outside the group, so I will probably be a guy who will do graphics/gameplay/XML when needed.

Now NO MORE PICKING NITS for me... time to actually start this thing.

[pinkflaminko]

I liked the doodle version a lot, maybe you can make it kinda doodly and really pictury and what it already is. It keeps ppl excited to have a little doodle on it. Seriously take it into consideration. Overall, its awesome, I would never think of something like this.

[ustus]

??

what doodlyness??

[pinkflaminko]

It looks cool, I mean, just look at his first version, its both hilarious and more entertaining! Its fun to deploy on a doodly octopus than a small picture of one, am I right?

[porkenbeans]

I don't think we should have TL1 bombard everything, since it attacks decomposition, which attacks every tail. It would give them too much control, compounded by the fact that they are easy bonuses to get.

Anyway, it seems to me like we have two different ideas of what detritus means. If it gets really small then it can be eaten by filter feeders, but otherwise you get stuff like starfish and nematodes that eat chunks of it. Feel free to make the first TL filter feeders if you want, it's fine by me. I guess it's not as far-fetched as I first assumed, I just had a different mental image.

Six TL's is a bit much, though. How about this:

TL1- 5 filter feeders of your choice

TL2- worm, snail, starfish, sea slug, crab

TL3- herring, octopus, lobster, squid, snapper

TL4- dolphin, seal, tuna, swordfish, sea bass

TL5- barracuda, sperm whale, shark, orca, marlin

25 animals and 100 territories... nice round numbers.

The map already has enough attack routes and different sized bonuses happening, and I think it would simplify things if there were the same amount of species for each level. Just me being worried about gameplay balance, I guess you could say. 5 TL's with 5 each is fine.

About the usergroup... I don't see where exactly they would come in for the production of this map. Since the two of us are most likely capable enough to finish this map ourselves, that's what we should do. It would probably be better if everyone started from scratch, or even if people submitted drafts and voted on them. Then we would work on a few of the most popular drafts. Also, I've got projects outside the group, so I will probably be a guy who will do graphics/gameplay/XML when needed.

Now NO MORE PICKING NITS for me... time to actually start this thing.

OK, sounds good to me. What we need at this point is a place where we can talk amongst ourselves. Sailor has gone A.W.O.L. it seems. So I don't know what the status of our application is. To any of you that know exactly how this works, please find out, and/or make this happen. I am very eager to get this thing organized, so I can roll up my sleeves and get to work.

[ustus]

What we need at this point is a place where we can talk amongst ourselves. Sailor has gone A.W.O.L. it seems. So I don't know what the status of our application is. To any of you that know exactly how this works, please find out, and/or make this happen. I am very eager to get this thing organized, so I can roll up my sleeves and get to work.

what he said...

[porkenbeans]

update, I have room for 3-6 more animals. What would you like to see ?

Click image to enlarge.

[LED ZEPPELINER]

if this is the map, it doesn't belong in the drafting room

[ManBungalow]

Click image to enlarge.

Did you draw that...purely original graphics ?!

I have not yet taken the brush to anything. Everything you see is cut and paste from photographs. The objective is to create a cool map, NOT create a complete original piece of art.

You may have a copyright issue at some point