Food Chain

[ustus]

aww.. i was all excited about the original idea... anyway, this should still turn out well, and i'll offer any ideas i have. I do like the tail to head and then on to another fish order of things... In fact, other than that it's not the original idea, this looks pretty sweet, i guess the other was just a MESS graphically... good luck, this should be a sweet map.

[porkenbeans]

John, I am following what you are saying, I think.
Your TLs' are a tad inaccurate though. Here is the basic rundown of the food chain from the bottom up.

What you call "the composition layer" is in fact all the microscopic creatures that feed off of one another and floating bits of organic matter. Included are Plankton and krill mostly.

Next you have the filter feeders that feed mainly off of these creatures. They include many animals small and large. Most are small, and consist of mostly invertebrates, coral, and anemones,

Then comes the scavengers. Most are filter feeders, but are mobile, and can attack small prey on occasion. Included are crustaceans, such as crabs and lobsters, also starfish and slugs. this group are the "janitors of the sea" as they clean up the place.

Next we have the predators, that attack and eat the janitors. Included are a myriad of creatures that feed off of each other and the scavengers as well. Included are just about everything that swims, but mainly fish such as the Grouper, and all fish with relatively large mouths.

The top predators keep the previous group in check, and assure that a balance is maintained.

This ecosystem is a very complicated process, and a lot of animals are not so easy to categorize. Take the rays and whale shark, (which are in fact part of the shark family). They only eat plankton and krill. They are filter feeders. But lobsters do not attack and eat them, even though they are in the group above them on the food chain.

For this reason I do not think that you need to worry so much about who actually eats whom. It is sufficient enough to just have the main categories represented.

1.) plankton.
2.) Filter-Feeders.
3.) Scavengers
4.) Predators.
5.) Top predators.

Also I do not think that you need to have an equal amount of creatures from each category. This scenario results in "The Build Game". It is better to have to fight for the Chain. Not having enough to go around, assures this.

If you want to make this map about the open sea, you are entering a whole different world of deep sea creatures. most live there lives in waters that light does not reach. This is almost an entirely different ecosystem.

For this reason I would like to suggest that we consider a map pack. There are creatures unique to certain regions of the world, so we could have numerous maps that represent these unique places. All we have to do is work out the basic categories, or TLs'. And the rest is just producing the images.

I really like the 3-D effect that this cut and paste style offers. It is in fact, a whole new Art Form, and lends itself perfectly to the underwater world. As a matter of fact, I would like to see this whole pack idea become The Map Factories first group project. It can be followed up later with your first idea of a jungle map. We can be known as the group that brought CC into the world of nature. No longer limited to just geography. I think that maybe we should put your name on this first map, so as to acknowledge, the father of this idea.

[john9blue]

Well I left out the first two of those levels because I thought that plankton got most of their energy from the sun. While researching detritivores, eaters of dead animal matter, I mostly came across the creatures I put in TL1. So I started from there and found their prey, and their prey, and so on. The creatures you call "janitors of the sea" are the ones that I thought would best start the cycle. If you could give some specific examples of plankton that eat detritus then I'd have something to work with. Also, it's fine if you add/change the creatures between TL's, but which ones, and why?

[porkenbeans]

Well I left out the first two of those levels because I thought that plankton got most of their energy from the sun. While researching detritivores, eaters of dead animal matter, I mostly came across the creatures I put in TL1. So I started from there and found their prey, and their prey, and so on. The creatures you call "janitors of the sea" are the ones that I thought would best start the cycle. If you could give some specific examples of plankton that eat detritus then I'd have something to work with. Also, it's fine if you add/change the creatures between TL's, but which ones, and why?

Here is where it gets a bit technical. We start to delve into the microscopic world (another good map idea). This is where the food chain actually starts. Nitrates and Nitrites are the tiniest forms of animals that live in the ocean. They are so small that millions of them inhabit every drop of water. If their eco system is unbalanced everything that breathes water, dies. I used the term plankton (a plant) earlier, in an attempt to generalize how the food chain can be traced down to smaller and smaller things. I should have stuck to just saying "krill". Anyways you get the idea. I think that fishydance could be of use here, as she is in the fish business, I think ?
Anyways, although plankton is not an animal, it is the bottom of the food chain in the macro world. Krill would be the smallest animals that we can see with the naked eye. They feed off of either plankton or nitrates, I think. It's Been a while, some 30 years, since I was versed in this world.

Worms are not part of the oceans food chain,
octopus and squid are in the same family and group,

Nitrates, Nitrites and Plankton would be at the first level for our purposes. better yet I suggest that this level be left out.
Filter-Feeders would be next.
Then comes scavengers.
followed by Predators.
The top predators can stand as a separate group, because no one preys upon them.

This is a game, so the actual "who eats who" is unimportant. So long as we put each animal in its proper class.

[john9blue]

Here is where it gets a bit technical. We start to delve into the microscopic world (another good map idea). This is where the food chain actually starts. Nitrates and Nitrites are the tiniest forms of animals that live in the ocean. They are so small that millions of them inhabit every drop of water. If their eco system is unbalanced everything that breathes water, dies. I used the term plankton (a plant) earlier, in an attempt to generalize how the food chain can be traced down to smaller and smaller things. I should have stuck to just saying "krill". Anyways you get the idea. I think that fishydance could be of use here, as she is in the fish business, I think ?
Anyways, although plankton is not an animal, it is the bottom of the food chain in the macro world. Krill would be the smallest animals that we can see with the naked eye. They feed off of either plankton or nitrates, I think. It's Been a while, some 30 years, since I was versed in this world.

Worms are not part of the oceans food chain,
octopus and squid are in the same family and group,

Nitrates, Nitrites and Plankton would be at the first level for our purposes. better yet I suggest that this level be left out.
Filter-Feeders would be next.
Then comes scavengers.
followed by Predators.
The top predators can stand as a separate group, because no one preys upon them.

This is a game, so the actual "who eats who" is unimportant. So long as we put each animal in its proper class.

I remember reading some of this stuff recently. I guess I should state the problem I see explicitly: putting in the filter feeders gives up two undesirable options. We can have them feed upon decomposition/detritus/whatever we call it and sacrifice factual accuracy, or have the scavengers feed upon it and make the filter feeders only accessible through decomposition. What I think is that we should start the food chain with the animals that eat detritus, so it becomes a perfect cycle. Of course we are leaving out important links in the chain, but it's for the sake of gameplay.

Worms are definitely part of the food chain. I guess if you want to get classy you can rename it to "Nematode".

Octopus and squid are both shellless cephalopods (they share the same subclass), but that's where the taxonomic distinction ends. Squids eat larger prey than octopi (giant squids can even take on small sharks) so I put them a level higher.

Again, if you can make plankton and filter feeders fit in somewhere, go for it, but I think it contradicts the core gameplay of this map.

[porkenbeans]

It doesn't contradict it. Filter feeders do in fact, eat ALL of the creatures of the sea. Sharks, although they have no predators, do eventually die, and there remains are gathered up by scavengers and Filter Feeders. For this reason, the bottom of the food chain should be able to bombard, but not conquer all other species.

Octopus and squid both have many different varieties. some large, and some small. the giant squid is believed to be the largest of the cephalopods. But is still in the same class as its brother the octopus. A great white shark for example is in the same classification as its much smaller brothers in the shark family.

But I think that we are getting a little to wrapped up in trying to nail down the exact details of who eats whom. Like I said, this is a game. Just make a picture, assign the TLs', and get the project on to the next stage. There are a shitload of maps just waiting to be born. Lets not try to be so precise that it bogs us down. I am sure that the foundry snobs will want to do enough nitpicking for the both of us.
I am eager to start another one of these underwater maps. Like maybe a fresh water one.
I haven't heard anything from sailor, so maybe you might want to start the process of getting our group organized. I have a list of 16 or so players that are eager to participate in our group. I think that we need to whittle it down to a dozen. After that the first thing to be done is, decide on our first 5 or 6 map projects. Research needs to be assigned, as I work out the rough drafts. Lets not try to paint the Cistien Chapel on the first project. It is very beautiful, but it took many years to complete. I do not have that much Patience for that. I'm talking more Andi Warhal, with a masterpiece completed in an afternoon.
OOOps my Poker turny just popped up gotta go. Will pick this back up later.

By the way, wcaclimbing is eager to be with us. I would like to get him evolved A.S.A.P.

[john9blue]

I don't think we should have TL1 bombard everything, since it attacks decomposition, which attacks every tail. It would give them too much control, compounded by the fact that they are easy bonuses to get.

Anyway, it seems to me like we have two different ideas of what detritus means. If it gets really small then it can be eaten by filter feeders, but otherwise you get stuff like starfish and nematodes that eat chunks of it. Feel free to make the first TL filter feeders if you want, it's fine by me. I guess it's not as far-fetched as I first assumed, I just had a different mental image.

Six TL's is a bit much, though. How about this:

TL1- 5 filter feeders of your choice

TL2- worm, snail, starfish, sea slug, crab

TL3- herring, octopus, lobster, squid, snapper

TL4- dolphin, seal, tuna, swordfish, sea bass

TL5- barracuda, sperm whale, shark, orca, marlin

25 animals and 100 territories... nice round numbers.

The map already has enough attack routes and different sized bonuses happening, and I think it would simplify things if there were the same amount of species for each level. Just me being worried about gameplay balance, I guess you could say. 5 TL's with 5 each is fine.

About the usergroup... I don't see where exactly they would come in for the production of this map. Since the two of us are most likely capable enough to finish this map ourselves, that's what we should do. It would probably be better if everyone started from scratch, or even if people submitted drafts and voted on them. Then we would work on a few of the most popular drafts. Also, I've got projects outside the group, so I will probably be a guy who will do graphics/gameplay/XML when needed.

Now NO MORE PICKING NITS for me... time to actually start this thing.

[pinkflaminko]

I liked the doodle version a lot, maybe you can make it kinda doodly and really pictury and what it already is. It keeps ppl excited to have a little doodle on it. Seriously take it into consideration. Overall, its awesome, I would never think of something like this.

[ustus]

??

what doodlyness??

[pinkflaminko]

It looks cool, I mean, just look at his first version, its both hilarious and more entertaining! Its fun to deploy on a doodly octopus than a small picture of one, am I right?

[porkenbeans]

I don't think we should have TL1 bombard everything, since it attacks decomposition, which attacks every tail. It would give them too much control, compounded by the fact that they are easy bonuses to get.

Anyway, it seems to me like we have two different ideas of what detritus means. If it gets really small then it can be eaten by filter feeders, but otherwise you get stuff like starfish and nematodes that eat chunks of it. Feel free to make the first TL filter feeders if you want, it's fine by me. I guess it's not as far-fetched as I first assumed, I just had a different mental image.

Six TL's is a bit much, though. How about this:

TL1- 5 filter feeders of your choice

TL2- worm, snail, starfish, sea slug, crab

TL3- herring, octopus, lobster, squid, snapper

TL4- dolphin, seal, tuna, swordfish, sea bass

TL5- barracuda, sperm whale, shark, orca, marlin

25 animals and 100 territories... nice round numbers.

The map already has enough attack routes and different sized bonuses happening, and I think it would simplify things if there were the same amount of species for each level. Just me being worried about gameplay balance, I guess you could say. 5 TL's with 5 each is fine.

About the usergroup... I don't see where exactly they would come in for the production of this map. Since the two of us are most likely capable enough to finish this map ourselves, that's what we should do. It would probably be better if everyone started from scratch, or even if people submitted drafts and voted on them. Then we would work on a few of the most popular drafts. Also, I've got projects outside the group, so I will probably be a guy who will do graphics/gameplay/XML when needed.

Now NO MORE PICKING NITS for me... time to actually start this thing.

OK, sounds good to me. What we need at this point is a place where we can talk amongst ourselves. Sailor has gone A.W.O.L. it seems. So I don't know what the status of our application is. To any of you that know exactly how this works, please find out, and/or make this happen. I am very eager to get this thing organized, so I can roll up my sleeves and get to work.

[ustus]

What we need at this point is a place where we can talk amongst ourselves. Sailor has gone A.W.O.L. it seems. So I don't know what the status of our application is. To any of you that know exactly how this works, please find out, and/or make this happen. I am very eager to get this thing organized, so I can roll up my sleeves and get to work.

what he said...

[porkenbeans]

update, I have room for 3-6 more animals. What would you like to see ?

Click image to enlarge.

[LED ZEPPELINER]

if this is the map, it doesn't belong in the drafting room

[ManBungalow]

Click image to enlarge.

Did you draw that...purely original graphics ?!

I have not yet taken the brush to anything. Everything you see is cut and paste from photographs. The objective is to create a cool map, NOT create a complete original piece of art.

You may have a copyright issue at some point

[porkenbeans]

Click image to enlarge.

Did you draw that...purely original graphics ?!

I have not yet taken the brush to anything. Everything you see is cut and paste from photographs. The objective is to create a cool map, NOT create a complete original piece of art.

You may have a copyright issue at some point

Most are free to use, One or two however, I may need to seek permission. There are countless "free to use" images on the web. so this will be a "non-problem".
I am NOT trying to hide the fact that this map is cut and paste. In fact, it is the whole point. The internet world has combined with photoshop. It has spawned a new art form, and you see it everywhere. Some of it is good, and some, not so much. A good 75% of CC maps have been aided by google earth or Virtual world. The only difference between them and myself is, I am not trying to hide it. The San Fransisco map comes to mind. The internal texture is faded in a clear attempt to hide the fact that it IS a satellite photo. Even the maps that do not use the internal texture began on google earth, or someone elses map.

[PLAYER57832]

OKay, call me picky, but former fish biologist who used to study ocean fish for a living.

First, your last comment... that the open ocean is very differant from a reef, etc is quite true. John seems to be mostly centering on a generalized mid-trophic/continental shelf region. Not "open ocean" (where light never sees the bottom) and not reef (where you have structure and light generally penetrates all the way).

For that region, I have to make a couple of corrections/clarifications

John, I am following what you are saying, I think.
Your TLs' are a tad inaccurate though. Here is the basic rundown of the food chain from the bottom up.

What you call "the composition layer" is in fact all the microscopic creatures that feed off of one another and floating bits of organic matter. Included are Plankton and krill mostly..

Clarification. This is really 3 differant groups. You actually have a mini ecosystem or "food chain" at the microscopic and just above microscopic (we can see them, but they are small) level

Phytoplankton are the bottom, they absorb sunlight. Also at the base is detritus (the general term for all decomposing/accumulated "matter". Zooplankton generally eat phytoplankton and detritus.. Larger zoo plankton eat smaller zooplankton, phytoplankton and detritus. Fish larvae generally eat either phytoplankton or zooplankton or detritus.

"composition zone" is actually a term used, though it is one of those things that is not universally recognized (note-- few things to do with fish are. If you want the US official terms, consult American Fisheries society or NationaL Marine Fisheries Service). Essentially what it refers to is that this is the "building" layer, that these animals convert sunlight to useable fuel.

Next you have the filter feeders that feed mainly off of these creatures. They include many animals small and large. Most are small, and consist of mostly invertebrates, coral, and anemones,

These also include baleen whales and many fish.

A term I learned, though it may be out of date (I will check if you wish to be that technical), is secondary predators or simply the next layer of the food web.

Then comes the scavengers. Most are filter feeders, but are mobile, and can attack small prey on occasion. Included are crustaceans, such as crabs and lobsters, also starfish and slugs. this group are the "janitors of the sea" as they clean up the place.

Scavengers may be filter feeders, but the two are separate terms. Filter feeders eat largely living matter from the water column. Scavengers specifically eat the dead/dying stuff. These include many fish, too.

This is really a side chain to the above, not a next layer. That is, there is one group that ultimately arises from things the sun and another that more or less arises from dead stuff. (and a third.. the chemical energy absorbers, but they can be left out here)

These include many fish, too.

Next we have the predators, that attack and eat the janitors. Included are a myriad of creatures that feed off of each other and the scavengers as well. Included are just about everything that swims, but mainly fish such as the Grouper, and all fish with relatively large mouths.

Predators eat from all levels of the column. The distinction is not so much what they eat, but how they obtain it. If they eat living prey, they are predators. If they wait for it to die, they are scavengers. If they sift it out of the water column, they are filter feeders. The terms overlap and include many invertebrates and vertebrates.

The top predators keep the previous group in check, and assure that a balance is maintained.

This is essentially true, but again.. "predators" really covers many levels in the food chain.

This ecosystem is a very complicated process, and a lot of animals are not so easy to categorize. Take the rays and whale shark, (which are in fact part of the shark family). They only eat plankton and krill. They are filter feeders. But lobsters do not attack and eat them, even though they are in the group above them on the food chain.

This is why it is a "food web" in any modern textbooks and not a "food chain".

For this reason I do not think that you need to worry so much about who actually eats whom. It is sufficient enough to just have the main categories represented.

1.) plankton.
2.) Filter-Feeders.
3.) Scavengers
4.) Predators.
5.) Top predators.

Also I do not think that you need to have an equal amount of creatures from each category. This scenario results in "The Build Game". It is better to have to fight for the Chain. Not having enough to go around, assures this.

To a point, I agree. I don't think you need to be too picky about what goes where. I completely disagree with the categories you have here, but again, accuracy is not necessarily critical, though, if you wish to be accurate, it is not difficult.

As for the numbers, it is actually good to have more at the lower levels.

One thing to consider is that the ocean is really a series of trophic levels. EACH level has its own set of base species, next level predators, etc.

If you want to make this map about the open sea, you are entering a whole different world of deep sea creatures. most live there lives in waters that light does not reach. This is almost an entirely different ecosystem.

For this reason I would like to suggest that we consider a map pack. There are creatures unique to certain regions of the world, so we could have numerous maps that represent these unique places. All we have to do is work out the basic categories, or TLs'. And the rest is just producing the images.

The differant ecosystem is prefectly true, but for that reason you might not want to just use the same format. It can get repetetive to play exactly the same maps with only minor variations over and over. I know nothing about map creation, but it seems like using some of your ideas above would be fun... bombardments, remote attacks, etc. You could even have one that involved pollution.

If you need any technical help on fish/ocean specifics or even just good places to get that information (having "vetted" several), let me know.

[PLAYER57832]

Which map is now being used? I am confused.

[porkenbeans]

Which map is now being used? I am confused.

Are you interested in joining The Map Factory ? viewtopic.php?f=273&t=80865&p=1915851#p1915851

[john9blue]

Thanks for the comments Player. I was thinking about PMing you but figured you might not need to be bothered as we almost had things worked out. So, if you were to organize species into trophic levels for the mid-depth region of the ocean, starting with the species that eat decomposed animal matter, how would you do it? Or is it not that simple?

[MrBenn]

[Moved]

This map has been moved into the Ideas subforum, as it does not meet the criteria for a Working Draft. In fact, this thread has me generally confused

Drafting Room Guidelines

To be considered a Working Draft a project must be more than just an idea; a Draft should have a clear thematic focus, a plan for how the gameplay will work, and a basic image which should include:

1. Territory Labels - temporary names or numbers will suffice, and are always open to change.
2. Borders/Paths/Impassables - it should be made clear where territories do/do not connect.
3. Bonus Areas - where combinations/groups of territories will award a bonus, this should be indicated on the map.
4. Legend - speculative bonus values and explanations of any attack rules or gameplay features.

Draft images should not be larger than 630x600px (small image) or 840x800px (large image).

[porkenbeans]

[Moved]

This map has been moved into the Ideas subforum, as it does not meet the criteria for a Working Draft. In fact, this thread has me generally confused

Drafting Room Guidelines

To be considered a Working Draft a project must be more than just an idea; a Draft should have a clear thematic focus, a plan for how the gameplay will work, and a basic image which should include:

1. Territory Labels - temporary names or numbers will suffice, and are always open to change.
2. Borders/Paths/Impassables - it should be made clear where territories do/do not connect.
3. Bonus Areas - where combinations/groups of territories will award a bonus, this should be indicated on the map.
4. Legend - speculative bonus values and explanations of any attack rules or gameplay features.

Draft images should not be larger than 630x600px (small image) or 840x800px (large image).

What are you confused about Benn ?
This thread was started by john. He threw up a crude draft, and asked "If anyone thought it was a good idea". A few of us here thought, that it was a good enough idea, to devote 6 pages to it.
If it is important to you "where" this thread should be located. Then move it, if you see fit.

Your confusion, is confusing me.

[john9blue]

Player and I are hammering out the food web now, trying to decide which species should be included. We're almost done.

[sailorseal]

I am honestly offended by this image he was a great man

Hey, I was just messing around... Steve Irwin was awesome.

On a less offensive note, Nate, I thought about putting humans in there. Being able to bombard any fish... it would be nice, but probably make the game over-centralized.

I like this idea

[thenobodies80]

Hi john,
i PMed you some info, but if you will update your first image with the actual species and decisions about "attack routes" i can give you a final answer about this:

Maybe about 42 species or so (not counting decomposition, of course), and the food chains will have different bonuses based on how many species are involved. You can get multiple bonuses, but they can't share more than one species. I'm hoping this is possible with the current XML, because Conquer 4 has a very similar gameplay mechanic (can I get confirmation on this? yeti? cairns? Bueller?). Decomposition resets to 1 neutral each turn.

Have a nice day

TNBDS