[Vacation] Allegheny Forest,PA,USA. [I]

[seamusk]

first off, the colours are too similar. i like the (is it?) drop shadow.

Were the colors before ok? I actually didn't change them but did something that flattened them. So I could easily restore. And if you mean the effects on the continents that is a bevel with drop shadow.

the trees are too big and look like they are impassibles in some places (or are they? i can't tell if they're supposed to be or not...) and look kinda cluttered

yeah. that should be obvious to me but wasn't. They are meant to be impassables. I am going to try shrinking the trees. Note i'm not gonna make anymore legend changes for now but that would eventually be noted there somehow.

the red map symbols (ranger stations, wilderness trees, etc.) look out of place, and don't go with the newer colour scheme.

oh do i ever agree! already started pulling together clip art to replace.

the bridges are A LOT better, but hard to see behind the trees.

ok at least that is one keeper. danfrank liked them too.

i liked the old trail better than these dots.

me too. they are blurry too.

the new rivers are blocking some of the red map symbols, especially in the lower right.
the bottom left text box needs to be a different colour.

ok. these are to dos.

why does the top river have to be outlined when the others are not?

well, they don't I guess. I had kept it that way justifying that that was the reservour but I think I should remove. Though the main reason was that the rivers looked kind of bad up there. I should just fix the rivers. to do.

the graphis have greatly improved (in my opinion)
good job and good luck!

thanks rocky! great comments. Very substantive and very helpful.

[RjBeals]

Nice work on the trees. We need more tree's on CC maps.

[conquerAce]

I haven't looked at this map in a couple of weeks i guess. It has come a long way. I really like the colours of the Watersheds, the muted shading makes me feel like i'm really in the wilderness.

Did you add texture to the rivers or am i seeing things.... it looks like there's some white water in those rivers.

Any word on if this is going to be developed as a map?

[gimil]

[adv. idea]

[seamusk]

I haven't looked at this map in a couple of weeks i guess. It has come a long way. I really like the colours of the Watersheds, the muted shading makes me feel like i'm really in the wilderness.

Did you add texture to the rivers or am i seeing things.... it looks like there's some white water in those rivers.

Any word on if this is going to be developed as a map?

hey ace. yeah, I put a little white in that water. Well, I used an effect in a way that makes it look that way too. I'm not done with them yet but they do look better so far. Technically there is no white in that water. All slow moving waters pretty much. But for map presentation it looks better. Though there are a lot of rocks and ripples so the white isn't totally unrealistic. But its plateau so the water isn't going downhill in dramatic fashion.

I need to figure out how to keep the muting with contrast effectively. and hoo yah gimil for adv idea status!

[gimil]

Youve shown you committment but this map has pretty much no graphical appeal. If you wanna move this map forward its going to take more than just "some work".

I dont know where to start.

1. Its far to cluttered with rubbish both graphics and gameplay wise.

2. The colour pallet is rather bland and boaring.

[seamusk]

1. Its far to cluttered with rubbish both graphics and gameplay wise.

Would you mind being more specific. Graphically I can see clutter. I'm not sure what you mean by rubbish though. If you could explain that that might help prevent me from moving in a "rubbish" direction without realizing it.

As for gameplay, I'm not sure what it is that you think is rubbish. Gameplay is basically classic style, with a feudal-like start (cities like castles, villages like villages). There is a trail and canoe trails that act like a rail lines and ranger stations which act like ports. Other than that there is the Wilderness and Oil & Gas bonuses. Everything else is pretty much standard control your continents, build territories, stuff. The map has a lot of territories so territory building will be important.

I could simplify in many ways. I've been thinking of simply making Buckaloons a village. The map is meant to be free flowing in some respects so that aspect is intentional. I like the canoe/trail/ranger station movements and they aren't really non-standard at all, but they are unique which is important for map review according to the handbook. I'd be reluctant to remove the Wilderness/Oil & gas mechanisms, though i'm open to modifying them. But without more specifics I know not what to do with them.

2. The colour pallet is rather bland and boaring.

i hear ya. Was the pallete prior to the latest update bland and boring to you too? Just asking to make sure I head in a good direction. Like you said about yourself, i'm not so good with colors. My wife usually fixes them for me. not kidding.

Edited to add that I am trying to somehow identify a color scheme that is muted (and reminds one of the wild forest) but also bright (and thereby encourages one to feel good while playing).

[seamusk]

and yet another map update.

Here is what I have done:

I shrunk the trees
I restored the old trail and extended to muzette
Replaced red icons with new ones
I built in a thick forest on northwest border - tentatively planning to extend
made buckaloons a village (removing one extra gameplay feature to track in legend)

Here is what I have not done:

finished with the trees
done anything with watershed labels
fixed continent bevel on two areas
and o so much more

Click image to enlarge.

[TaCktiX]

Two graphical concerns:

- The hiking trail looks like it was done in Paint, and alongside all the rapidly improving graphics, it's out of place. I'd suggest instead of the footpath look, go with a dusty trail of sorts. Some noise addition on a straight brown layer should do the trick.

- The villages and towns are out of place. They just don't "fit" with the look of the map you're trying to create. I would suggest a slightly more square and less cartoon-y look.

[AndyDufresne]

A few other graphic issues:

**The trees look oddly too realistic (when compared to other areas of the map) and pasted on top of the map.
**Additionally, the rivers could most certainly be cleaned up. They are pixely, sometimes a black outline, sometimes not, generally pretty jagged, and look 'drawn' on the map rather than a part of the map.
**Work on the territory division lines. They seem to be of random thickness and and haphazardly drawn.

Also, is there a more fitting term for the theme of the map...other than "areas" ? (I.E. consider the Berlin map, and it referencing "zones")

Work on the numbering system for the map...make it clear and simple. Right now numbered circles are all over and stand out.

Also, whenever you've got a better image of the cities (which look odd by the way), move Bradford north of the territory, rather than having it to the right. That frees up some Pixels of space on the right side of the map...so you can move the gameboard off the legend. You might have to remove the compass, but it seems like a filler and not that important.


--Andy

[seamusk]

- The hiking trail looks like it was done in Paint, and alongside all the rapidly improving graphics, it's out of place. I'd suggest instead of the footpath look, go with a dusty trail of sorts. Some noise addition on a straight brown layer should do the trick.

I certainly won't argue with this. I'll try your idea. It is a trick to get it so that it looks good without blending too much.

- The villages and towns are out of place. They just don't "fit" with the look of the map you're trying to create. I would suggest a slightly more square and less cartoon-y look.

I see Andy agree with this. I actually prefer the cartoony town look. Goes with the tents and canoes I just brought in. But also, rather than trying too hard to make the map lifelike, I am trying to make it clean out of all the villages and cities I found these were the best in that regards. Plus they have a sort of earthy look. Not saying I can't do better and I'll certainly look into other options. Just not sure I'll be changing those. But if enough people say as you do I most likely will.

[seamusk]

**The trees look oddly too realistic (when compared to other areas of the map) and pasted on top of the map.

well, i'm somewhat going for the pasted on look. It isn't my goal to replicate a forest but mainly to just give the feel of the forest. That said, part of the fakeness is that the trees aren't all properly shaped. I distorted the evergreens to look more like forest trees. I think that worked well. I need to do something similar with the rest I think. Please comment onthe next update and see if it resolves your concerns or not.

**Additionally, the rivers could most certainly be cleaned up. They are pixely, sometimes a black outline, sometimes not, generally pretty jagged, and look 'drawn' on the map rather than a part of the map.

yeah, already on today list to finish cleaning those up.

**Work on the territory division lines. They seem to be of random thickness and and haphazardly drawn.

yep, technically they aren't done. They were done enough for me to focus on other things but yes the thickness issue is one of the reasons it is still on the to do list.

Also, is there a more fitting term for the theme of the map...other than "areas" ? (I.E. consider the Berlin map, and it referencing "zones")

yes! watersheds actually. When I did the original legend I needed to save space so I changed to areas. I am expected to be able to change back but as of right now I am not dealing with the legend.

Work on the numbering system for the map...make it clear and simple. Right now numbered circles are all over and stand out.

yeah, coleman had good input on this. On to do list already.

Also, whenever you've got a better image of the cities (which look odd by the way), move Bradford north of the territory, rather than having it to the right. That frees up some Pixels of space on the right side of the map...so you can move the gameboard off the legend. You might have to remove the compass, but it seems like a filler and not that important.

good idea. thanks for the input!

[TaCktiX]

I see Andy agree with this. I actually prefer the cartoony town look. Goes with the tents and canoes I just brought in. But also, rather than trying too hard to make the map lifelike, I am trying to make it clean out of all the villages and cities I found these were the best in that regards. Plus they have a sort of earthy look. Not saying I can't do better and I'll certainly look into other options. Just not sure I'll be changing those. But if enough people say as you do I most likely will.

To let you know, I see those cities and villages and think "omg, the Smurfs!" I doubt that's what you're aiming for on a map about a gorgeous watershed region. The tents and canoes aren't cartoon-y, either, but they do wash completely out.

Also, I would suggest when you redo the rivers to make the downstream arrows in multiple places, not just the bottom of the river. It's really easy to miss the downstream indication. Also, note what the downstream arrow means. Even if it seems perfectly obvious to you, somebody will miss its meaning and be screwed.

[seamusk]

Also, I would suggest when you redo the rivers to make the downstream arrows in multiple places, not just the bottom of the river. It's really easy to miss the downstream indication. Also, note what the downstream arrow means. Even if it seems perfectly obvious to you, somebody will miss its meaning and be screwed.

aye, I tried the arrows inside the stream and really, really didn't like it. The only feasible way I can envision it that it doesn't look really bad is if I can somehow work on very light blue or white arrows inside a darker stream or vice versa. But doing that kind of arrow mid-stream looks bad in my opinion.

[rocky mountain]

update the legend.
as someone said, the canoes and tents are hard to see. change the colour maybe?
is that Sheffielu, sheffiela, or sheffield? the 6 is in the way
yes, do change the trail. it looks out of place, especially with the white background or whatever
there is a raised place at clarion/S.Br.T. that looks weird. it is not part of the border. why is it there?
the black trees are all different sizes. make them all the same size please...
i think that the cities do need changing, now that the map is heading into more realistic graphics... it would suit the map better.
why do the bridges and canoes have to be at different angles? i say keep them all straight
make the private grounds have texture. they look weird with solid colour.
so any tent terit can attack muzette? if so, plz clarify it.
yes do what Andy said about moving bradford and taking out the compass. it won't do much, but it might look better...
why does tunungwant cr. 2 have a white circle, but no other normal terit does?
the 3 on sheffield is WAY off the circle.
maybe lower the opacity of the army circles on the cities/villages to make them less bold white...
the trees look fine to me, except does there have to be a forest outside of the map?
there are 2 canoes close together in tionesta creek, and its kinda hard to tell which terit canoes are part of. (especially the one in the very south at the yellow region.
some borders are covering things.
i know this is alot, but again, its looking better all the time.
that is all...

[seamusk]

update the legend.

I need to finish what I'm doing first but yeah it has been a while and it is due.

as someone said, the canoes and tents are hard to see. change the colour maybe?

yeah. they blend in too well. Will do.

is that Sheffielu, sheffiela, or sheffield? the 6 is in the way

already fixed. Sometimes when I make changes I miss stuff like that that suddenly go out of whack.

yes, do change the trail. it looks out of place, especially with the white background or whatever

there is a raised place at clarion/S.Br.T. that looks weird. it is not part of the border. why is it there?

because I used an old overlay to create the effect and hadn't updated it to reflect changes I made. Basically I just need to update that layer and all will be good.

the black trees are all different sizes. make them all the same size please...

noticed my laziness did ya.

i think that the cities do need changing, now that the map is heading into more realistic graphics... it would suit the map better.

Looks like I'm quickly getting outnumbered on this one. I still like them but will start lookng at alternatives right away.

why do the bridges and canoes have to be at different angles? i say keep them all straight

Well, the bridges looked funny to me. But i can take a second look. The canoes, I was concerned about them fitting properly in the territories where they belong. I'll see what I can do.

make the private grounds have texture. they look weird with solid colour.

good thinking.

so any tent terit can attack muzette? if so, plz clarify it.

Only one territory can attack muzette. I need to somehow clarify that camping areas can attack the next tent territory or village along the trail in either direction.

why does tunungwant cr. 2 have a white circle, but no other normal terit does?

ah, that was relevant to an earlier design. Don't need that anymore.

the 3 on sheffield is WAY off the circle.

fixed.

maybe lower the opacity of the army circles on the cities/villages to make them less bold white...

good thinking! will do!

the trees look fine to me, except does there have to be a forest outside of the map?

of course. actually, that is kind of the plan right now. to emphasize the trees as forest in the area surrounding the map. We'll have to see if it works. This is a neat way for me to emphasize the local forest composition.

there are 2 canoes close together in tionesta creek, and its kinda hard to tell which terit canoes are part of. (especially the one in the very south at the yellow region.

some borders are covering things.

will fix these. Thanks for the awesome comments!

[seamusk]

I've gotta update the to-do list but for the next two to three days I wanted folks to know that production on this will slow while I prepare for Pittsburgh's next hurling match.

[rocky mountain]

i think you should keep all the versions, not just the latest 3. that way people can look back on them and see the progress. do them in links though, not images. links are smaller and neater.

[seamusk]

I forgot about that option Rocky. Will do.

[seamusk]

Update.

The trees are a work in progress. I went all evergreen just to fill space for now but that is not the plan.
Changed the color of the tents
Updated the legend (couldn't think of another name that would fit)
Change the color of the title
Built an upland bog swamp.
Made the Wilderness Trees One Size
Testing out new cities and villages (went for the lodge look there. OK?)
Made all canoes horizontal
Made all bridges horizontal
Changed some territory borders to help make it more clear what borders what (eg. marienville)
Fixed continents so that they didn't cause weird effect
Added some effects to rivers
Removed borders to rivers in the north
Added some effects to private lands
Changed color to and added stroke to box for bottom left note
Made partial change to trail. still planning more change there too.

Note that I forgot to put the white circles back up. I'm going to be replacing the territory numbers soon anyhow.

Version 2.0 Map - June 4, 2008

Click image to enlarge.

[cptbighead]

dam seamusk .looking great. all you people who wanted and update, there it is. if thats not what your looking for. then you all should leave cc and start something else. maybe a v.r site.

[danfrank]

Ok looking at the update... The cities look better but i am still confused to which territories can attack the city and vice versa... They are marienville , appears to be bordered by 3 terts.. and sheffield bordered by 2 terts.The legend states ,cities attackable by townships named after the cities. marienville and sheffield townships are not on legend. The villages need work, Now they look like Golf Condos that you find in florida communities.. Perhaps a Log Cabin or Farmhouse would be ideal .. I like the trees that surround the map they add to the theme and enclose the map ..

[rocky mountain]

Ok looking at the update... The cities look better but i am still confused to which territories can attack the city and vice versa... They are marienville , appears to be bordered by 3 terts.. and sheffield bordered by 2 terts.The legend states ,cities attackable by townships named after the cities. marienville and sheffield townships are not on legend.

the cities can attack their "township" terit that is unlabelled on the map. it only has one neutral. cities can only attack one terit, and only one terit can attack the cities. it does need to be a bit more clear on the map. *nudges seamusk*

ok here it is...
i like the cities but not the villages...
the trees are good, but will look better when you put different kinds around instead of just pine, which i know you're gonna do anyway...
maybe more of a browny colour instead of blue for the box down below?
the one private land by ludlow is too squarish. its also raised unlike the others...
the trail is better, pretty much everything is better... graphics have greatly improved.
I'm wondering if the bonuses need adjusting... from top to bottom on the legend here are the terit counts and current bonuses, and what i think it should be (in that order)
9: 3 for 4; 2 for 3 (3 cities have their townships in there, and they would be fighting over it.)
14: 4 for 6; its fine, cuz there are plenty of bonuses already in it, so the bonus should stay
11: 3 for 5; fine
5: 2 for 3; fine
5(i think this is spring creek... the colours are off on the legend): 2 for 2; 2 for 3 (from marienville you can get a +4 bonus from 4 terits, with 9 neutrals- the township, 01, 03, 04. this will stop that)
3: 1 for 2; how about 3 for all?
10: 3 for 4; i guess its fine
10:4 for 5; 3 for 4. (there are 4 6's in there)
7: 2 for 3; 1 for 2

great job on this update!

[TaCktiX]

The new towns look pwn, the new villages look like a trailer park or something. The disparity is kinda jarring. I would suggest something not as wide to better facilitate my next suggestion.

The outside-the-map texture is overpowering the map itself. This combined with the present legend presents a problem you need to address fast: the Small map. If you broke the legend into bits and fit them around the map itself, you could cut down on the space required by that massive legend easily, and be able to change the texture to something less dominating as you won't have to "fill" as much.

- Split the Watershed bonuses into two columns, and move them over to rest under the title (which should now be part of their legend)
- Move the City note to the bottom right of the map, and nestle it into the corner
- Drop the Map Features text, it's redundant as 99% of all CC knows you're referring to how the map works if you wrote any text at all
- Split the bonus notes and Map Features to be below the watersheds and above Tidioute, or below Tionesta and above the bottom of the map

Those four changes should nearly bring your map to the Small size, allowing you to create a Small map without indecipherably-small text and territories. There are a lot of people, myself included, who develop the Small first to make sure that the map is "possible" in the readability sense.

dam seamusk .looking great. all you people who wanted and update, there it is. if thats not what your looking for. then you all should leave cc and start something else. maybe a v.r site.

This comment was entirely unnecessary. There is always something that can be changed about a map to make it better, even after Quenching. It's just by that point, the "better" is so minute as to not make a noticeable difference.

[seamusk]

The new towns look pwn, the new villages look like a trailer park or something. The disparity is kinda jarring. I would suggest something not as wide to better facilitate my next suggestion.

What does pwn mean? Yeah, I need to change the villages.

The outside-the-map texture is overpowering the map itself. This combined with the present legend presents a problem you need to address fast: the Small map. If you broke the legend into bits and fit them around the map itself, you could cut down on the space required by that massive legend easily, and be able to change the texture to something less dominating as you won't have to "fill" as much.

- Split the Watershed bonuses into two columns, and move them over to rest under the title (which should now be part of their legend)
- Move the City note to the bottom right of the map, and nestle it into the corner
- Drop the Map Features text, it's redundant as 99% of all CC knows you're referring to how the map works if you wrote any text at all
- Split the bonus notes and Map Features to be below the watersheds and above Tidioute, or below Tionesta and above the bottom of the map

This raises the classic conundrum of conflicting advice. This map started with directions in different places but folks suggested consolidating into a clear legend. I think moving the note to the bottom right is a reasonable idea. I could change the legend box around. But I'm not crazy about the idea of moving the legend items all over again. Not just because of conflicting advice. I think it looks better this way.

I can delete the map features text. That makes sense.

Those four changes should nearly bring your map to the Small size, allowing you to create a Small map without indecipherably-small text and territories. There are a lot of people, myself included, who develop the Small first to make sure that the map is "possible" in the readability sense.

I had a small version posted at some point. If anything the map is clearer than it was then so I don't anticipate any issues. I already made territory adjustments to make the small map work. I will at some point soon post the small again for additional feedback of course.

On a side note, developing the small map first is exactly what I'm doing with the hurling map.

dam seamusk .looking great. all you people who wanted and update, there it is. if thats not what your looking for. then you all should leave cc and start something else. maybe a v.r site.

This comment was entirely unnecessary. There is always something that can be changed about a map to make it better, even after Quenching. It's just by that point, the "better" is so minute as to not make a noticeable difference.

Well, I don't think that is the cpt's point. Not every minute change needs to happen in the map ideas forum. There is a process for a reason.