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Food Chain

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Re: Food Chain

Postby porkenbeans on Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:39 pm

ManBungalow wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:
porkenbeans wrote:
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Did you draw that...purely original graphics ?! :shock:
I have not yet taken the brush to anything. Everything you see is cut and paste from photographs. The objective is to create a cool map, NOT create a complete original piece of art. 8-)

You may have a copyright issue at some point :-^
Most are free to use, One or two however, I may need to seek permission. There are countless "free to use" images on the web. so this will be a "non-problem".
I am NOT trying to hide the fact that this map is cut and paste. In fact, it is the whole point. The internet world has combined with photoshop. It has spawned a new art form, and you see it everywhere. Some of it is good, and some, not so much. A good 75% of CC maps have been aided by google earth or Virtual world. The only difference between them and myself is, I am not trying to hide it. 8-) The San Fransisco map comes to mind. The internal texture is faded in a clear attempt to hide the fact that it IS a satellite photo. Even the maps that do not use the internal texture began on google earth, or someone elses map. :roll:
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Re: Food Chain

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:30 pm

OKay, call me picky, but former fish biologist who used to study ocean fish for a living.

First, your last comment... that the open ocean is very differant from a reef, etc is quite true. John seems to be mostly centering on a generalized mid-trophic/continental shelf region. Not "open ocean" (where light never sees the bottom) and not reef (where you have structure and light generally penetrates all the way).

For that region, I have to make a couple of corrections/clarifications

porkenbeans wrote:John, I am following what you are saying, I think.
Your TLs' are a tad inaccurate though. Here is the basic rundown of the food chain from the bottom up.

What you call "the composition layer" is in fact all the microscopic creatures that feed off of one another and floating bits of organic matter. Included are Plankton and krill mostly..



Clarification. This is really 3 differant groups. You actually have a mini ecosystem or "food chain" at the microscopic and just above microscopic (we can see them, but they are small) level

Phytoplankton are the bottom, they absorb sunlight. Also at the base is detritus (the general term for all decomposing/accumulated "matter". Zooplankton generally eat phytoplankton and detritus.. Larger zoo plankton eat smaller zooplankton, phytoplankton and detritus. Fish larvae generally eat either phytoplankton or zooplankton or detritus.

"composition zone" is actually a term used, though it is one of those things that is not universally recognized (note-- few things to do with fish are. If you want the US official terms, consult American Fisheries society or NationaL Marine Fisheries Service). Essentially what it refers to is that this is the "building" layer, that these animals convert sunlight to useable fuel.

porkenbeans wrote:Next you have the filter feeders that feed mainly off of these creatures. They include many animals small and large. Most are small, and consist of mostly invertebrates, coral, and anemones,

These also include baleen whales and many fish.

A term I learned, though it may be out of date (I will check if you wish to be that technical), is secondary predators or simply the next layer of the food web.


porkenbeans wrote:
Then comes the scavengers. Most are filter feeders, but are mobile, and can attack small prey on occasion. Included are crustaceans, such as crabs and lobsters, also starfish and slugs. this group are the "janitors of the sea" as they clean up the place.

Scavengers may be filter feeders, but the two are separate terms. Filter feeders eat largely living matter from the water column. Scavengers specifically eat the dead/dying stuff. These include many fish, too.

This is really a side chain to the above, not a next layer. That is, there is one group that ultimately arises from things the sun and another that more or less arises from dead stuff. (and a third.. the chemical energy absorbers, but they can be left out here)

These include many fish, too.
porkenbeans wrote:Next we have the predators, that attack and eat the janitors. Included are a myriad of creatures that feed off of each other and the scavengers as well. Included are just about everything that swims, but mainly fish such as the Grouper, and all fish with relatively large mouths.


Predators eat from all levels of the column. The distinction is not so much what they eat, but how they obtain it. If they eat living prey, they are predators. If they wait for it to die, they are scavengers. If they sift it out of the water column, they are filter feeders. The terms overlap and include many invertebrates and vertebrates.

porkenbeans wrote:
The top predators keep the previous group in check, and assure that a balance is maintained.


This is essentially true, but again.. "predators" really covers many levels in the food chain.

porkenbeans wrote:This ecosystem is a very complicated process, and a lot of animals are not so easy to categorize. Take the rays and whale shark, (which are in fact part of the shark family). They only eat plankton and krill. They are filter feeders. But lobsters do not attack and eat them, even though they are in the group above them on the food chain.

This is why it is a "food web" in any modern textbooks and not a "food chain".

porkenbeans wrote:For this reason I do not think that you need to worry so much about who actually eats whom. It is sufficient enough to just have the main categories represented.

1.) plankton.
2.) Filter-Feeders.
3.) Scavengers
4.) Predators.
5.) Top predators.


Also I do not think that you need to have an equal amount of creatures from each category. This scenario results in "The Build Game". It is better to have to fight for the Chain. Not having enough to go around, assures this.

To a point, I agree. I don't think you need to be too picky about what goes where. I completely disagree with the categories you have here, but again, accuracy is not necessarily critical, though, if you wish to be accurate, it is not difficult.

As for the numbers, it is actually good to have more at the lower levels.

One thing to consider is that the ocean is really a series of trophic levels. EACH level has its own set of base species, next level predators, etc.


porkenbeans wrote:If you want to make this map about the open sea, you are entering a whole different world of deep sea creatures. most live there lives in waters that light does not reach. This is almost an entirely different ecosystem.

For this reason I would like to suggest that we consider a map pack. There are creatures unique to certain regions of the world, so we could have numerous maps that represent these unique places. All we have to do is work out the basic categories, or TLs'. And the rest is just producing the images.

The differant ecosystem is prefectly true, but for that reason you might not want to just use the same format. It can get repetetive to play exactly the same maps with only minor variations over and over. I know nothing about map creation, but it seems like using some of your ideas above would be fun... bombardments, remote attacks, etc. You could even have one that involved pollution.

If you need any technical help on fish/ocean specifics or even just good places to get that information (having "vetted" several), let me know.
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Re: Food Chain

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:34 pm

Which map is now being used? I am confused.
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Re: Food Chain

Postby porkenbeans on Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:13 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Which map is now being used? I am confused.
Are you interested in joining The Map Factory ? :arrow: viewtopic.php?f=273&t=80865&p=1915851#p1915851
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Re: Food Chain

Postby john9blue on Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:47 pm

Thanks for the comments Player. I was thinking about PMing you but figured you might not need to be bothered as we almost had things worked out. So, if you were to organize species into trophic levels for the mid-depth region of the ocean, starting with the species that eat decomposed animal matter, how would you do it? Or is it not that simple? :?
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Re: Food Chain

Postby MrBenn on Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:25 pm

[Moved]

This map has been moved into the Ideas subforum, as it does not meet the criteria for a Working Draft. In fact, this thread has me generally confused :?

Drafting Room Guidelines

To be considered a Working Draft a project must be more than just an idea; a Draft should have a clear thematic focus, a plan for how the gameplay will work, and a basic image which should include:
    1. Territory Labels - temporary names or numbers will suffice, and are always open to change.
    2. Borders/Paths/Impassables - it should be made clear where territories do/do not connect.
    3. Bonus Areas - where combinations/groups of territories will award a bonus, this should be indicated on the map.
    4. Legend - speculative bonus values and explanations of any attack rules or gameplay features.
Draft images should not be larger than 630x600px (small image) or 840x800px (large image).
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Re: Food Chain

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:02 pm

MrBenn wrote:[Moved]

This map has been moved into the Ideas subforum, as it does not meet the criteria for a Working Draft. In fact, this thread has me generally confused :?

Drafting Room Guidelines

To be considered a Working Draft a project must be more than just an idea; a Draft should have a clear thematic focus, a plan for how the gameplay will work, and a basic image which should include:
    1. Territory Labels - temporary names or numbers will suffice, and are always open to change.
    2. Borders/Paths/Impassables - it should be made clear where territories do/do not connect.
    3. Bonus Areas - where combinations/groups of territories will award a bonus, this should be indicated on the map.
    4. Legend - speculative bonus values and explanations of any attack rules or gameplay features.
Draft images should not be larger than 630x600px (small image) or 840x800px (large image).
What are you confused about Benn ?
This thread was started by john. He threw up a crude draft, and asked "If anyone thought it was a good idea". A few of us here thought, that it was a good enough idea, to devote 6 pages to it.
If it is important to you "where" this thread should be located. Then move it, if you see fit.

Your confusion, is confusing me. :lol:
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Re: Food Chain

Postby john9blue on Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:04 pm

Player and I are hammering out the food web now, trying to decide which species should be included. We're almost done. :)
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Re: Food Chain

Postby sailorseal on Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:05 pm

john9blue wrote:
sailorseal wrote:I am honestly offended by this image he was a great man


Hey, I was just messing around... Steve Irwin was awesome. ;)

On a less offensive note, Nate, I thought about putting humans in there. Being able to bombard any fish... it would be nice, but probably make the game over-centralized. :?

I like this idea
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Re: Food Chain

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:53 am

Hi john,
i PMed you some info, but if you will update your first image with the actual species and decisions about "attack routes" i can give you a final answer about this:

john9blue wrote:Maybe about 42 species or so (not counting decomposition, of course), and the food chains will have different bonuses based on how many species are involved. You can get multiple bonuses, but they can't share more than one species. I'm hoping this is possible with the current XML, because Conquer 4 has a very similar gameplay mechanic (can I get confirmation on this? yeti? cairns? Bueller?). Decomposition resets to 1 neutral each turn.


Have a nice day

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Re: Food Chain

Postby Neoteny on Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:15 am

I kinda like the progression of this, I think, john. I was thinking "trophic levels, ffs" from the beginning, and I'm glad that's the conclusion you came to. As far as gameplay or looks go, you're on your own, but if you and PLAYER run out of ideas while trying to keep it as true to life as possible, let me know and I'll try to help too.
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Re: Food Chain

Postby john9blue on Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:56 pm

Thanks for the support guys. I PM'ed pork like a week ago and still haven't heard anything. I'll send him one more, and if I don't get a response then I'll start it myself. Sorry this draft is taking forever. #-o
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Re: Food Chain

Postby santon836 on Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:34 am

Wow, this is fishy :P :)

I really like it but I also think you should reverse it, making the attacks top-down. Seems more logical to me. Also because the bigger fish tend to swim more upwards and the plankton on the bottom. Your second draft appeals less to me than your third, as the lines are not always clear. Without lines is way better.

Also I like the idea of the doodlyness or the red bubbles (overall: the idea with the levels/TLs) better than the (extremely good-looking) cut-and-paste picture of the ocean with fish in it. I think the latter is not clear enough and doesn't work out the food chain idea. Just keep working on it, though, and use it as a wallpaper or something. Not a map.
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Re: Food Chain

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:14 pm

santon836 wrote:Wow, this is fishy :P :)

I really like it but I also think you should reverse it, making the attacks top-down. Seems more logical to me. Also because the bigger fish tend to swim more upwards and the plankton on the bottom. Your second draft appeals less to me than your third, as the lines are not always clear. Without lines is way better.


Just a quick comment... bigger fish don't "tend to swim more upwards" they are found throughout except that at the very deep levels (below 500M), things do get smaller and thinner as a rule. Plankton are at the top or mid top in most of the ocean. (picky, I know...)
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Re: Food Chain

Postby john9blue on Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:55 am

Okay, pork doesn't seem to have the time or want to do this anymore, so I'm cooking up another draft. Here's the start:

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/2122/foodchain2copy.png

Still have to name the territs and write instructions. Thoughts so far? :-s



EDIT: Finished.

Click image to enlarge.
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8-)
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Re: Food Chain

Postby john9blue on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Bump.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Any thoughts on this draft? :-s
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Re: Food Chain

Postby mattattam on Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:34 am

First, I just wanted to say that I really like this idea and where you have gone with it!

One of the things that came up in my mind is the colour are just too bland. I liked how your other drafts had more vibrant blues. I like the Key on the right and the colours for the decomposition, but I think the water around the sea animals needs to brighten up and perhaps the animals themselves.

Also, I am a little confused about what levels some animals belong to. It seems like there could be 6 or 7 levels of animals how you have it layered. Some animals don't seem to fit even though I'm sure you've done a lot of research on them. An example of this is the Orca. Is it on level 2 or 3? The fish in the middle is the most confusing part. It seems like you need to make more levels or have less animals to make it easier to understand.

Lastly, I really like the plankton, and the overall setup of this map is great. I like the idea of having to holding a food chain in order to win (besides the alternative to eliminating the competition outright), but it seems like a really tall task with how many territories there are currently. I don't really see it playing a realistic factor in the game at the maps current state. Simplify it more pehaps...

Great job so far. Keep going!
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Re: Food Chain

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:51 am

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;-)
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