First Adjacent Attacks Tournament [Winner: xelabale]

[n00blet]

Hmm... I'm not sure I understand this "killer neutrals" term, even after reading the PM stating the rules clearly. Is "killer neutral" the same thing as bombardment?

Question: (and maybe this could be found in the attached thread, but I'm lazy and this is probably something everyone needs to hear anyway) How do bombardments work? Can a territory bombard more than once?
If not - I'll need to change maps - I think there's a good chance the game would be unfinishable in that case.

Well...yes, but that map might not work. Since you cannot bombard from a territory you just captured then the nukes would be useless and then you could get stuck in an endless game.

This is a very interesting point... perhaps "Killer Neutrals" should behave differently in Adjacent Attacks?

i.e. Any Killer Neutral territory is allowed to be attacked from in the same turn that it was conquered...

Will post this in the thread.

C.

No. "Killer Neutrals" are regions that lose all armies at the beginning of the next turn.
For example, the "Missile Launch" region in Arms Race is a Killer Neutral.

[sully800]

Can you clarify what happens when someone breaks the rule? I know they get zero points for that round, but what is the incentive to play by the rule after breaking it once? Seems like someone could continue to break the rule and cause a lot of problems, though I hope we don't have anyone like that.

Also, if player C breaks the rule and player D gets eliminated first do they both get 0 points? Or is player C given last place, and therefore player D automatically gets a point (unless he also breaks the rule)?

[lancehoch]

Can you clarify what happens when someone breaks the rule? I know they get zero points for that round, but what is the incentive to play by the rule after breaking it once? Seems like someone could continue to break the rule and cause a lot of problems, though I hope we don't have anyone like that.

Also, if player C breaks the rule and player D gets eliminated first do they both get 0 points? Or is player C given last place, and therefore player D automatically gets a point (unless he also breaks the rule)?

I think we decided it was the latter. If multiple people break the rule then they all get 0 points. I will double check with n00blet.

[n00blet]

Can you clarify what happens when someone breaks the rule? I know they get zero points for that round, but what is the incentive to play by the rule after breaking it once? Seems like someone could continue to break the rule and cause a lot of problems, though I hope we don't have anyone like that.

Also, if player C breaks the rule and player D gets eliminated first do they both get 0 points? Or is player C given last place, and therefore player D automatically gets a point (unless he also breaks the rule)?

I think we decided it was the latter. If multiple people break the rule then they all get 0 points. I will double check with n00blet.

Lance is correct. If someone breaks the rule, they automatically get last place. Ill clarify that on the description post

Also, if someone breaks the rules repeatedly they will be warned, and if they continue, disqualified

[HighlanderAttack]

Can you clarify what happens when someone breaks the rule? I know they get zero points for that round, but what is the incentive to play by the rule after breaking it once? Seems like someone could continue to break the rule and cause a lot of problems, though I hope we don't have anyone like that.

Also, if player C breaks the rule and player D gets eliminated first do they both get 0 points? Or is player C given last place, and therefore player D automatically gets a point (unless he also breaks the rule)?

I think we decided it was the latter. If multiple people break the rule then they all get 0 points. I will double check with n00blet.

Lance is correct. If someone breaks the rule, they automatically get last place. Ill clarify that on the description post

Also, if someone breaks the rules repeatedly they will be warned, and if they continue, disqualified

The big problem I face now is that in two games someone has broken the rule and really hurt me from having any chance to win. In the one game he took away an entire bonus land. So no matter what is done to the person who broke the rule, my chances of winning in the tournament are all but gone and my chances of winning the game are gone. Mistakes will happen and even I made one in the Arms race game--I immediately called myself out but mine was minor and had no bearing on the outcome compared to what was done to me.

I will finish playing those games by the rules, but I have not real want to play anymore.

[sully800]

It was clear to me that your attack in Arm's Race was a mistake, Highlander. It did not effect the outcome of the game at all, which I think was also true of my wrong attack in USA. However, the bigger problem is acores who has repeatedly broken the rules. It has now happened in at least 3 of the games and twice they were big attacks against Highlander which is unfair because it has definitely changed the outcome (especially if the rule continues to be broken). Acores has not responded to us in any of the games and has made no apologies. I'm not sure if he/she doesn't understand the rule, forgets, or just doesn't care, but I think Highlander should be given another chance if possible.

[n00blet]

The big problem I face now is that in two games someone has broken the rule and really hurt me from having any chance to win. In the one game he took away an entire bonus land. So no matter what is done to the person who broke the rule, my chances of winning in the tournament are all but gone and my chances of winning the game are gone. Mistakes will happen and even I made one in the Arms race game--I immediately called myself out but mine was minor and had no bearing on the outcome compared to what was done to me.

I will finish playing those games by the rules, but I have not real want to play anymore.

I had hoped people would play honorably, but I suppose that inevitably someone would take advantage of the situation....
What fair way is there to deal with it? As you pointed out, you are in an unwinnable position because you followed the rules. But if rule breakers were to be disqualified, how would we root out the ones who were malicious in their attacks?

It was clear to me that your attack in Arm's Race was a mistake, Highlander. It did not effect the outcome of the game at all, which I think was also true of my wrong attack in USA. However, the bigger problem is acores who has repeatedly broken the rules. It has now happened in at least 3 of the games and twice they were big attacks against Highlander which is unfair because it has definitely changed the outcome (especially if the rule continues to be broken). Acores has not responded to us in any of the games and has made no apologies. I'm not sure if he/she doesn't understand the rule, forgets, or just doesn't care, but I think Highlander should be given another chance if possible.

There are 4 games in the first round, so if acores has shown no indication of a wish to follow the rules, he can be replaced in time for the next 2 games, or they could be played as 3 player games. We'll need to see what he has to say for himself, and what any others who've broken the rules have to say.

[acores2005]

The big problem I face now is that in two games someone has broken the rule and really hurt me from having any chance to win. In the one game he took away an entire bonus land. So no matter what is done to the person who broke the rule, my chances of winning in the tournament are all but gone and my chances of winning the game are gone. Mistakes will happen and even I made one in the Arms race game--I immediately called myself out but mine was minor and had no bearing on the outcome compared to what was done to me.

I will finish playing those games by the rules, but I have not real want to play anymore.

I had hoped people would play honorably, but I suppose that inevitably someone would take advantage of the situation....
What fair way is there to deal with it? As you pointed out, you are in an unwinnable position because you followed the rules. But if rule breakers were to be disqualified, how would we root out the ones who were malicious in their attacks?

It was clear to me that your attack in Arm's Race was a mistake, Highlander. It did not effect the outcome of the game at all, which I think was also true of my wrong attack in USA. However, the bigger problem is acores who has repeatedly broken the rules. It has now happened in at least 3 of the games and twice they were big attacks against Highlander which is unfair because it has definitely changed the outcome (especially if the rule continues to be broken). Acores has not responded to us in any of the games and has made no apologies. I'm not sure if he/she doesn't understand the rule, forgets, or just doesn't care, but I think Highlander should be given another chance if possible.

There are 4 games in the first round, so if acores has shown no indication of a wish to follow the rules, he can be replaced in time for the next 2 games, or they could be played as 3 player games. We'll need to see what he has to say for himself, and what any others who've broken the rules have to say.

My name (acores) is mentioned in the text as frequently breaking the rules of the tournament. Reading the Game Log I have broke the rules in ONE (1) game (Australia) in round 8 and could have ruined the opportunity of HighlanderAttack to win the game.
I admit my mistake to N00blet by PM and that was due to the distraction and the habit of playing without these rules (I think they are quite innovative) but the player HighlanderAttack just do what I did in the same game in round 10.
Due to my error in Round 8, I think the truth was restored in this game and so I and HighlanderAttack and we are charged with advantage to HighlanderAttack. I'm almost out of the game!
On the others 3 games, Im trying dont stay in 4 place but I dont break the rules. If you are so shure of that, I only say: PROVE!
This is to you sully800!

[acores2005]

Group 2 - Round 1

Game 3882983

acores2005 - 0 points

[acores2005]

Group 2 - Round 1

game 3882961

lancehoch - 4 points
acores2005 - 2 points
HighlanderAttack - 1 point
sully800 - 0 point

[acores2005]

Group 2 - Round 1

Game 3882965

sully800 - 4 points
HighlanderAttack - 2 points
acores2005 - 1 point
lancehoch - 0 point

[acores2005]

Group 2 - Round 1

After 2 games (3882965 and 3882961) the standings are

sully800 - 4 points
HighlanderAttack - 3 points
acores2005 - 3 points
lancehoch - 4 points

[sully800]

My name (acores) is mentioned in the text as frequently breaking the rules of the tournament. Reading the Game Log I have broke the rules in ONE (1) game (Australia) in round 8 and could have ruined the opportunity of HighlanderAttack to win the game.
I admit my mistake to N00blet by PM and that was due to the distraction and the habit of playing without these rules (I think they are quite innovative) but the player HighlanderAttack just do what I did in the same game in round 10.
Due to my error in Round 8, I think the truth was restored in this game and so I and HighlanderAttack and we are charged with advantage to HighlanderAttack. I'm almost out of the game!
On the others 3 games, Im trying dont stay in 4 place but I dont break the rules. If you are so shure of that, I only say: PROVE!
This is to you sully800!

Sorry acores, it seems I was wrong in my earlier statements. We hadn't gotten a response from you in game chat when I posted that, so I was worried that you had either forgotten the rules or did not understand them. Now its clear that is not the case, and you have been helpful in the chat and in updating this tournament thread.

So my apologies, I did not mean to wrongfully accuse you of breaking the rules intentionally! All the best mate.

[sully800]

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=3882983
Game 3882983

acores - 0
lance - 1
sully - 2
Highlander - 4



http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=3882968
Game 3882968

acores - 0
Highlander - 1
lance - 2
Sully - 4

[sully800]

So after all 4 games, the scores are:
sully800 - 10 points
HighlanderAttack - 8 points
acores2005 - 3 points
lancehoch - 7 points

By my calculation. Please check and make any adjustments necessary for breaking the rule (these scores are strictly based on the placement in the game because I think we self adjusted in each game so that no breakages affected the outcome)

[sully800]

All accidental breakages (as per the original rule of the tournament) that I discovered:

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=3882961
Round 8
2008-12-25 19:50:43 - acores2005 assaulted Albacete from Ciudad Real and conquered it from HighlanderAttack
2008-12-25 19:50:55 - acores2005 assaulted Murcia from Albacete and conquered it from HighlanderAttack

So then:
Acores - 0
Sully - 1
Highlander - 2
Lance - 4

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=3882965
Round 6
2008-12-24 09:18:05 - acores2005 assaulted Leningrad from Moscow and conquered it from neutral player
2008-12-24 09:18:16 - acores2005 assaulted Mendeleyev from Leningrad and conquered it from neutral player
2008-12-24 09:18:21 - acores2005 assaulted USSR Spy 1 from Leningrad and conquered it from neutral player

Round 7
2008-12-24 14:55:57 - HighlanderAttack assaulted USSR Uranium 2 from Noril'sk and conquered it from neutral player
2008-12-24 14:56:01 - HighlanderAttack assaulted USSR Bunker 1 from USSR Uranium 2 and conquered it from acores2005

So:
acores - 0
Highlander - 0
lance - 2
sully - 4



http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=3882968
Round 5
2008-12-23 14:34:48 - sully800 assaulted Utah from Nevada and conquered it from lancehoch
2008-12-23 14:35:12 - sully800 assaulted Idaho from Utah and conquered it from lancehoch

so:
Sully - 0
acores - 1
Highlander - 2
lance - 4


http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=3882983
Round 8
2008-12-25 08:19:29 - acores2005 assaulted Canberra from Sydney and conquered it from HighlanderAttack
2008-12-25 08:19:35 - acores2005 assaulted Gippsland from Canberra and conquered it from HighlanderAttack
2008-12-25 08:19:40 - acores2005 assaulted Hobart from Gippsland and conquered it from HighlanderAttack
2008-12-25 08:19:44 - acores2005 assaulted Melbourne from Hobart and conquered it from HighlanderAttack
2008-12-25 08:19:47 - acores2005 assaulted Eureka from Melbourne and conquered it from HighlanderAttack
2008-12-25 08:19:51 - acores2005 assaulted Mt. Gambier from Eureka and conquered it from HighlanderAttack

And highlander broke the rule only to make amends and regain his territory.
So:
acores - 0
lance - 1
sully - 2
Highlander - 4

Kind of sad that we had accidents in every one of our games. Only lance played perfectly as far as I can see.

So the adjusted totals are:

acores - 1
Highlander - 8
Sully - 7
lance - 11

I leave it up to you guys to determine who advances, but by the original rules it looks like its lance and Highlander.

[HighlanderAttack]

I say just let Sully go through to the finals.

Unless Sully, Acores and myself want to play all three boards again by the rules and the winner advances.

That sounds fun.

Lance is in either way.

[n00blet]

I say just let Sully go through to the finals.

Unless Sully, Acores and myself want to play all three boards again by the rules and the winner advances.

That sounds fun.

Lance is in either way.

With so much confusion, I'd think that if all of you were willing to play 4 three player games, it would be the simplest solution...

[lancehoch]

I am game.

[acores2005]

Round 1 - Tiebreaker

game 3947674

1st place - sully800
2nd place - acores2005
3rd place - HighlanderAttack

game 3947671

1st place - HighlanderAttack
2nd place - acores2005
3rd place - sully800

game 3947673 is ongoing

At game 3947673 I have broke the rules so the 3rd place is for me!

[xelabale]

Can I make a suggestion to clarify things. I broke the rules in a game accidentally, as most people have done. I suggest if this happens people be allowed to redress the balance by attacking back. The players can agree together during the game in chat to suggest a fair solution. If it's done deliberately that player should obviously be removed and the game replayed, as it can have a huge impact on the outcome and affect people who abided by the rules. In one of my games a player took away my whole bonus area illegally, and because I had to abide by the rules, I could never get it back - radically changed the game, unfairly, what can I do...

Right now there's a lot of arbitrary solutions and different groups appear to be playing by different rules. We need consistency, whatever the rules decided are!

Cheers,

Xela

[HighlanderAttack]

Can I make a suggestion to clarify things. I broke the rules in a game accidentally, as most people have done. I suggest if this happens people be allowed to redress the balance by attacking back. The players can agree together during the game in chat to suggest a fair solution. If it's done deliberately that player should obviously be removed and the game replayed, as it can have a huge impact on the outcome and affect people who abided by the rules. In one of my games a player took away my whole bonus area illegally, and because I had to abide by the rules, I could never get it back - radically changed the game, unfairly, what can I do...

Right now there's a lot of arbitrary solutions and different groups appear to be playing by different rules. We need consistency, whatever the rules decided are!

Cheers,

Xela

That solution won't always work. Bonus armies can be lost, a bad roll when trying to even it back up. There is no one solution in my opinion.

[xelabale]

More a call for consistency and clarification than an attempt at a solution - let's list the alternatives and see what we can do:

1 Allow re-attacks pre-agreed by everyone in the game for an admitted accident - a limit ie. 1 (genuine) mistake in a game
2 zero tolerance - after the first round we should all know better - if you want to win, don't mess up
3 arbitration by mods
4 ?

There must be more elegant solutions but I don't know what they are. Seems to me that we do need a solution though... i lean to sol. 1 sure you may be unlucky with dice, but you can always be, whatever you're doing. The group could agree on a different solution, like no attacks for 2 rounds (thus not getting cards) for example. As long as everyone agrees in the game... The problem I see is, what is an "accident"?

[n00blet]

More a call for consistency and clarification than an attempt at a solution - let's list the alternatives and see what we can do:

1 Allow re-attacks pre-agreed by everyone in the game for an admitted accident - a limit ie. 1 (genuine) mistake in a game
2 zero tolerance - after the first round we should all know better - if you want to win, don't mess up
3 arbitration by mods
4 ?

There must be more elegant solutions but I don't know what they are. Seems to me that we do need a solution though... i lean to sol. 1 sure you may be unlucky with dice, but you can always be, whatever you're doing. The group could agree on a different solution, like no attacks for 2 rounds (thus not getting cards) for example. As long as everyone agrees in the game... The problem I see is, what is an "accident"?

Believe it or not, lance and I have been quite consistent in our rulings. Just because we don't divulge exactly how fast one will reach the point of getting 0 for the game does not mean there is not a limit. If we specifically said "break the rules X times and you get a zero" then a ruthless player would say "OK, i'll just break the rules X-1 times at key moments in the game."
Rest assured, you are all being judged impartially.

[n00blet]

Standings updated.