Most deadly wars ever

[bigtoughralf]

The top five most deadly wars ever and their causes:

• World War 2, 77million deaths (German and Japanese expansionism)
• Taiping Rebellion, 28million deaths (Christian theocracy)
• Establishment of Qing Dynasty, 25million deaths (Manchu expansionism)
• The Great War, 18million (bickering between Central Europeans)
• An Lushan Rebellion, 13million (bickering between Chinese)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... death_toll

[Doc_Brown]

The Taiping Rebellion was no more about the establishment of a "Christian" theocracy than were Suleiman's campaigns. Hong Xiuquan, the leader of that rebellion fused the little bit that he knew of Christianity with Daoism and Confucianism, and claimed the title of brother of Jesus Christ. Essentially, he created his own religion, which was, at best, an offshoot of Christianity. The missionary that tried to teach Hong, refused to baptize him after seeing what Hong was doing.

[bigtoughralf]

Nice try, but no. Hong Xiuquan, leader of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, was a Protestant convert who studied under multiple Christian missionaries before attempting to overthrow the Qing Dynasty and replace it with a new regime under the Christian god.

The poll stands.

[Doc_Brown]

Just so we're clear, that is the equivalent of calling someone that claimed to be the reincarnation of Mohamed a Muslim.

[Doc_Brown]

Nice try, but no. Hong Xiuquan, leader of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, was a Protestant convert who studied under multiple Christian missionaries before attempting to overthrow the Qing Dynasty and replace it with a new regime under the Christian god.

The poll stands.

Nice edit. He called himself a protestant Christian and brother of Jesus Christ. Yes, he studied under Christian missionaries before formulating his own religion. The missionaries refused to baptize him as a Christian.

[bigtoughralf]

Just so we're clear, that is the equivalent of calling someone that claimed to be the reincarnation of Mohamed a Muslim.

No. It would be like calling someone who studied the Quran under multiple imams, converted to Islam, and believed they were the brother of Mohammed, a Muslim.

Unfortunately for your not-so-hidden agenda, though, no such people have ever started a war that killed 28 million people.

[jusplay4fun]

It seems to me that:

1) the leader of this revolution, Hong Xiuquan, used some aspects of Christian religion to create a new religion and a basis for his war;

2) the religion is not really Christian;

3) typical ralf, he bends the facts to advance an incorrect interpretation of events and to paint a false narrative.

The God Worshipping Society (simplified Chinese: 拜上帝会; traditional Chinese: 拜上帝會; pinyin: Bài Shàngdì Huì; its proper translation is Emperor Worshipping Society, Shangdi means Emperor) was a religious movement founded and led by Hong Xiuquan which drew on his own unique interpretation of Christianity and combined it with Chinese folk religion, faith in Shangdi, and other religious traditions.[1]

Gao, James Z. (2009). Historical Dictionary of Modern China (1800-1949). Scarecrow Press. p. 136. ISBN 978-0810863088.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Worshipping_Society

This thread deserves no more of my time to argue with ralf as he continues to offer obfuscation. ralf does not offer facts and offers nothing worthy of debate.

[HitRed]

The Great Leap Forward- China

Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million, making the Great Chinese Famine the largest famine in human history

[HitRed]

Cultural Revolution - China

Estimates of the death toll from the Cultural Revolution, including civilians and Red Guards, vary greatly, ranging from hundreds of thousands to 20 million.

[Doc_Brown]

Just so we're clear, that is the equivalent of calling someone that claimed to be the reincarnation of Mohamed a Muslim.

No. It would be like calling someone who studied the Quran under multiple imams, converted to Islam, and believed they were the brother of Mohammed, a Muslim.

Unfortunately for your not-so-hidden agenda, though, no such people have ever started a war that killed 28 million people.

I'd be willing to accept your version if you were to add that "he claimed to convert to Islam but the various imams that had taught him rejected him as a heretic and refused to acknowledge him as a Muslim." Historically, baptism is the rite of initiation into Christianity. For a teacher to refuse to baptize an individual is to explicitly say that said individual is in no way a Christian.

Now, you really know nothing of my agenda. There are plenty of brutally violent episodes in the history of Christianity. A few that come to mind are the crusades, the religious wars in Europe, the inquisition, and even the much more recent conflict in the Balkans. Arguably, ideology and politics are inextricably tied to religion and worldview, in which case, all wars have religious overtones at a minimum. Hitler tried to wrap holocaust atrocities in a form of quasi-Christian nationalism. Both sides in the American Civil War appealed to different aspects of Christianity in support of their causes.

My agenda is not to whitewash Christianity or to suggest that some other religion is more violent. I am simply pointing out that you've chosen a very poor example of a Christian war in selecting the Taipang Rebellion.

[jonesthecurl]

Not taking either side here, and no expert on the era - but doesn't every Christian sect start as heresy?

I mean you could say that Martin Luther was really a Christian because the Pope said so, and the Pope was the ultimate authority.

Henry Tudor was excommunicated and his church is still going stron today.

Also, do you have to be baptised to become a christian? I'm not sure all sects would agree with you there. Isn't accepting Christ into your heart supposed to be sufficient for many of them?

[bigtoughralf]

Exactly. The Church of England was basically founded by the King of England because he wanted a version of Christianity that would allow him to get divorced, and yet his Christianity is now accepted and practiced all over the world. Hong Xiuquan's only crime was failing to win.

[jonesthecurl]

The other great impulse behind the founding of the CoE, or English Protestantism, was again money and power. The monasteries, etc. owned so much land that Henry wanted.

[Dukasaur]

Exactly. The Church of England was basically founded by the King of England because he wanted a version of Christianity that would allow him to get divorced, and yet his Christianity is now accepted and practiced all over the world. Hong Xiuquan's only crime was failing to win.

That's not really a good comparison.

When Henry VIII separated the Church of England from the Catholic Church, it was purely a political event. He did not challenge any Church teachings. The Church of England at the time was indistinguishable in its rites and beliefs from the Catholic Church, only in its centre of political authority. In later times the Church of England was reformed and eventually became more of a Protestant church, but that was a later event not driven by the same forces.

Hong Xiuquan's church, if you can call it that, was clearly distinguishable from any established Christian church. His teachings were only tangentially related to mainstream Christianity.

A more apt comparison would be with Gobin's invention of Sikhism, which he cobbled together from different strands of Hinduism and Islam, trying to gain converts from both sides.

Still, your core point is valid. It was an attempt to create a theocratic state. It's only the term Christian that is at issue.

So four of the six deadliest wars were Chinese. I think that answers the question in the OP.

[bigtoughralf]

I separated Manchu and Chinese for a reason. Manchu is to Chinese what German is to European. If you're going to call the Manchu campaign a Chinese campaign then you might as well call Kublai Khan Chinese.

By headcount WW2 killed more than all of the Chinese wars combined, and once you factor in % of population it killed in the countries it was fought in it scales up even more. For that reason for have voted Japanese (instigated the most deadly war ever) and Christians (instigated the second most deadly war ever).

[jusplay4fun]

NOTE the explicit bias of his poll. The only choice that is denigrated by ralf is "Shit Europe."

it seems ralf does not appreciate the advantages of living in Europe, the freedoms and the overall material well-being. We could speculate why.

I will advance the conjecture that ralf is JEALOUS of the Anglos who live around and near him. He sees how well they have things in life and does not believe they deserve or have earned any of that. They, in his mind, were born into their status. I will also advance the theory that he fled Palestine at some point in his life because life there for him and his family was so "great." He ends up as a refugee and immigrant there in the U.K., but wants to criticize nearly every aspect of life in the West and in the U.K. My suggestions (1) improve his situation for himself and his family; (2) enjoy what he actually does have; (3) think more about the future; (4) complain less; (5) work harder; (6) if all that fails to bring ralf some limited joy, then he can consider the option to move back to his beloved Palestine and post his online comments from there.

ralf's last post shows more of his bias and his agenda to advance his notion that he lives in "Shit Europe."

[DirtyDishSoap]

No one likes a know-it-all, J4. Have a beer

[bigtoughralf]

jp is also apparently incapable of reading. The poll option 'Shit Europe' is clearly referring to Central Europe.

[jusplay4fun]

jp is also apparently incapable of reading. The poll option 'Shit Europe' is clearly referring to Central Europe.

I read your Shit Europe and quoted you correctly. And you apparently MISSED my point about your obvious BIASES. Re-read, ralf.

And also you did not address the issue of your prejudices, ralf. I must have hit the nail on the head.

And you therefore agree with Duk that the 4 of the top 6 are Chinese killings.

[bigtoughralf]

After I saw you ranting about Palestine again I figured the most sensible course of action would be to avoid eye contact and sit at least two seats away.

Have you voted yet?

[jusplay4fun]

No one likes a know-it-all, J4. Have a beer

so are you saying I know it all? LoL.....

[jusplay4fun]

Let's discuss other mass killings:

Mass killings under communist regimes occurred throughout the 20th century. Death estimates vary widely, depending on the definitions of the deaths that are included in them and the political perspectives of those performing such tallies. Estimates account for executions, deaths from man-made and intentional famines, as well as deaths that have occurred during forced labor, deportations, or imprisonment. In addition to mass killings, terms that are used to define such killings include democide, politicide, classicide, genocide, crimes against humanity, holocaust, and repression.

The three largest contributors to the death toll are the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, and Democratic Kampuchea (modern day Cambodia), with other states[a] making up a fraction of the death toll. In the Soviet Union, the Holodomor famine and Stalinist period (1927–1953) saw the majority of killings. In China, the majority of killings occurred under the rule of Mao Zedong (1949–1976); the total number killed varies by tens of millions depending on whether the Great Leap Forward and the ensuing Great Chinese Famine are counted. To what extent the famines in either country were attributable to their leaders or to communism is debated. In Cambodia, under the rule of the Khmer Rouge and its leader Pol Pot, the Cambodian genocide killed nearly a quarter of the population from 1975–1979.

Notable estimate attempts include the following:[ab]

In 1978, journalist Todd Culbertson wrote an article in The Richmond News Leader, republished in Human Events, in which he stated that "[a]vailable evidence indicates that perhaps 100 million persons have been destroyed by the Communists; the imperviousness of the Iron and Bamboo curtains prevents a more definitive figure."[ac][ab]

In 1985, John Lenczowski, director of European and Soviet Affairs at the United States National Security Council, wrote an article in The Christian Science Monitor in which he stated that the "number of people murdered by communist regimes is estimated at between 60 million and 150 million, with the higher figure probably more accurate in light of recent scholarship."[ad]

In 1993, Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor to Jimmy Carter, wrote that "the failed effort to build communism in the twentieth century consumed the lives of almost 60,000,000."[34][ab]

In 1994, Rummel's book Death by Government included about 110 million people, foreign and domestic, killed by communist democide from 1900 to 1987.[35] This total did not include deaths from the Great Chinese Famine of 1958–1961

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

[DirtyDishSoap]

No one likes a know-it-all, J4. Have a beer

so are you saying I know it all? LoL.....

Someone shoot this man.

[bigtoughralf]

According to the poll it's a dead heat between Chinese and Christians for the world's deadliest people.

Poll changed so we can start exploring people's views in more detail.