Is God really Just?

[Juan_Bottom]

gain, knowing and understanding, even predicting does not mean manipulating.

God knows the result. He knew when he made us what would happen, BUT it is still up to each of us individually to either choose or not choose.

This doesn't sit well. God has already told us how the story is gonna end. So either this is his plan OR he's just spoiling it for everybody.

[PLAYER57832]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

He did not chose this, it was Hitlars mistake. But the Jews were returning to Isreal, indicating the begining of the prophecy. Isn't it odd that 2012 seems very likely, in coincidence that the prophecy could be true. I don't want to hijack this thread with 2012 so i'll stay on topic. The fact is you can't get mad at good for someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future. Now unless someone here is a furtune teller then we know nothing of what good is preparing us for.

He chose when creating mankind in the first place for this to happen. He created man with fault. He KNEW Hitler would make those decisions because of the fault God created him with. And he created mankind anyways. Simply so he could have others worship him. Selfish anyone?

Well, Hitler was probably not even the worst event in human history ... just our modern history.

But, the point is you don't know what the alternatives really were/are. As a Christian, we believe what is is better.

You don't have to agree or like it, but that is the belief.

[FabledIntegral]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

He did not chose this, it was Hitlars mistake. But the Jews were returning to Isreal, indicating the begining of the prophecy. Isn't it odd that 2012 seems very likely, in coincidence that the prophecy could be true. I don't want to hijack this thread with 2012 so i'll stay on topic. The fact is you can't get mad at good for someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future. Now unless someone here is a furtune teller then we know nothing of what good is preparing us for.

He chose when creating mankind in the first place for this to happen. He created man with fault. He KNEW Hitler would make those decisions because of the fault God created him with. And he created mankind anyways. Simply so he could have others worship him. Selfish anyone?

Well, Hitler was probably not even the worst event in human history ... just our modern history.

But, the point is you don't know what the alternatives really were/are. As a Christian, we believe what is is better.

You don't have to agree or like it, but that is the belief.

I merely used Hitler as an example because it was being discussed. My point is that the question hasn't been answered - if God knew that by creating us all this grief would occur, why did he do it? It might be our fault, but it's HIS fault that it's our fault. He created us with a natural tendency for destruction, and then blames us for sinning BECAUSE of how he made us.

He knew that we would commit atrocities, he knew that he would be condemning more than 50% of his creation to suffering for eternity, and he decided "yeah it's worth it creating mankind... I feel like being worshiped."

I still can't find an explanation - and that reason above all else is why I have a major problem with the Christian religion - even if it preaches that one should love, God is the hypocrite in the end all.

[kagetora]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

He did not chose this, it was Hitlars mistake. But the Jews were returning to Isreal, indicating the begining of the prophecy. Isn't it odd that 2012 seems very likely, in coincidence that the prophecy could be true. I don't want to hijack this thread with 2012 so i'll stay on topic. The fact is you can't get mad at good for someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future. Now unless someone here is a furtune teller then we know nothing of what good is preparing us for.

He chose when creating mankind in the first place for this to happen. He created man with fault. He KNEW Hitler would make those decisions because of the fault God created him with. And he created mankind anyways. Simply so he could have others worship him. Selfish anyone?

Well, Hitler was probably not even the worst event in human history ... just our modern history.

But, the point is you don't know what the alternatives really were/are. As a Christian, we believe what is is better.

You don't have to agree or like it, but that is the belief.

Well if God is omnipotent (all powerful) then anything is an alternative. Instead, he could have had Hitler paint hippos purple and have them fight ninjas to the death.

[Juan_Bottom]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

He did not chose this, it was Hitlars mistake. But the Jews were returning to Isreal, indicating the begining of the prophecy. Isn't it odd that 2012 seems very likely, in coincidence that the prophecy could be true. I don't want to hijack this thread with 2012 so i'll stay on topic. The fact is you can't get mad at good for someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future. Now unless someone here is a furtune teller then we know nothing of what good is preparing us for.

He chose when creating mankind in the first place for this to happen. He created man with fault. He KNEW Hitler would make those decisions because of the fault God created him with. And he created mankind anyways. Simply so he could have others worship him. Selfish anyone?

Well, Hitler was probably not even the worst event in human history ... just our modern history.

But, the point is you don't know what the alternatives really were/are. As a Christian, we believe what is is better.

You don't have to agree or like it, but that is the belief.

I merely used Hitler as an example because it was being discussed. My point is that the question hasn't been answered - if God knew that by creating us all this grief would occur, why did he do it? It might be our fault, but it's HIS fault that it's our fault. He created us with a natural tendency for destruction, and then blames us for sinning BECAUSE of how he made us.

He knew that we would commit atrocities, he knew that he would be condemning more than 50% of his creation to suffering for eternity, and he decided "yeah it's worth it creating mankind... I feel like being worshiped."

I still can't find an explanation - and that reason above all else is why I have a major problem with the Christian religion - even if it preaches that one should love, God is the hypocrite in the end all.

Whoo buddy!

[joecoolfrog]

Can somebody please quote me the passage in the bible that talks of freewill and indicates it is part of God's master plan, I feel that a good deal of interpretive licence is being used but I am happy to be proved wrong.

[jay_a2j]

I merely used Hitler as an example because it was being discussed. My point is that the question hasn't been answered - if God knew that by creating us all this grief would occur, why did he do it? It might be our fault, but it's HIS fault that it's our fault. He created us with a natural tendency for destruction, and then blames us for sinning BECAUSE of how he made us.

He knew that we would commit atrocities, he knew that he would be condemning more than 50% of his creation to suffering for eternity, and he decided "yeah it's worth it creating mankind... I feel like being worshiped."

I still can't find an explanation - and that reason above all else is why I have a major problem with the Christian religion - even if it preaches that one should love, God is the hypocrite in the end all.

Eve didn't have to eat from the tree of knowledge. God didn't make her eat from it. It was free will. If Eve would have not disobeyed God we would still be living in paradise. (and Adam was not blameless here either) Sin entered the world. Now all mankind must choose, to live in sin, or accept God's pardon. If we accept God's pardon we are expected to refrain from sin. Even though we will keep on sinning and we must repent of sin when we do sin. God is faithful and will forgive our sin, when we confess it to Him. (as long as we are covered with the blood of the Lamb)

[Neoteny]

I merely used Hitler as an example because it was being discussed. My point is that the question hasn't been answered - if God knew that by creating us all this grief would occur, why did he do it? It might be our fault, but it's HIS fault that it's our fault. He created us with a natural tendency for destruction, and then blames us for sinning BECAUSE of how he made us.

He knew that we would commit atrocities, he knew that he would be condemning more than 50% of his creation to suffering for eternity, and he decided "yeah it's worth it creating mankind... I feel like being worshiped."

I still can't find an explanation - and that reason above all else is why I have a major problem with the Christian religion - even if it preaches that one should love, God is the hypocrite in the end all.

Eve didn't have to eat from the tree of knowledge. God didn't make her eat from it. It was free will. If Eve would have not disobeyed God we would still be living in paradise. (and Adam was not blameless here either) Sin entered the world. Now all mankind must choose, to live in sin, or accept God's pardon. If we accept God's pardon we are expected to refrain from sin. Even though we will keep on sinning and we must repent of sin when we do sin. God is faithful and will forgive our sin, when we confess it to Him. (as long as we are covered with the blood of the Lamb)

Ew?

[kagetora]

I merely used Hitler as an example because it was being discussed. My point is that the question hasn't been answered - if God knew that by creating us all this grief would occur, why did he do it? It might be our fault, but it's HIS fault that it's our fault. He created us with a natural tendency for destruction, and then blames us for sinning BECAUSE of how he made us.

He knew that we would commit atrocities, he knew that he would be condemning more than 50% of his creation to suffering for eternity, and he decided "yeah it's worth it creating mankind... I feel like being worshiped."

I still can't find an explanation - and that reason above all else is why I have a major problem with the Christian religion - even if it preaches that one should love, God is the hypocrite in the end all.

Eve didn't have to eat from the tree of knowledge. God didn't make her eat from it. It was free will. If Eve would have not disobeyed God we would still be living in paradise. (and Adam was not blameless here either) Sin entered the world. Now all mankind must choose, to live in sin, or accept God's pardon. If we accept God's pardon we are expected to refrain from sin. Even though we will keep on sinning and we must repent of sin when we do sin. God is faithful and will forgive our sin, when we confess it to Him. (as long as we are covered with the blood of the Lamb)

But God knew Eve, and later Adam, would eat from the tree of knowledge, and then banished them from Eden for something he knew they would do beforehand. In fact, he created them, knowing their future actions. Unfair, no?

[FabledIntegral]

I merely used Hitler as an example because it was being discussed. My point is that the question hasn't been answered - if God knew that by creating us all this grief would occur, why did he do it? It might be our fault, but it's HIS fault that it's our fault. He created us with a natural tendency for destruction, and then blames us for sinning BECAUSE of how he made us.

He knew that we would commit atrocities, he knew that he would be condemning more than 50% of his creation to suffering for eternity, and he decided "yeah it's worth it creating mankind... I feel like being worshiped."

I still can't find an explanation - and that reason above all else is why I have a major problem with the Christian religion - even if it preaches that one should love, God is the hypocrite in the end all.

Eve didn't have to eat from the tree of knowledge. God didn't make her eat from it. It was free will. If Eve would have not disobeyed God we would still be living in paradise. (and Adam was not blameless here either) Sin entered the world. Now all mankind must choose, to live in sin, or accept God's pardon. If we accept God's pardon we are expected to refrain from sin. Even though we will keep on sinning and we must repent of sin when we do sin. God is faithful and will forgive our sin, when we confess it to Him. (as long as we are covered with the blood of the Lamb)

1. How should Eve have known to not eat from the tree of knowledge if she had no knowledge of good/evil or right/wrong? Is God now blaming Eve for something Eve could not have possibly known in the first place? If you don't know right/wrong, then how can you know disobeying God is wrong?

2. You're still missing the initial point. Even though Eve may have had freewill, God created Eve knowing that should would make the choice to choose the apple. Let me make another scenario for you. Suddenly you are granted with the power to give thought/personality to a robot. You make the robot curious. You know ahead of time that the robot, because it is curious, will take apart your house to examine it, which you don't want to happen. How do you know? You simply do, you have the power of knowing. However, it is NOT you who CAUSES the robot to take apart your house - it does it by its own curious nature, even though you tell it not to. Are you going to punish that robot that YOU made and DESIGNED to be curious in the first place? You knew beforehand that because you created it with a curious personality that it would take apart your house, but you did it anyways, and now you're punishing the robot for it!

3. Eve was coaxed into eating the fruit by the serpent - how was she to know that God was right and the serpent was wrong?

4. How is it just that God makes US pay for the sins of what Adam/Eve did? So you're saying that I could be living in paradise if OTHERS didn't f*ck up? And God instead, because some others fucked up, I'm at risk of eternal damnation and have to live with the suffering and tragedies in this world? Hardly!

5. Personally, I'd tell God to shove it up his ass if he expects me to be sorry for something I didn't do myself.

6. It's sin according to his standards. For all I know there's nothing morally wrong with homosexuality, with having more than one lover, sex before marriage, etc.

[jay_a2j]

1. How should Eve have known to not eat from the tree of knowledge if she had no knowledge of good/evil or right/wrong? Is God now blaming Eve for something Eve could not have possibly known in the first place? If you don't know right/wrong, then how can you know disobeying God is wrong?

God told Adam and Eve to eat from all the trees in the garden BUT the tree of knowledge. They disobeyed God. I guess they found out disobeying God was wrong.... the hard way.

2. You're still missing the initial point. Even though Eve may have had freewill, God created Eve knowing that should would make the choice to choose the apple. Let me make another scenario for you. Suddenly you are granted with the power to give thought/personality to a robot. You make the robot curious. You know ahead of time that the robot, because it is curious, will take apart your house to examine it, which you don't want to happen. How do you know? You simply do, you have the power of knowing. However, it is NOT you who CAUSES the robot to take apart your house - it does it by its own curious nature, even though you tell it not to. Are you going to punish that robot that YOU made and DESIGNED to be curious in the first place? You knew beforehand that because you created it with a curious personality that it would take apart your house, but you did it anyways, and now you're punishing the robot for it!

I hope you don't use the same logic for raising children. You knew that children sometimes misbehave, so how can YOU punish them when they do?

3. Eve was coaxed into eating the fruit by the serpent - how was she to know that God was right and the serpent was wrong?

My guess is that God created her and the serpent didn't?

4. How is it just that God makes US pay for the sins of what Adam/Eve did? So you're saying that I could be living in paradise if OTHERS didn't f*ck up? And God instead, because some others fucked up, I'm at risk of eternal damnation and have to live with the suffering and tragedies in this world? Hardly!

Oh, I'm sure you have enough sin racked up all by yourself to warrant eternal damnation, we all do.

5. Personally, I'd tell God to shove it up his ass if he expects me to be sorry for something I didn't do myself.

You should really watch what you say, He can hear you, ya know.

6. It's sin according to his standards. For all I know there's nothing morally wrong with homosexuality, with having more than one lover, sex before marriage, etc.

Aaaah, this is a beauty! This boils down to if absolute "right" and "wrong" exist. If they don't exist than NOTHING is wrong (rape, murder, incest, etc.) If it does exist, where did it come from? I'll spell it backwards for you "DOG". It doesn't matter what WE consider sin. God is the final authority.

[FabledIntegral]

1. How should Eve have known to not eat from the tree of knowledge if she had no knowledge of good/evil or right/wrong? Is God now blaming Eve for something Eve could not have possibly known in the first place? If you don't know right/wrong, then how can you know disobeying God is wrong?

God told Adam and Eve to eat from all the trees in the garden BUT the tree of knowledge. They disobeyed God. I guess they found out disobeying God was wrong.... the hard way.

So basically you have no answer? "I guess they found it out it was wrong in the end." You never addressed how they were supposed to know if the first place with no knowledge of good nor evil. You hear one thing from one being, God, one thing from another, the serpent.

2. You're still missing the initial point. Even though Eve may have had freewill, God created Eve knowing that should would make the choice to choose the apple. Let me make another scenario for you. Suddenly you are granted with the power to give thought/personality to a robot. You make the robot curious. You know ahead of time that the robot, because it is curious, will take apart your house to examine it, which you don't want to happen. How do you know? You simply do, you have the power of knowing. However, it is NOT you who CAUSES the robot to take apart your house - it does it by its own curious nature, even though you tell it not to. Are you going to punish that robot that YOU made and DESIGNED to be curious in the first place? You knew beforehand that because you created it with a curious personality that it would take apart your house, but you did it anyways, and now you're punishing the robot for it!

I hope you don't use the same logic for raising children. You knew that children sometimes misbehave, so how can YOU punish them when they do?

Huge difference with children. There's a huge factor in knowing before creating what's going to happen. If I had prior knowledge knowing that God was real and that if I had a child he would be condemned to eternity, I would not have that child merely to save him from being damned (assuming I brought up an atheist). Prior knowledge is what is significant in this argument - I did not create my children purposely with a natural tendency to misbehave. However, if I raised my child and it developed a mischievous personality due to copying my own behavior, it would make me a poor parent, even if what we were doing is wrong. So just as we may truly be sinning according to God's standards, he still created us with the tendency to sin (and you can't use the argument that God is a perfect example for us to follow simply because I had to try use an analogy to what you are describing).

3. Eve was coaxed into eating the fruit by the serpent - how was she to know that God was right and the serpent was wrong?

My guess is that God created her and the serpent didn't?

The hell does that mean? Are you going to trust your parents over every other source? They created you. Once again, with no knowledge of good or evil, you just admitted you have no argument. A guess, yet a very poor one at that.

4. How is it just that God makes US pay for the sins of what Adam/Eve did? So you're saying that I could be living in paradise if OTHERS didn't f*ck up? And God instead, because some others fucked up, I'm at risk of eternal damnation and have to live with the suffering and tragedies in this world? Hardly!

Oh, I'm sure you have enough sin racked up all by yourself to warrant eternal damnation, we all do.
[/quote]

According to you, or the Bible, I only have racked up this sin all by myself BECAUSE of what Eve did. If Eve didn't f*ck up, I wouldn't have any sin to accumulate, now would I?

5. Personally, I'd tell God to shove it up his ass if he expects me to be sorry for something I didn't do myself.

You should really watch what you say, He can hear you, ya know.

Then he also hears my mutter of "God damn it" when the CC dice gods dislike me.

6. It's sin according to his standards. For all I know there's nothing morally wrong with homosexuality, with having more than one lover, sex before marriage, etc.

Aaaah, this is a beauty! This boils down to if absolute "right" and "wrong" exist. If they don't exist than NOTHING is wrong (rape, murder, incest, etc.) If it does exist, where did it come from? I'll spell it backwards for you "DOG". It doesn't matter what WE consider sin. God is the final authority.

Agreed. There is no absolute right nor absolute wrong. Nothing matters - rape, murder... we're all rotting. The ends justify the means eh? Of course God is the final authority... haha when you can't think of ANY good reason yourself it's because "well he's all powerful he decides I don't know why but I'm not going to try and figure it out myself! Yeahhhh blind faith!!!"

I'm going to leave incest out because since when is that an absolute wrong? Hardly - it's only according to your religion really that it's considered a "wrong," and what society today has built upon it (and trust me, what society has built up has made it disgust me as much as it might disgust you, but the fact you would consider it an absolute wrong is laughable). Many ancient civilizations such as the Romans and Greeks had many incestuous encounters in their daily lives. But once again way to try to make you're own paradigm sound like it's the truth of matters.

[jay_a2j]

Agreed. There is no absolute right nor absolute wrong. Nothing matters - rape, murder... we're all rotting. The ends justify the means eh? Of course God is the final authority... haha when you can't think of ANY good reason yourself it's because "well he's all powerful he decides I don't know why but I'm not going to try and figure it out myself! Yeahhhh blind faith!!!"

I'm going to leave incest out because since when is that an absolute wrong? Hardly - it's only according to your religion really that it's considered a "wrong," and what society today has built upon it (and trust me, what society has built up has made it disgust me as much as it might disgust you, but the fact you would consider it an absolute wrong is laughable). Many ancient civilizations such as the Romans and Greeks had many incestuous encounters in their daily lives. But once again way to try to make you're own paradigm sound like it's the truth of matters.

Have you ever done something and felt bad about it afterwards? That's your conscience. Where does conscience come from? Did we "evolve"it? God created us with a conscience (maybe we got it from Adam and Eve eating the fruit which in turn gave them knowledge of right and wrong) Although, it seems if you ignore your conscience long enough, it goes away. This is the only thing I can think of to explain repeat criminal behavior.

[Neoteny]

Agreed. There is no absolute right nor absolute wrong. Nothing matters - rape, murder... we're all rotting. The ends justify the means eh? Of course God is the final authority... haha when you can't think of ANY good reason yourself it's because "well he's all powerful he decides I don't know why but I'm not going to try and figure it out myself! Yeahhhh blind faith!!!"

I'm going to leave incest out because since when is that an absolute wrong? Hardly - it's only according to your religion really that it's considered a "wrong," and what society today has built upon it (and trust me, what society has built up has made it disgust me as much as it might disgust you, but the fact you would consider it an absolute wrong is laughable). Many ancient civilizations such as the Romans and Greeks had many incestuous encounters in their daily lives. But once again way to try to make you're own paradigm sound like it's the truth of matters.

Have you ever done something and felt bad about it afterwards? That's your conscience. Where does conscience come from? Did we "evolve"it? God created us with a conscience (maybe we got it from Adam and Eve eating the fruit which in turn gave them knowledge of right and wrong) Although, it seems if you ignore your conscience long enough, it goes away. This is the only thing I can think of to explain repeat criminal behavior.

Well, if our conscience was "evolved," we'd have a pretty good reason to explain why some people's are flawed other than "god made them fucked up."

[PLAYER57832]

It was in God's plan that 6 million Jews died? It was in God's plan that millions of Palestinians lost their homes or their lives? It was in God's plan the situation in the Middle East now? That's a very good God. He loves humans so much. And most of those that saw Jews returning in Israel are dead now so your prophecy has not been fulfilled.

He did not chose this, it was Hitlars mistake. But the Jews were returning to Isreal, indicating the begining of the prophecy. Isn't it odd that 2012 seems very likely, in coincidence that the prophecy could be true. I don't want to hijack this thread with 2012 so i'll stay on topic. The fact is you can't get mad at good for someothing that might seem bad now, but will save your life in the future. Now unless someone here is a furtune teller then we know nothing of what good is preparing us for.

He chose when creating mankind in the first place for this to happen. He created man with fault. He KNEW Hitler would make those decisions because of the fault God created him with. And he created mankind anyways. Simply so he could have others worship him. Selfish anyone?

Well, Hitler was probably not even the worst event in human history ... just our modern history.

But, the point is you don't know what the alternatives really were/are. As a Christian, we believe what is is better.

You don't have to agree or like it, but that is the belief.

Well if God is omnipotent (all powerful) then anything is an alternative. Instead, he could have had Hitler paint hippos purple and have them fight ninjas to the death.

Yes, but then we would have been purple hippos and ninjas instead of people ... and that is probably the ultimate bottom line.

You might not like humanity, might not like who you are, but you cannot change those natures. You can change who you are, through your actions. That is up to you. God does (I believe) know what you will choose, but he is not telling you to do so. He just knows how you will act.

We are going in circles here. You have been answered, you just don't accept it. The answer is that Christians believe we have the ability to make our choices AND God knows what will happen. As Christians we believe that, even with all the tragedies, it is still for our own good.

How it can happen? Again, I have tried to give you an answer, but you don't like it. So, you can either find your own answer or, it comes down to "we don't really know" .. just like we don't really know how time actually works, etc. Remember "logic" is a purely human conception based purely upon the things we know in this world.

Science is full of discoveries that initially seem to "defy logic". How can an electron act as a wave and a particle? Why is it that markets don't work logically (they operate chaotically), etc. etc. etc.

[kagetora]

Yes, but then we would have been purple hippos and ninjas instead of people ... and that is probably the ultimate bottom line.

By that you ultimately missed the point I was trying to make.

You might not like humanity, might not like who you are, but you cannot change those natures. You can change who you are, through your actions. That is up to you. God does (I believe) know what you will choose, but he is not telling you to do so. He just knows how you will act.

We are going in circles here. You have been answered, you just don't accept it. The answer is that Christians believe we have the ability to make our choices AND God knows what will happen. As Christians we believe that, even with all the tragedies, it is still for our own good.

So you say the ultimate creator who designed us, and everything around us, only knows what we're going to do. But since he knew this before anything was created in the first place, being omnipotent, he could have changed it. Right?

So, if he didn't change it (or maybe he did to this) then he predestined it to happen.

If you have an omnipotent and omniscient creator, you cannot have free will.

[william18]

Yes you can, check the omniscnce and free will thread, I think I explained it pretty well there.

[PLAYER57832]

Yes, but then we would have been purple hippos and ninjas instead of people ... and that is probably the ultimate bottom line.

By that you ultimately missed the point I was trying to make.

No, I did put down the details wrong, but not your point. God could do anything. I just disagreed, as you have conveniently and continually "missed"

So you say the ultimate creator who designed us, and everything around us, only knows what we're going to do. But since he knew this before anything was created in the first place, being omnipotent, he could have changed it. Right?

So, if he didn't change it (or maybe he did to this) then he predestined it to happen.

If you have an omnipotent and omniscient creator, you cannot have free will.

You are just plain wrong. But, you are welcome to your opinion.

[Backglass]

"Is god really just?"

Other questions of equal merit:

• Are Unicorns really immortal?
• Are Leprechauns truly generous?
• Is Bigfoot a killer?
• Nessie...Friend or Foe?
• Is Zues truly forgiving?
• Odin. Does he care about the children?

[InkL0sed]

"Is god really just?"

Other questions of equal merit:

• Are Unicorns really immortal?
• Are Leprechauns truly generous?
• Is Bigfoot a killer?
• Nessie...Friend or Foe?
• Is Zues truly forgiving?
• Odin. Does he care about the children?

My thoughts exactly...

[kagetora]

Yes you can, check the omniscnce and free will thread, I think I explained it pretty well there.

Ok. Let's say (disregarding the logic I put forward) that you can have an omniscient god, and free will. Now, make that omniscient god omnipotent and the creator of everything. That does not work.

Let's say you run simulations on a computer of baseball games. You just let it run its course with no changes. The fact that you didn't change it is using your omnipotent abilities. If you did change something, that's obvious.

Now let's say God just wants to see where everything goes, like the simulator would. God wouldn't have to, because he already knew what was going on.

Yes, but then we would have been purple hippos and ninjas instead of people ... and that is probably the ultimate bottom line.

By that you ultimately missed the point I was trying to make.

No, I did put down the details wrong, but not your point. God could do anything. I just disagreed, as you have conveniently and continually "missed"

Lets find common ground. God, according to the Christian church, is omnipotent. There. This arguement is agreed upon, correct?

So you say the ultimate creator who designed us, and everything around us, only knows what we're going to do. But since he knew this before anything was created in the first place, being omnipotent, he could have changed it. Right?

So, if he didn't change it (or maybe he did to this) then he predestined it to happen.

If you have an omnipotent and omniscient creator, you cannot have free will.

You are just plain wrong. But, you are welcome to your opinion.

As are you.

[FabledIntegral]

Agreed. There is no absolute right nor absolute wrong. Nothing matters - rape, murder... we're all rotting. The ends justify the means eh? Of course God is the final authority... haha when you can't think of ANY good reason yourself it's because "well he's all powerful he decides I don't know why but I'm not going to try and figure it out myself! Yeahhhh blind faith!!!"

I'm going to leave incest out because since when is that an absolute wrong? Hardly - it's only according to your religion really that it's considered a "wrong," and what society today has built upon it (and trust me, what society has built up has made it disgust me as much as it might disgust you, but the fact you would consider it an absolute wrong is laughable). Many ancient civilizations such as the Romans and Greeks had many incestuous encounters in their daily lives. But once again way to try to make you're own paradigm sound like it's the truth of matters.

Have you ever done something and felt bad about it afterwards? That's your conscience. Where does conscience come from? Did we "evolve"it? God created us with a conscience (maybe we got it from Adam and Eve eating the fruit which in turn gave them knowledge of right and wrong) Although, it seems if you ignore your conscience long enough, it goes away. This is the only thing I can think of to explain repeat criminal behavior.

Conscience can partly be explained through evolution but predominately by society - many ancient tribes in the Amazons felt no remorse when killing and such. The Spartans encouraged stealing because it showed strength of character and survival. Many have done numerous acts of rape on defenseless women with little sign of regard. My conscience does not tell me the homosexuality is wrong. My conscience does not tell me that adultery is inherently wrong. My conscience does not tell me that worshiping an idol is anymore stupid than worshiping something unseen.

My conscience, however, very well does think that discrimination and slavery is wrong, things that are very prevalent in the Bible. So I guess my conscience is conflicting with what God gave me?

Hardly and argument that God gave us the conscience when there is so much contradictory evidence to it. The conscience is warped by society.