Send an atheist to church!

[Haggis_McMutton]

look at it this way.
If a religion placed much more emphasis on charity, rather than perpetuating itself, then it would be shortly out-competed and marginalized in favour of another religion that did value replication more.
Natural selection is a bitch.

Also, this does not at all mean that the priests and such are "in it for the money". Just that the organization as a whole works as an entity whose main purpose is self-reproduction. Of course charity can be a big part of it, just like how you can lead a "moral" life just out of pure self-interest. The problem with it though, is that the charity is somewhat incidental, and therefore might stop or change if conditions change.
Again, this can all happen without anyone being evil or greedy. For instance, perfectly decent people could become convinced that saving your immortal soul is more important than saving your earthly body.

Tis the inherent danger in trying to use things that aren't well grounded in reality/empiricism to your advantage.

I think Mother Theresa might be a good example of what I'm saying. Look it up.

[Baron Von PWN]

Well said Haggis. That's what I was going for.

[BigBallinStalin]

Now that consensus has been reached, who wants to go to church?

[DangerBoy]

that's true! In the Russia empire the church had it own farms with serfs and everything. They were probably just cutting out the middlemen.

What were the alternatives?

Eventually, they preferred one alternative in particular. It was a great success.

[Baron Von PWN]

that's true! In the Russia empire the church had it own farms with serfs and everything. They were probably just cutting out the middlemen.

What were the alternatives?

Eventually, they preferred one alternative in particular. It was a great success.

Serfdom doesn't play into this. It had been ended for a couple decades by the time of the revolution.

[Baron Von PWN]

Now that consensus has been reached, who wants to go to church?

For charity? I'm down.

[AAFitz]

Yes. My statement that Zaqat could just as easily be donations to the mosque/maintenance or expansion of the Religion remains accurate. However the second part 'most of the donations go to that" I cannot currently verify.

That aside, I think that my original premise, religions are primarily concerned with maintaining their religion and not charity, remains sound.

I agree.

Again, if they dont maintain their religion it simply wont be there, so its arguable that those that focus on charity too much, ultimately fail, but I think the hypocricy comes into play when the time and energy that could easily be spent on charity, the basic tenant of any real religion, is used for less useful or self serving purposes.

[AAFitz]

look at it this way.
If a religion placed much more emphasis on charity, rather than perpetuating itself, then it would be shortly out-competed and marginalized in favour of another religion that did value replication more.
Natural selection is a bitch.

Also, this does not at all mean that the priests and such are "in it for the money". Just that the organization as a whole works as an entity whose main purpose is self-reproduction. Of course charity can be a big part of it, just like how you can lead a "moral" life just out of pure self-interest. The problem with it though, is that the charity is somewhat incidental, and therefore might stop or change if conditions change.
Again, this can all happen without anyone being evil or greedy. For instance, perfectly decent people could become convinced that saving your immortal soul is more important than saving your earthly body.

Tis the inherent danger in trying to use things that aren't well grounded in reality/empiricism to your advantage.

I think Mother Theresa might be a good example of what I'm saying. Look it up.

You are probably discounting the example that Mother Theresa was, and the extent that she actually inspired the world to give to other charities, which is impossible to discount....while obviously being impossible to quantify.

[AAFitz]

I suspect that your actual frustration with my post, and why you completely ignored every word and instead went on a rant is because it obviously rang so true for you, and you were just trying to disguise that fact. I don't blame you there. My post was very direct, but I did not post it to annoy, but only as my opinion. I also did add that obviously not all religions were solely in it for the money, but I suspect the red in your eyes prevented clear reading on this one.

I also understand your passionate response, and perhaps the ignore if you feel so inclined, but it means no more to me than a convicted convict who is guilty screaming about the injustice of incarceration. What else is he going to say really?

yes, i'm angry because i SECRETLY KNOW YOU'RE RIGHT honestly, when that is someone's first line of defense, then i wonder if i should bother having a discussion.

you did NOT "add that obviously not all religions were solely in it for the money". you agreed with his "big claim". why don't you give examples of religions that are primarily in it for the money? clearly there are so many of them that it should be easy.

also, i'm not part of an organized religion; i go to church a few times a year at most. next time, try refuting my ideas instead of playing freud and attacking my motivations (and completely failing)

yours is a perfect example of the "everything i dislike must be evil" worldview that is fucking up modern society and stifling any attempt at reasonable debate.

You mean like some religious views on contraception, homosexuality, gay marriage, and women's reproductive rights?

Personally, I wouldnt say churches are fucking up modern society as you suggest they are, with the "everything I dislike is evil worldview". Id just say they arent in it, and society simply isnt modern yet.

yes, exactly like those. you are hardly better than the worst practitioners of the religion that you claim is so greedy and evil

Yes. I absolutely am worse than the evangelicals that drive to the TV studio in their Merc to convince poor people to send me money so I can build a summer home. My dishonesty and evil knows no bounds.

I have millions of dollars of paintings, gold, silver and jewelery and Ill never give it to those damn poor kids. I know that silly book I read out of nearly every day, more or less suggests this kind of behavior is against its entire message, but oh...greed is grand.

I regularly convince people to give me every one of their worldly possessions and income, and I offer in return some dramatic shows on Sunday, and set them up in the cheapest retirement home money can buy when the time comes until I retire that is, and then....well....hey...Im sure God will take care of them. I prayed a lot for them over the years, and this bentley is choice.

And I absolutely spread as much hatred of other human beings because they were born differently than myself as I can. I simply believe there is no place for differently born people, and all should align within the narrow guidelines I have constructed and fabricated, with the handy use of my most holy of books.

Busted.

I do disagree that I am worse than the filth that take advantage of the little boys and girls they were trusted to protect and teach. Gonna have to draw the line there oh pious one.

Also since you brought up failing....... I was not accusing all practitioners of evil and greed. It should have been quite clear it was the management ...for lack of a better term...in said religions that was more responsible for taking advantage of the majority of the practitioners as well. On an individual level, I am sure that perhaps one of the best people in the world could be an individual priest, rabbi, etc that simply is responsible for their own parish and could very well be the most charitable, selfless people in the world. I was referring to the people they send their money to. Also on an individual level, its also possible one of them is the worst person in the world, or at least, in the same group of worthless human beings which the world simply would have been better off, if they had never existed.

[daddy1gringo]

Why does BVP's statement upset you?

He didn't mention anything about inquisitions or telling people that they are bad. You're being very emotional.

Nah, just snarky.

[AAFitz]

Now that consensus has been reached, who wants to go to church?

At the risk of being creepy...I think it would perhaps be entertaining to attend church with you.

[john9blue]

Yes. I absolutely am worse than the evangelicals that drive to the TV studio in their Merc to convince poor people to send me money so I can build a summer home. My dishonesty and evil knows no bounds.

I have millions of dollars of paintings, gold, silver and jewelery and Ill never give it to those damn poor kids. I know that silly book I read out of nearly every day, more or less suggests this kind of behavior is against its entire message, but oh...greed is grand.

I regularly convince people to give me every one of their worldly possessions and income, and I offer in return some dramatic shows on Sunday, and set them up in the cheapest retirement home money can buy when the time comes until I retire that is, and then....well....hey...Im sure God will take care of them. I prayed a lot for them over the years, and this bentley is choice.

And I absolutely spread as much hatred of other human beings because they were born differently than myself as I can. I simply believe there is no place for differently born people, and all should align within the narrow guidelines I have constructed and fabricated, with the handy use of my most holy of books.

Busted.

I do disagree that I am worse than the filth that take advantage of the little boys and girls they were trusted to protect and teach. Gonna have to draw the line there oh pious one.

Also since you brought up failing....... I was not accusing all practitioners of evil and greed. It should have been quite clear it was the management ...for lack of a better term...in said religions that was more responsible for taking advantage of the majority of the practitioners as well. On an individual level, I am sure that perhaps one of the best people in the world could be an individual priest, rabbi, etc that simply is responsible for their own parish and could very well be the most charitable, selfless people in the world. I was referring to the people they send their money to. Also on an individual level, its also possible one of them is the worst person in the world, or at least, in the same group of worthless human beings which the world simply would have been better off, if they had never existed.

i was talking about your views and beliefs, not your actions.

do you know how religions start? name a religion (other than scientology) that began from a desire to make money

[BigBallinStalin]

Now that consensus has been reached, who wants to go to church?

At the risk of being creepy...I think it would perhaps be entertaining to attend church with you.

It wouldn't be too exciting. I'd most likely fall asleep. Then, that's when you can get creepy... =P

[AAFitz]

Now that consensus has been reached, who wants to go to church?

At the risk of being creepy...I think it would perhaps be entertaining to attend church with you.

It wouldn't be too exciting. I'd most likely fall asleep. Then, that's when you can get creepy... =P

I knew id regret typing that.

[AAFitz]

Yes. I absolutely am worse than the evangelicals that drive to the TV studio in their Merc to convince poor people to send me money so I can build a summer home. My dishonesty and evil knows no bounds.

I have millions of dollars of paintings, gold, silver and jewelery and Ill never give it to those damn poor kids. I know that silly book I read out of nearly every day, more or less suggests this kind of behavior is against its entire message, but oh...greed is grand.

I regularly convince people to give me every one of their worldly possessions and income, and I offer in return some dramatic shows on Sunday, and set them up in the cheapest retirement home money can buy when the time comes until I retire that is, and then....well....hey...Im sure God will take care of them. I prayed a lot for them over the years, and this bentley is choice.

And I absolutely spread as much hatred of other human beings because they were born differently than myself as I can. I simply believe there is no place for differently born people, and all should align within the narrow guidelines I have constructed and fabricated, with the handy use of my most holy of books.

Busted.

I do disagree that I am worse than the filth that take advantage of the little boys and girls they were trusted to protect and teach. Gonna have to draw the line there oh pious one.

Also since you brought up failing....... I was not accusing all practitioners of evil and greed. It should have been quite clear it was the management ...for lack of a better term...in said religions that was more responsible for taking advantage of the majority of the practitioners as well. On an individual level, I am sure that perhaps one of the best people in the world could be an individual priest, rabbi, etc that simply is responsible for their own parish and could very well be the most charitable, selfless people in the world. I was referring to the people they send their money to. Also on an individual level, its also possible one of them is the worst person in the world, or at least, in the same group of worthless human beings which the world simply would have been better off, if they had never existed.

i was talking about your views and beliefs, not your actions.

do you know how religions start? name a religion (other than scientology) that began from a desire to make money

money is simply purchasing power, and essentially just power, so Id say, near most of them

[Haggis_McMutton]

You are probably discounting the example that Mother Theresa was, and the extent that she actually inspired the world to give to other charities, which is impossible to discount....while obviously being impossible to quantify.

Well, fair enough.

But was her image justified or just damn good marketing?

[kentington]

BvP : You make some great points. I'd say that sometimes perpetuating religion and charity go hand in hand, sometimes they oppose and flip flop. Depends on even the church within one religion. I left the church I grew up in because they started going "business." They wanted to up their numbers, so they got rid of some volunteers and started paying people who they felt could bring more people. This is just one of the reasons I left that church.
I visited a couple of churches and found the one I currently attend.

This church has:
1. A benevolence fund which is separate from offering. This fund is available to those who have come upon hard times.
2. They asked for money for repairs on the building separate from offering.
3. They have a summer skate board program. They set up a parking lot in the summer with half pipes and skateboarding stuff to give a place for kids to skate without trespassing and getting into trouble.
4. They drive two buses down to the Salvation Army to pick up homeless or people who don't have transportation, give them suits to wear if they want, and provide coffee and donuts for Sunday mornings. They ask these people not to give offering because they are guests.
5. They support multiple missions to help build schools in other countries.
6. Someone mentioned dinners. During certain times of the year every Wednesday night they have dinner but it's not free. They have volunteers cook full meals and the money goes towards the cost of the food. I think it's $5/person and $12/family.

These are just some of the things there. Some of these things are completely charitable, some self service, and just a good mix. This suggests that BvP has hit the nail on the head with one church so far. With my previous church AAFitz kind of rings true. It's not all gold and rubies but it cares a lot about money.