Prosecutors go for 2nd Degree Murder in Martin Case

[kentington]

American Cities and States do plenty on the local and regional level and all States need help from time to time from a bigger entity than themselves. United we stand... divided we fall.

Sorry I just get frustrated sometimes. It happens to all of us. I largely agree with you. Sometimes, I feel like we aren't heard in the US because all of our politicians are rich. They are making laws but aren't affected by them and don't have to live by them.

[keiths31]

[

In my opinion, the "lack of civilian legal ownership of guns" and "murder rate" correlation does not explain the causes.

It may not explain it fully, but it certainly cannot be ignored either. Having a hand gun handily available because by law you can own it and use it, certainly makes it easier to use it.

[BigBallinStalin]

[

In my opinion, the "lack of civilian legal ownership of guns" and "murder rate" correlation does not explain the causes.

It may not explain it fully, but it certainly cannot be ignored either. Having a hand gun handily available because by law you can own it and use it, certainly makes it easier to use it.

I agree that having something gives you the opportunity to use it.

So, if you have a gun, then you have the opportunity to go to a school and murder 50 people, but (I assume) you haven't. Why? Because ownership of a gun is not the main issue. There's more to it.

[Symmetry]

If we outlawed guns it would be very difficult to get the guns out of the hands of those who would break the law. Personally, I think the US is too big. We should be broken down into smaller countries. Like AoG said we are too diverse by political views. Smaller countries with like minded people might spread out the extremists.

That's why we have 50 different states, except that the federal government keeps coming in and saying they can trump anything the state wants to do or just mandates that the states do what it tells them to do.

Pretty sure that's not why the US has 50 different states.

[Night Strike]

If we outlawed guns it would be very difficult to get the guns out of the hands of those who would break the law. Personally, I think the US is too big. We should be broken down into smaller countries. Like AoG said we are too diverse by political views. Smaller countries with like minded people might spread out the extremists.

That's why we have 50 different states, except that the federal government keeps coming in and saying they can trump anything the state wants to do or just mandates that the states do what it tells them to do.

Pretty sure that's not why the US has 50 different states.

We have 50 different states so we can have different local governments but still be part of the same country.

[spurgistan]

If we outlawed guns it would be very difficult to get the guns out of the hands of those who would break the law. Personally, I think the US is too big. We should be broken down into smaller countries. Like AoG said we are too diverse by political views. Smaller countries with like minded people might spread out the extremists.

That's why we have 50 different states, except that the federal government keeps coming in and saying they can trump anything the state wants to do or just mandates that the states do what it tells them to do.

Pretty sure that's not why the US has 50 different states.

We have 50 different states so we can have different local governments but still be part of the same country.

Just to be pedantic, the reason we have 50 states is because we had 48, decided to add Alaska and Hawai'i, and have yet to add Puerto Rico or Northern California to the list.

[Dukasaur]

If we outlawed guns it would be very difficult to get the guns out of the hands of those who would break the law. Personally, I think the US is too big. We should be broken down into smaller countries. Like AoG said we are too diverse by political views. Smaller countries with like minded people might spread out the extremists.

That's why we have 50 different states, except that the federal government keeps coming in and saying they can trump anything the state wants to do or just mandates that the states do what it tells them to do.

Pretty sure that's not why the US has 50 different states.

We have 50 different states so we can have different local governments but still be part of the same country.

Just to be pedantic, the reason we have 50 states is because we had 48, decided to add Alaska and Hawai'i, and have yet to add Puerto Rico or Northern California to the list.

If you really wanted to be pedantic, you should have pointed out that when Texas was admitted, it was with the proviso that it would subdivide itself into 5 states eventually. Congress knew Texas was too big to be one state, but didn't want to impose arbitrary boundaries, and so allowed for Texans to debate the matter and arrange the subdivisions themselves.

Except that the egos of Texan governments made it way cooler to be one superstate than five states of reasonable size, so they conveniently forgot about that proviso.

But obviously your need to be a pedant didn't burn hotly enough...

[spurgistan]

Pedant =/ know-it-all.

[Dukasaur]

Pedant =/ know-it-all.

Yes.

[Lootifer]

Here's a different perspective to look at: how can someone get their head around the idea that it's ok to break into other people's homes and steal their stuff and potentially hurt or kill them.

Now you're just not budging for the sake of not budging.

We have different perspectives, and Im happy to accept yours because it applies to YOUR country; I have no right to tell you how to run your country.

HOWEVER: I never eluded to what you have mentioned as being ok; it not, never will be; no rational person will think that. The kids were in the wrong, and deserved to be harshly punished; my point is in no way can I understand that their punishment should include death (which is effectively what happened since one kid was killed for intruding and the killer was not punished in any way).

[Night Strike]

Here's a different perspective to look at: how can someone get their head around the idea that it's ok to break into other people's homes and steal their stuff and potentially hurt or kill them.

Now you're just not budging for the sake of not budging.

We have different perspectives, and Im happy to accept yours because it applies to YOUR country; I have no right to tell you how to run your country.

HOWEVER: I never eluded to what you have mentioned as being ok; it not, never will be; no rational person will think that. The kids were in the wrong, and deserved to be harshly punished; my point is in no way can I understand that their punishment should include death (which is effectively what happened since one kid was killed for intruding and the killer was not punished in any way).

If those kids had stood trial for their crimes, they would not have faced death as a punishment. However, it is perfectly logical for an elderly man to fear for his life when 3 teenage males break into his house. And he has every right to use deadly force to protect himself and his property. And there sure as hell is no reason for the law to punish someone who was acting in self defense.

By the way, your very premise that people defending themselves is wrong is why we have to have Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws. It's absurd to let criminals get away with their actions and prosecute those who defend themselves. The position should be common sense, but most of our judicial system lacks common sense, so we have to codify it.

[Lootifer]

And thats where we disagree; which is fine. But me disagreeing with you doesnt mean I think we should encourage people to break and enter; so dont assume I do.

Thanks.

Also fun fact: If someone broke into my house in NZ and I was home; I would not fear for my life.

[Night Strike]

Also fun fact: If someone broke into my house in NZ and I was home; I would not fear for my life.

Are you elderly? And this situation was 3 people, not just "someone".

And thats where we disagree; which is fine. But me disagreeing with you doesnt mean I think we should encourage people to break and enter; so dont assume I do.

And I didn't think you were encouraging people to break and enter (sorry if my comment read as such). I was just meaning that if you can't get your head around people using guns to defend themselves (a perfectly legal act), I don't understand how criminals can think it's ok to break into someone's home (a completely illegal act).

[pimpdave]

Also fun fact: If someone broke into my house in NZ and I was home; I would not fear for my life.

What's the gun proliferation like in NZ?

I used to keep a gun by my bedside when I lived in the city. I could tell you stories.

[Lootifer]

Also fun fact: If someone broke into my house in NZ and I was home; I would not fear for my life.

What's the gun proliferation like in NZ?

I used to keep a gun by my bedside when I lived in the city. I could tell you stories.

Any hand gun you see is not in fact a hand gun, but a BB gun/fake.

You CANNOT get a gun in NZ [legally] for anything other than game hunting. There is ZERO provision of guns for personal protection.

Even our police dont carry them (which I dont oppose, but there isnt really a need - we do have an armed offenders squad which handles any serious stuff with proper weapons).

We do have a self defense law; but it doesnt cover use of deadly force and you need to rationalise your action far more than it sounds like you need to in the states (ie you need to have identified that they too have a deadly weapon and are likely to use it).

Also NS: 3 or 10 or 100 it wouldnt matter; id yell at them to f*ck off and/or call the police, if they challanged me id passively agree to their demands and let them take whatever and leave. Unless they were psychopathic killers my life will never be threatened; and in the case theyre psychopathic killers then im fucked anyway because a psychopathic killer is going to be far more prepared and willing to kill than I ever will be so no amount of personal armory is going to save me (that and its like a 1 in a kazillion chance of getting murdered by a random home invader).

[kentington]

Also fun fact: If someone broke into my house in NZ and I was home; I would not fear for my life.

This is the key difference. We have psychopaths here. Some people who love to hurt for the pleasure of it. If someone broke into my home, I would not wait to find out their full intent. If their full intent is to harm me or my family, then it may be too late to do something by the time I find out their intent. Breaking and entering is against the law and they are taking their lives for granite when do such.
I don't think breaking and entering is punishable by death, but I also don't think the victim should be required to be making these decisions in such a stressful way. Don't break and enter and you won't be killed for it.

[kentington]

Also fun fact: If someone broke into my house in NZ and I was home; I would not fear for my life.

This is the key difference. We have psychopaths here. Some people who love to hurt for the pleasure of it. If someone broke into my home, I would not wait to find out their full intent. If their full intent is to harm me or my family, then it may be too late to do something by the time I find out their intent. Breaking and entering is against the law and they are taking their lives for granted when do such.
I don't think breaking and entering is punishable by death, but I also don't think the victim should be required to be making these decisions in such a stressful way. Don't break and enter and you won't be killed for it.