PLAYER57832 wrote:Phatscotty wrote:What Dan Savage does not realize, or more likely does but chooses to mislead, is that the people who used to Bible to justify slavery is only half of the story. Abolitionists also used the Bible as their justification for why slavery should be ended.
But this is a common problem with a lot of people. It's not the Bible that is to blame, is the peoples twisting of it, using it to justify their agenda. The people who twist faith are at fault, not always the faith itself. Maybe Mr. Savage will become more intelligent someday and less divisive, expand his understanding. Suppose not while he is making a living spewing his bullshit though.
Also a great example of how some people close their minds and leave rationale and reason behind them. They are the most intolerant people of all, and hide behind tolerance.
Gotta agree with Phattscotty here, which to anyone following these threads shows a lot. I don't believe the Bible itself really is so much against homosexuality as some people wish to insist. Or, rather, I believe it is like many behaviors that may or may not be allowed in Christianity. However, whether something is condoned within the Christian church CANNOT be a measure of what is an is not allowed in society as a whole. Those that are most harmed by such demands are Christians, not just people of other faiths (other faiths does include atheistic beliefs in this context).
Today, when we are almost certain to see a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints (aka "Mormon") running for president, and perhaps to become president, it would behoove us all to remember the fights that church, the church of Jehovah's Witness, Quakers, Mennonites, etc.... etc.. have ALL waged to ensure that the then dominant Christian ideas don't become law of the land. Unless we recognize that religion is one of the most fundamental of our rights, then we will soon find we have no real freedom at all.
Whether you agree with homosexuality or not, whether you believe Christianity condemns homosexuality or not, unless you are willing to recognize that there IS a dispute, that this is something about which intelligent, caring and faithful people disagree.. then you are dmeanding that folks adhere to a narrow way of thinking. You are demanding that we eliminate free and open discussion in our society and move toward a concentration of laws dictating everyone's behavior in even the most private venues.
If homosexuality is a threat to society, it is because the values promoted don't stand up to it. If you require a law to promote your personnal morality then you have no true morality, you have rules you have been taught to follow without thought. Without thought, it is all too easy for someone with a truly harmful set of ideas to gain power.
Remember, it takes not just people stepping up in anger to create harm. More than anything else, it takes people of ambivalence who stand by and, even if they don't act the bully, simply allow the bully to do as he/she wishes -- and all to often they do so in the name of "freedom". Remember, freedom is not about denying others. You have the right to live your life how you wish, but if you will demand that others follow, then you are no longer fighting for freedom, but for oppression. That is allowable ONLY when you are fighting against real and true harm. Homsexual is put forward as causing that harm by some religious groups, but all objective evidence is that the only harm is that in the absence of oppression some people might make the free and open choice to be homosexual. (note.. intentionally not getting into the biology versus nurture bit for this particular argument, because the cause is irrelevant to the point of freedom).
