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SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

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SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Night Strike on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:12 am

The Supreme Court today rejected, on First Amendment grounds, the idea that unions can charge non-members for political activities even if they refund the money later.

The Court, in a 48-page opinon by Justice Samuel Alito, held that employees can be required to pay dues in exchange for the benefits they get from collective bargaining, but can’t be forced to effectively lend money to the union for political activities they disagree with. It was a blow to the Service Employees International Union, which first tried to make the case moot by offering refunds, and then argued it would be too difficult to get the assent of non-members before launching a campaign to defeat legislation it considered a threat to its existence.

All the judges joined in the final judgment in the case, although Justices Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Sonia Sotomayor said the majority went too far by ruling that unions must use an “opt-in” system for collecting special assessments, instead of the traditional “opt-out” system where the onus is on non-members to tell the union they don’t want to pay.

The decision, coming a short time after Gov. Scott Walker survived a union-led recall campaign in Wisconsin, further undermines the power of public-sector unions to compel employees to pay for their operations.The Supreme Court has uneasily upheld laws that require all employees to pay the equivalent of union dues to cover the costs of collective bargaining and other benefits they receive, under the theory it helps maintain “labor peace” by discouraging free-riders. Alito, in this decision, called that policy an “anomoly” given the strong First Amendment right against compelled speech or membership in any organization.

Unions are supposed to separate out political expenses and give non-members a so-called “Hudson notice” explaining the split and giving them the opportunity to pay only the non-political share of expenses. In this case, SEIU passed a special assessment after the Hudson notice, charging employees a 25% dues increase for an emergency “Fight-Back Fund” to defeat Proposition 75, which would have limited public-sector union rights.

Several non-members sued, saying they were being compelled to give the union money for a political cause they disagreed with. The union offered to refund non-members the previous year’s percentage rate of political spending but they rejected that, saying the fund was clearly all for political purposes.

The court, in its decision, said it was unfair to require non-members to file lawsuits or take other action to avoid paying for speech they disagree with. There’s no balancing of the “right” of unions to collect dues against employees’ First Amendment rights, the court said, since unions have “no constitutional entitlement to the fees of nonmember-employees.”

Worse, in this case, Prop. 75 would have bolstered non-member rights by requiring their consent in future political spending. Thus the effect of the procedure was to force non-members “to subsidize a political effort designed to restrict their own rights.”

Acceptance of the free-rider argument as a justificationfor compelling nonmembers to pay a portion of union dues represents something of an anomaly—one that we havefound to be justified by the interest in furthering “labor peace.” Hudson, 475 U. S., at 303. But it is an anomaly nevertheless.

The most far-reaching effect of the decision may be the court’s requirement of an opt-in system for public-sector unions when they impose a special assessment or dues increase. The court seems to be carving out a special case for public-sector unions, perhaps because of the political power they have to elect politicians who will serve their interests and diminish the political power of employees who disagree with them.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2012/06/21/supreme-court-says-unions-cant-bill-non-members-for-political-spending/

EDIT: My original statement of the judgement being 9-0 was false. Two justices (Breyer and Kagan) did officially dissent from the majority, making the vote 7-2. Two justices (Ginsberg and Sotomayor) agreed with the judgement but did not agree with the opt-in provision that the other 5 majority voters were including, so they wrote their own opinion on the matter.
Last edited by Night Strike on Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Timminz on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:27 am

The world would be a better place if unions were never invented.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Borderdawg on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:51 am

Timminz wrote:The world would be a better place if unions were never invented.


Not really. In their day they served a purpose, but today, much like our government, they have become a system of bloated bureaucracies (with the connivance of government) that exist only to provide for it's own interests rather than the interests of those it was created to serve. Again, much like our government. :lol:
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:35 am

Timminz wrote:The world would be a better place if unions were never invented.


Yeah!

Wait, this thread is about the abolition of unions? I guess I need to go back and read Night Strike's post that he quoted from a news source that didn't mention anything negative about unions at all and was completely unbiased reporting on a 9-0 Supreme Court decision where the Supreme Court consists of many pro-union justices.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby bedub1 on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:39 am

This is good news.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:44 am

It's good to see that this seemingly obvious position was seen by the Supreme Court as obvious, as well. Too many times that doesn't happen.

Remember, I'm reasonably pro-union.

As to opt-in, opt-out...I don't find that particularly important and not really worth the dissent.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Timminz on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:39 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Timminz wrote:The world would be a better place if unions were never invented.


Yeah!

Wait, this thread is about the abolition of unions? I guess I need to go back and read Night Strike's post that he quoted from a news source that didn't mention anything negative about unions at all and was completely unbiased reporting on a 9-0 Supreme Court decision where the Supreme Court consists of many pro-union justices.


You're reading too much into my post. Go back and take it at face value. Maybe less.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:43 pm

I can't believe the SEIU even tried to do this. I mean I can, but, wow, their greed knows no bounds.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:50 pm

Borderdawg wrote:
Timminz wrote:The world would be a better place if unions were never invented.


Not really. In their day they served a purpose, but today, much like our government, they have become a system of bloated bureaucracies (with the connivance of government) that exist only to provide for it's own interests rather than the interests of those it was created to serve. Again, much like our government. :lol:


This


I have 2 union pensions, both over 90% underfunded and in critical status. I think they can barely afford to send me the letter telling me that. That said, I was giving them about 1,200$ a year and have trouble naming one thing I have ever used the union for or they they did for me. They even ripped us off with the fee to play in the softball and bowling tournaments. (well there is one thing, if anyone wants to know ask and I will tell you the story) They always said they kept our benefits costs down, but I think that's just a bullshit line, because once the costs started going up, the new line was "well, at least it's not going up as much as everyone else..." :roll:

Anyways, unions have their place in the Parthenon of importance and good things, but that was mostly all in the past. Today's unions, especially public sector unions and teachers unions, they are mostly about themselves. You can't be the #1 lobby in the country and still be about the average Joe. Now the name of the game is political donations that come from the middle and lower class workers through union dues, and political favors the the union boss's and stewards and bureaucrat's.

Now it's mostly a redistribution scheme that takes money from the poor and middle and gives it to the top.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I can't believe the SEIU even tried to do this. I mean I can, but, wow, their greed knows no bounds.


Does "UNIONS!!!" come before or after "SOCIALISM!!!" in the hierarchy?
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:17 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I can't believe the SEIU even tried to do this. I mean I can, but, wow, their greed knows no bounds.


Does "UNIONS!!!" come before or after "SOCIALISM!!!" in the hierarchy?


Let's see what a president of the SEIU says...

Andy Stern wrote:workers of the world unite isn't just a slogan anymore




Union words, not mine....
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:21 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I can't believe the SEIU even tried to do this. I mean I can, but, wow, their greed knows no bounds.


Does "UNIONS!!!" come before or after "SOCIALISM!!!" in the hierarchy?


Let's see what a president of the SEIU says...

Andy Stern wrote:workers of the world unite isn't just a slogan anymore




Union words, not mine....


For a guy that never watches Fox News, you sure put a lot of their videos out here. And you didn't answer my question. Unless you're trying to say they both come after "OBAMA!!!".
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:36 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I can't believe the SEIU even tried to do this. I mean I can, but, wow, their greed knows no bounds.


Does "UNIONS!!!" come before or after "SOCIALISM!!!" in the hierarchy?


Let's see what a president of the SEIU says...

Andy Stern wrote:workers of the world unite isn't just a slogan anymore




Union words, not mine....


For a guy that never watches Fox News, you sure put a lot of their videos out here. And you didn't answer my question. Unless you're trying to say they both come after "OBAMA!!!".


dude.....that's Bill F'n Moyers! PBS!!!! What are you smokin? Oh, you watched 3 seconds of it? too bad, the answer to your question lies after the 3 second mark... I'm letting Andy Stern answer the question. It's at about 20 seconds in the video

so, what do you think? Doesn't what the president of SEIU said answer the question about whether unions are before or after socialism???

:D
Last edited by Phatscotty on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:39 pm

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Timminz wrote:The world would be a better place if unions were never invented.


Yeah!

Wait, this thread is about the abolition of unions? I guess I need to go back and read Night Strike's post that he quoted from a news source that didn't mention anything negative about unions at all and was completely unbiased reporting on a 9-0 Supreme Court decision where the Supreme Court consists of many pro-union justices.


You're reading too much into my post. Go back and take it at face value. Maybe less.


So you think the world would be a better place without unions? I respectfully disagree.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:45 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Borderdawg wrote:
Timminz wrote:The world would be a better place if unions were never invented.


Not really. In their day they served a purpose, but today, much like our government, they have become a system of bloated bureaucracies (with the connivance of government) that exist only to provide for it's own interests rather than the interests of those it was created to serve. Again, much like our government. :lol:


This


I have 2 union pensions, both over 90% underfunded and in critical status. I think they can barely afford to send me the letter telling me that.


The LIUNA pension plan is still being run by a court-appointed trustee after it was discovered they'd been moving $25,000,0000/year from it to the Colombo crime family back in the '80s ... at the time it was taking in that exact amount ... meaning 100% of member contributions were going straight to the Mafia!
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:48 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I can't believe the SEIU even tried to do this. I mean I can, but, wow, their greed knows no bounds.


Does "UNIONS!!!" come before or after "SOCIALISM!!!" in the hierarchy?


Let's see what a president of the SEIU says...

Andy Stern wrote:workers of the world unite isn't just a slogan anymore




Union words, not mine....


For a guy that never watches Fox News, you sure put a lot of their videos out here. And you didn't answer my question. Unless you're trying to say they both come after "OBAMA!!!".


dude.....that's Bill F'n Moyers! PBS!!!! What are you smokin? Oh, you watched 3 seconds of it? too bad, the answer to your question lies after the 3 second mark... I'm letting Andy Stern answer the question. It's at about 20 seconds in the video

so, what do you think? Doesn't what the president of SEIU said answer the question about whether unions are before or after socialism???
:D


It has nothing at all to do with whether you place "UNIONS!!!", "SOCIALISM!!!" or "OBAMA!!!" first.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Night Strike on Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:12 pm

After I logged off this morning, I realized that 2 justices did officially dissent from the majority, which made the judgement 7-2. Five justices wrote the majority opinion with the opt-in statements while two justices agreed with the judgement but not the opt-in, so they wrote their own opinion saying an opt-out system would be sufficient. My first post has been updated accordingly.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Ray Rider on Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:41 am

The first time I glanced at the OP I thought it read:

The Supreme Court today rejected, on First Amendment grounds, the idea that unicorns can charge non-members for political activities even if they refund the money later.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby chang50 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:36 am

Anyways, unions have their place in the Parthenon of importance and good things, but that was mostly all in the past. Today's unions, especially public sector unions and teachers unions, they are mostly about themselves. You can't be the #1 lobby in the country and still be about the average Joe. Now the name of the game is political donations that come from the middle and lower class workers through union dues, and political favors the the union boss's and stewards and bureaucrat's.

Now it's mostly a redistribution scheme that takes money from the poor and middle and gives it to the top.[/quote]

Did you mean to say 'Parthenon',or should this read 'Pantheon'?
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby bedub1 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:38 am

Woodruff wrote:It's good to see that this seemingly obvious position was seen by the Supreme Court as obvious, as well. Too many times that doesn't happen.

Remember, I'm reasonably pro-union.

As to opt-in, opt-out...I don't find that particularly important and not really worth the dissent.

Exactly. How could the SEIU even argue this? It's so obvious that now they just look like a bunch of ass-hats. All their fighting does is weaken their position and lower our opinion of them.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:24 am

bedub1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:It's good to see that this seemingly obvious position was seen by the Supreme Court as obvious, as well. Too many times that doesn't happen.

Remember, I'm reasonably pro-union.

As to opt-in, opt-out...I don't find that particularly important and not really worth the dissent.

Exactly. How could the SEIU even argue this? It's so obvious that now they just look like a bunch of ass-hats. All their fighting does is weaken their position and lower our opinion of them.


I agree. And the reality that Obama is connected at the hip to SEIU is even more troubling.


I bet Obama just writes another executive order around it anyways!
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:44 am

Phatscotty wrote:
bedub1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:It's good to see that this seemingly obvious position was seen by the Supreme Court as obvious, as well. Too many times that doesn't happen.

Remember, I'm reasonably pro-union.

As to opt-in, opt-out...I don't find that particularly important and not really worth the dissent.

Exactly. How could the SEIU even argue this? It's so obvious that now they just look like a bunch of ass-hats. All their fighting does is weaken their position and lower our opinion of them.


I agree. And the reality that Obama is connected at the hip to SEIU is even more troubling.

I bet Obama just writes another executive order around it anyways!


I knew it wouldn't take you long to OBAMA!!!!
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby spurgistan on Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:33 pm

In an amendment to conservative orthodoxy, free riders are OK as long as they limit their mooching to gains in the workplace fought for and won by labor unions.
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Re: SEIU Can NOT Force Non-Members to Pay for its Politics

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:20 pm

Woodruff wrote:It's good to see that this seemingly obvious position was seen by the Supreme Court as obvious, as well. Too many times that doesn't happen.

Remember, I'm reasonably pro-union.

As to opt-in, opt-out...I don't find that particularly important and not really worth the dissent.

My gut has been to agree. However, the argument against is that now this will lead to domination by big corporate donations.

This doesn't apply to general dues, by-the-way, the unions can automatically deduct that because otherwise, it would allow workers who don't contribute to benefit from negotiators paid for by the other employees. This struck down an additional payment they sought for conventions. I am not sure if that distinction was clear to everyone here?
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