What do Christians really think of Non-Believers?

[pmchugh]

Most Christians believe that the absolute morally correct punishment for lack of belief is an eternity of unbearable torture.

I don't think anyone could be so horrible as to really believe that hell would be a just and right system of punishment. In this way I am not sure that people have thought this through entirely, feel free to prove me wrong.

inb4 "choice"- people don't choose how they are punished.

[BigBallinStalin]

What about purgatory? If people are "mistakenly" born into the "wrong" religion, then aren't they allowed that appeals process (i.e. purgatory)?

[Phatscotty]

Infidels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[keiths31]

I couldn't care less what others believe/don't believe in. To each their own.

[john9blue]

personally i don't think an eternity of torture is fair, but i could be wrong.

I don't think anyone could be so horrible as to really believe that hell would be a just and right system of punishment.

really? i have no problem accepting the fact that people are this horrible.

[zimmah]

note that even though most "Christians" believe in hell, there's no biblical statement to back this up.

in fact, the bible clearly states that dead is dead, and the dead know nothing. it's like a dreamless sleep.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

also note that the very same 'hell' that "Non-Believers" will be send to, is the "hell" where jesus was for 3 days (the time between his death and his resurrection). Now, why would Jesus be sent to hell? doesn't make sense now does it? the word we translate with hell is Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew, and just means something like grave or death in general.

"Non-Believers" will just die and that's about it. no such thing as hell.

neither does every good person go to heaven either.

[pmchugh]

While I disagree with Zimmah's version of what is true I think his idea of Heaven and Hell are much more morally sound than mainstream Christianity.

personally i don't think an eternity of torture is fair, but i could be wrong.

I don't think anyone could be so horrible as to really believe that hell would be a just and right system of punishment.

really? i have no problem accepting the fact that people are this horrible.

You make me laugh john. Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to tack on "but I could be wrong" to any statement you make? Or is there something that makes you doubt this assertion in particular?

[Army of GOD]

>implying that objective morality exists
>2012

[Night Strike]

note that even though most "Christians" believe in hell, there's no biblical statement to back this up.

in fact, the bible clearly states that dead is dead, and the dead know nothing. it's like a dreamless sleep.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

also note that the very same 'hell' that "Non-Believers" will be send to, is the "hell" where jesus was for 3 days (the time between his death and his resurrection). Now, why would Jesus be sent to hell? doesn't make sense now does it? the word we translate with hell is Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew, and just means something like grave or death in general.

"Non-Believers" will just die and that's about it. no such thing as hell.

neither does every good person go to heaven either.

Didn't you claim to be a Christian in another thread somewhere? If so, you sure do leave out a bunch of statements from Jesus himself about the nature of hell, including several references to "weeping and gnashing of teeth". That sounds much different than just lying there dead. Plus, you didn't even quote the entire verse, so it really lends to you taking things out of context. However, I'm not familiar with that passage and don't know the entire context myself; I just know things that indicate a statement potentially being out of context.


As to the topic at hand, the punishment of unbearable torture mostly comes from the state of being separated from God. It literally will be torturous to be separated from any influence of God. No matter how bad things are here on earth, God still mitigates to make sure Satan doesn't get complete reign and destruction. He does not mitigate the conditions in Hell. Christ himself does not want people to go to hell, but if they don't accept his death for their sins, then they have to pay the price for their own sins.

[pmchugh]

As to the topic at hand, the punishment of unbearable torture mostly comes from the state of being separated from God. It literally will be torturous to be separated from any influence of God. No matter how bad things are here on earth, God still mitigates to make sure Satan doesn't get complete reign and destruction. He does not mitigate the conditions in Hell. Christ himself does not want people to go to hell, but if they don't accept his death for their sins, then they have to pay the price for their own sins.

Why?

Your post misses most of the question, this is not about God or Christ or what they want or the reasons why Hell is so bad. This is about the claim to absolute morality. This has real consequences for real people and I struggle to understand how you can think that any action, no matter how horrific deserves such a terrible punishment.

Unless you can somehow argue that God could not abolish Hell should he desire to, or that he is not fair in his judgements then you cannot avoid the question of why this is a just punishment for being created sinful.

[john9blue]

personally i don't think an eternity of torture is fair, but i could be wrong.

You make me laugh john. Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to tack on "but I could be wrong" to any statement you make? Or is there something that makes you doubt this assertion in particular?

if god exists then he would probably know more about what non-believers deserve than i do.

after all, i've never had anyone doubt my existence before, especially nobody that i've created.

[pmchugh]

personally i don't think an eternity of torture is fair, but i could be wrong.

You make me laugh john. Are you so insecure in your beliefs that you have to tack on "but I could be wrong" to any statement you make? Or is there something that makes you doubt this assertion in particular?

if god exists then he would probably know more about what non-believers deserve than i do.

after all, i've never had anyone doubt my existence before, especially nobody that i've created.

If your child doubted your existence, would you have any right to have him tortured for it? Can you imagine a perfectly good God adhering to this standard? I certainly can't. In fact scrap all that, can you think of any situation in which someone "deserves" Hell?

[Night Strike]

As to the topic at hand, the punishment of unbearable torture mostly comes from the state of being separated from God. It literally will be torturous to be separated from any influence of God. No matter how bad things are here on earth, God still mitigates to make sure Satan doesn't get complete reign and destruction. He does not mitigate the conditions in Hell. Christ himself does not want people to go to hell, but if they don't accept his death for their sins, then they have to pay the price for their own sins.

Why?

Your post misses most of the question, this is not about God or Christ or what they want or the reasons why Hell is so bad. This is about the claim to absolute morality. This has real consequences for real people and I struggle to understand how you can think that any action, no matter how horrific deserves such a terrible punishment.

Unless you can somehow argue that God could not abolish Hell should he desire to, or that he is not fair in his judgements then you cannot avoid the question of why this is a just punishment for being created sinful.

Because the very definition of "sin" is disobeying God, so it makes sense that the punishment for that sin would be eternal separation from God. By the way, your premise indicates that you don't believe absolute morality exists. It definitely exists, and it makes sense that there could be dire consequences for not following it.

[Night Strike]

If your child doubted your existence, would you have any right to have him tortured for it? Can you imagine a perfectly good God adhering to this standard? I certainly can't. In fact scrap all that, can you think of any situation in which someone "deserves" Hell?

Every single person deserves Hell because we have all sinned against God. In fact, NO person deserves heaven. But God decided to take mercy on us, so he sent his Son to pay the price for our sins. That means that all we have to do to avoid Hell is to accept his forgiveness and payment of our sins.

[john9blue]

If your child doubted your existence, would you have any right to have him tortured for it? Can you imagine a perfectly good God adhering to this standard? I certainly can't. In fact scrap all that, can you think of any situation in which someone "deserves" Hell?

no, but i have a limited imagination, lol

and my child would know that he had A father, even if he didn't know it was me.

[pmchugh]

Because the very definition of "sin" is disobeying God, so it makes sense that the punishment for that sin would be eternal separation from God. By the way, your premise indicates that you don't believe absolute morality exists. It definitely exists, and it makes sense that there could be dire consequences for not following it.

Why can't eternal separation purely be non-existence? This seems a very valid alternative that Zimmah put forward, what is the need for the burning and pain?

My premise does not rely on relative morality although it happens to be what I believe in. Even if we assume there to be absolute morals surely we agree that there must be justification for these moralities?

Also your last sentence is akin to saying; "It makes sense that the punishment for doing one evil act is eternal pain and suffering". Again I don't believe that you think that makes sense.

[pmchugh]

If your child doubted your existence, would you have any right to have him tortured for it? Can you imagine a perfectly good God adhering to this standard? I certainly can't. In fact scrap all that, can you think of any situation in which someone "deserves" Hell?

no, but i have a limited imagination, lol

and my child would know that he had A father, even if he didn't know it was me.

Not necessarily, in fact according to Solipsism you should doubt that you have a father (ever so slightly).

I think if you can't imagine a situation in which this is right, then there is no need to be wishy washy. Side with the atheists, just this once johny

[Ray Rider]

Let me get this straight, pmchugh; you start out with a skewed poll, claim those who disagree with you are brainwashed, and then expect intelligent people to take the time to have a reasonable discussion with you??

[Night Strike]

Because the very definition of "sin" is disobeying God, so it makes sense that the punishment for that sin would be eternal separation from God. By the way, your premise indicates that you don't believe absolute morality exists. It definitely exists, and it makes sense that there could be dire consequences for not following it.

Why can't eternal separation purely be non-existence? This seems a very valid alternative that Zimmah put forward, what is the need for the burning and pain?

My premise does not rely on relative morality although it happens to be what I believe in. Even if we assume there to be absolute morals surely we agree that there must be justification for these moralities?

Also your last sentence is akin to saying; "It makes sense that the punishment for doing one evil act is eternal pain and suffering". Again I don't believe that you think that makes sense.

From what I understand, the "pain" comes from a longing for good and a sense of drowning in ones sorrows and predicament, not from being prodded with pitchforks. God is completely perfect, so any sin cannot exist in his presence. Because of that, those who do not accept forgiveness are forced to spend eternity separate from God where no good exists. And non-existence isn't an option because every person contains an eternal soul (or being). One will only be able to exist with God or separate from Him; there are no other alternatives.

[pmchugh]

Let me get this straight, pmchugh; you start out with a skewed poll, claim those who disagree with you are brainwashed, and then expect intelligent people to take the time to have a reasonable discussion with you??

I am sorry if my poll seems skewed. I admit that the results may not be accurate if Atheists answer but the question itself I do not see as skewed?

Perhaps the brainwashed comment is not a nice thing to say even if it is what I believe to be true. I will edit it out as it I guess it is "offensive" but I think you should have a bit of a thicker skin.. especially on the internet.

[pmchugh]

Because the very definition of "sin" is disobeying God, so it makes sense that the punishment for that sin would be eternal separation from God. By the way, your premise indicates that you don't believe absolute morality exists. It definitely exists, and it makes sense that there could be dire consequences for not following it.

Why can't eternal separation purely be non-existence? This seems a very valid alternative that Zimmah put forward, what is the need for the burning and pain?

My premise does not rely on relative morality although it happens to be what I believe in. Even if we assume there to be absolute morals surely we agree that there must be justification for these moralities?

Also your last sentence is akin to saying; "It makes sense that the punishment for doing one evil act is eternal pain and suffering". Again I don't believe that you think that makes sense.

From what I understand, the "pain" comes from a longing for good and a sense of drowning in ones sorrows and predicament, not from being prodded with pitchforks. God is completely perfect, so any sin cannot exist in his presence. Because of that, those who do not accept forgiveness are forced to spend eternity separate from God where no good exists. And non-existence isn't an option because every person contains an eternal soul (or being). One will only be able to exist with God or separate from Him; there are no other alternatives.

OK that explains some things, at least the "eternal soul" part. But I still don't understand what would cause this "pain". Right now we are sinful and therefore separate from God, yet I do not feel this pain or at least I am unaware that I am feeling it. If your version of Hell is no worse than Earth then I shall accept it as morally just.

[zimmah]

how is it even possible for someone to be in eternal pain, when someone itself is not eternal.

remember, eternal life is a gift, and that gift is not granted to non-believers and those who sin on purpose. hence why they can never be punished for eternity, when they die, it's over for them.

[zimmah]

note that even though most "Christians" believe in hell, there's no biblical statement to back this up.

in fact, the bible clearly states that dead is dead, and the dead know nothing. it's like a dreamless sleep.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

also note that the very same 'hell' that "Non-Believers" will be send to, is the "hell" where jesus was for 3 days (the time between his death and his resurrection). Now, why would Jesus be sent to hell? doesn't make sense now does it? the word we translate with hell is Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew, and just means something like grave or death in general.

"Non-Believers" will just die and that's about it. no such thing as hell.

neither does every good person go to heaven either.

Didn't you claim to be a Christian in another thread somewhere? If so, you sure do leave out a bunch of statements from Jesus himself about the nature of hell, including several references to "weeping and gnashing of teeth". That sounds much different than just lying there dead. Plus, you didn't even quote the entire verse, so it really lends to you taking things out of context. However, I'm not familiar with that passage and don't know the entire context myself; I just know things that indicate a statement potentially being out of context.


As to the topic at hand, the punishment of unbearable torture mostly comes from the state of being separated from God. It literally will be torturous to be separated from any influence of God. No matter how bad things are here on earth, God still mitigates to make sure Satan doesn't get complete reign and destruction. He does not mitigate the conditions in Hell. Christ himself does not want people to go to hell, but if they don't accept his death for their sins, then they have to pay the price for their own sins.

i am a christian, but not the way you think i am. I like Christians but there's a lot of un-biblical things in their teachings as well. i actually read the whole bible, not only the parts that suit best with my idea of how i should interpret it. The bible can only be interpret in one way if you want all pieces of the puzzle to match, and it takes some digging to make them all fall into place, but it IS POSSIBLE. once you know that, you know you've found the truth.

also, i always put the verse that i quote there so you can always look it up in your own bible in context. but it's a bit overdone to put entire bible passages and all their references on here. i could do it though if that makes you happy. but i think we'd be better of to handle that in pm.

and besides, you pretty much answered your own question, the torture indeed comes from the complete separation from god. and even though Jesus was in the grave, god didn't seperate himself from him.

Also, how can the devil have reign over hell, since he's been banished to EARTH. also, the very same verse you mentioned, about the weeping and gnashing of teeth mentioned they did so because they weren't allowed to enter the place if i recall correctly, nowhere does it state they were in any physical pain, they were just sad that they weren't allowed 'to the party' so to speak.

you are right about the Christ doesn't want people to go to hell, as in he doesn't want anyone to die in the first place. that's also the reason he gave his life to set us free, as death is the price we have to pay for sins, but by paying the price for us, we have the option to bail out. As long as we believe in the offer itself and the value of the offer, and act accordingly, we don't have to die for our sins. That is the meaning of his sacrifice. For one person (Adam) brought death and sin to this world, and one person (Jesus) brought truth and life.

[zimmah]

From what I understand, the "pain" comes from a longing for good and a sense of drowning in ones sorrows and predicament, not from being prodded with pitchforks. God is completely perfect, so any sin cannot exist in his presence. Because of that, those who do not accept forgiveness are forced to spend eternity separate from God where no good exists. And non-existence isn't an option because every person contains an eternal soul (or being). One will only be able to exist with God or separate from Him; there are no other alternatives.

nope, genesis 2:7 (partly) states:

and man became a living soul.

we don't HAVE a soul, we ARE a soul. when we die, we die.

also compare genesis 3:19

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

it states nothing about pain or hell, it just states he returns to the earth he was made from. nowhere in the bible it states anything at all about adam and eve being burned in hell or anything.

also nowhere it states that their soul lives on

[Lootifer]

According to NS hell is a world free of gods regulation; sounds good to me!