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Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Well, at least they're being clear on this aspect of their foreign policy:

An early draft of the Republican platform published by Politico accuses the Obama administration of "attempting to impose" on the "peoples of Africa…legalized abortion and the homosexual rights agenda." Since 2006, with the urging and influence of US conservative Christian groups, several African countries have considered or passed laws outlawing homosexuality. The most infamous of them, proposed in Uganda, would impose the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality."


Link

So anyway, what do you think?
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:49 pm

I have been the most vocal person here about the horrible ways homosexuals are treated abroad, especially in Islamic countries.

Republicans bring it up, and women's rights for that matter, all the time. The Democrats are the one's who are all "shhhhhhhhhh" when it comes to Islamic countries treatment of gays and females. In fact, and evidenced many times here, any time a Republican tries to stand up for women or gays in Iran (for example) it is Democrats who attack Republicans as Islamophobic for even bringing it up. So your thread is complete bullshit

But don't let that stop you from skipping over the execution of homosexuals in foreign countries get in the way of pinning the blame on the foreign act on a party you dislike in a country that does not execute homosexuals....

Troll much?
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby patches70 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:14 pm

I think if Britain finds a country that does things like that then the Brits should invade and put a stop to it. Good luck with that!

We've been the World Police for too long. Time for England to step up and bring good to the world, and bleed for it in the process. After all, it'll be worth it in the end, won't it?

As for the US, I vote we decline that honor for the time being. We are busy bring Democracy to piss holes like Afghanistan. A place, that despite our best efforts and after thousands of American war dead and tens of thousands of American war wounded, the bastards still throw acid in the faces of girls trying to go to school. Haven't heard of such attacks recently of that sort, or the murdering of homosexuals and such in Afghanistan, maybe we killed the bastards.
Besides, we are ramping up for war with Iran. Africa will have to wait.

Besides, the Chinese got that-

Image


As you can see by the chart above, China has invested over $10 billion in Uganda of late. If the murdering of homosexuals and such messes with Chinese interests, I'm sure they'll do something about it.

Of course, if England would like to do something about it before that happens, I'd suggest you be very careful not to bomb any Chinese owned interests in the country and be careful imposing those sanctions that could well interfere with those self same interests......
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:24 pm

patches70 wrote:I think if Britain finds a country that does things like that then the Brits should invade and put a stop to it. Good luck with that!

We've been the World Police for too long. Time for England to step up and bring good to the world, and bleed for it in the process. After all, it'll be worth it in the end, won't it?

As for the US, I vote we decline that honor for the time being. We are busy bring Democracy to piss holes like Afghanistan. A place, that despite our best efforts and after thousands of American war dead and tens of thousands of American war wounded, the bastards still throw acid in the faces of girls trying to go to school. Haven't heard of such attacks recently of that sort, or the murdering of homosexuals and such in Afghanistan, maybe we killed the bastards.
Besides, we are ramping up for war with Iran. Africa will have to wait.


I'm a bit unclear about your argument. Do you think that criticizing a country for executing homosexuals is right or wrong? What about diplomatic sanctions?

You seem to have drunk the neo-con Kool-Aid on this and gone full war-war, and ignored the jaw-jaw.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby patches70 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:47 pm

Symmetry wrote:
I'm a bit unclear about your argument. Do you think that criticizing a country for executing homosexuals is right or wrong? What about diplomatic sanctions?

You seem to have drunk the neo-con Kool-Aid on this and gone full war-war, and ignored the jaw-jaw.


LOL, sanctions. Good one. The already dirt poor people, their lives get worse when nations impose sanctions.

You also seem to be missing the real point, the US's influence on Africa is limited. It's getting worse. Now, remember the Chinese investing all that money in the last two years and remember that it is China who started the Asian Dollar Exclusion Zone.

In Africa, nations are beginning to kick the dollar out.
For instance, starting on January 1, in Angola, all foreign companies will be required to pay their taxes in kwanza (the currency of Angola). US dollars will not be accepted.

For instance, Mozambique is attempting to force foreign companies to exchange half their export earnings into meticais (the currency of Mozambique).

For instance, Ghana has just announced that they will seek ways to reinforce "the primacy of the domestic currency".

For instance, in Zambia, if you were to have possession, pay with, quote prices, attempt to buy or sell with US dollars you will face 10 years in prison. The Dollar is outright banned there.

Now, since China is virtually taking over Africa, economically speaking (for now), the influence of nations like the US is waning. I'm not too sure how much influence England has over Africa, but I'm guessing it's not much. The problem with economic sanctions is that the Chinese are heavily invested in the continent. A fact you seem to be going out of your way to ignore.
Guess what?
China has veto power in the UN. Good luck trying to impose sanctions that will ultimately go against Chinese economic interests.

Then of course, there is the absurdity of using the equivalent of "sending a strongly worded letter" to the thugs who do such things as brutalize an entire nation. You must understand, ultimately the only way to change the minds of said thugs is to enter a steel jacket into their minds, at high velocity if possible. That means using violence.

That's what it comes down to, using violence to stop violence. Of course, there is still the problem of the pesky Chinese to deal with. So, as you should now see, and something the author of your article apparently has no clue about, forcing said nations to adopt Western methods, ideals and liberal democracy, is not such an easy thing. In the end, it takes blood.

Guess who believes in using force, if necessary, to bring liberal democracy and ideals to another nation? They are called Neo-Cons.

Are you a Neo-Con sym? You are certainly sounding like one.....
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:54 pm

patches70 wrote:Guess who believes in using force, if necessary, to bring liberal democracy and ideals to another nation? They are called Neo-Cons.

Are you a Neo-Con sym? You are certainly sounding like one.....


Silly stuff Pat, I said nothing about force. Perhaps read the OP before you set up a strawman next time, eh?

So- simple question for you- do you think that homosexuals should be executed? If no, do you think that you're wrong for saying that's it's wrong?
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby patches70 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:19 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Silly stuff Pat, I said nothing about force. Perhaps read the OP before you set up a strawman next time, eh?

So- simple question for you- do you think that homosexuals should be executed? If no, do you think that you're wrong for saying that's it's wrong?


Of course it's wrong in my view. I, or you, can say whatever we wish. Who cares? It doesn't change anything.

You didn't mention force, you mentioned sanctions.

Guess what genius, those sanctions end up hurting the very people you are trying to help. Sanctions mean the regular people freaking starve. Not only that, those same sanctions often enough only consolidate the power of the thugs in charge. When people who have very little suddenly find out they have even less, the thugs say- "See! This is because (The US, UK, whoever you want to put in here) has enacted sanctions against our nation!"

You are UK, what the hell do you care what we do in the US? Why don't you lobby your government (which sits on the UN security council no less) to impose these sanctions and get the thugs to change their minds. Good luck with that! I'll even bet the US would stand with you, somewhat. But, with reality being what it is as I've tried to explain to you though you seem to be infected with selective reading skills, China will be the fly in the soup.

In regards to China, sorry, but the UK is on her own. China is too important to the US to go messing with them too much.

Like I said, the plight of the homosexuals and what not in whatever part of the world you are so worried about, then do something about it yourself! Stop looking to the freaking US to solve all the freaking problems, injustices and horrible things in the world. Believe me, you don't want us involved. We tend to blow up a lot of stuff, spread chaos and build up severe blowback.

I'm the exact opposite of a Neo-Con, sym. I don't believe it is our place, our right or that we even have the ability to bring liberal democratization to the world through any means required.

As I said, the influence of Western nations on African nations is in serious decline as the influence of China on the continent grows. That's reality. I'm sorry you can't seem to accept it. So why don't you go do something about yourself. Be prepared to be disappointed though, the inequities of life only get worse.

It's up to the Ugandan people (or the people of whatever place you wanna point of finger at as an example of all that is wrong in the world) to fix it.

You can't force people to believe what you believe. The people you should be talking to/about is the actual people there living under those conditions. Send them money, support, do whatever it is that you think is right. Try to convince the people as a whole of those nations to accept your views. No force needed at all.
So get to work! It's a cause you can believe in!

As for me, I'm busy worrying about myself, my family and getting by in life as it is now. The plight of these people somewhere in the world, to me, is heartbreaking. Unfortunately, I require my heart to pump blood and keep me alive so that I can provide for the people I'm responsible for.
I can tell you one thing, though, if I happened to be a homosexual living in a place that is actively hunting and executing homosexuals, I'd have no choice but to fight after all. Or run. I'd probably be too poor to run, maybe I can appeal to some Brit to send me a plane ticket outta there. Yeah, that's the ticket. Sym, step right up! Time to put your wallet where you heart is!
But for God's sake, I'd really be in a bind if the meager staples of life I require to survive are cut off to me because England or the US decided to cut off aid or other sanctions. Hell, I'd be the first person left to die in that case! So, I'm not so sure that would be a good way to help me.....

In other words, it's easy to criticize, condemn or otherwise bitch about the situations in places like Africa, it's a completely different thing to actually do something wise, practical or even feasible about it.

Good luck working that problem out. If you can figure out a way to change all that with no violence, no people being cut off and starving or otherwise suffering more, then you, sir, would be up for a Nobel Prize of some kind for sure! And I'd be the first to pat you on the back and say "Great job, man!"
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:29 pm

patches70 wrote:
show


Ok, that was quite a weird rant for a basic suggestion that a party should oppose the execution of homosexuals. For the record, I am British, and I think that any nation that executes people simply because they're gay should be condemned.

In short, I ain't Patches.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby patches70 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:43 pm

Symmetry wrote:
patches70 wrote:[spoiler]
Symmetry wrote:

Ok, that was quite a weird rant for a basic suggestion that a party should oppose the execution of homosexuals. For the record, I am British, and I think that any nation that executes people simply because they're gay should be condemned.



Go for it! Send a strongly worded letter to whomever runs Uganda or wherever and sleep soundly that you did something about all that is wrong in the world.

Obama has done virtually the same thing, and it appears it had little effect since the article you linked says there are homosexuals still being executed somewhere. I think Obama should send another letter, what do you think?

For the record, I oppose the execution of homosexuals for being homosexual. I, unlike you sym, don't expect or wish to force anyone to adopt my views on anything.

Sym and Patches are walking around the streets of Kampala, the capital of Uganda. A Ugandan police officer arrests a man wearing bright colors and rainbows. The police officer proceeds to pull a gun, muttering something about "It's the law" and shoots the brightly colored man in the head.

Sym: Holy shit! Did you see that Patches?
Patches: Yeah, that's some fucked up shit there.
Sym: Well?
Patches: Well what?
Sym: Aren't you going to do something about it?
Patches: WFT? What do you want me to do about it?
Sym: I don't know, why don't you go over there and tell that cop how wrong it is to kill homosexuals.
Patches: Pfffft. Why don't you?
Sym: Me? He'd just arrest me and maybe shoot me! You go do something about it!
Patches: <sighs heavily, pulls gun from holster> Fine, fine, I'll go over there and shoot the cop then. If I see anyone else hurting homosexuals I'll shoot them too.
Sym: OMG! I didn't say shoot him! You can't do that!
Patches: What the hell else am I supposed to do about it? Jesus, make up your mind man!
Sym: Go over there and convince the cop he's wrong to execute homosexuals.
Patches: You're nuts. If you think it will do any good then you go do it yourself. I promise, if the cop tries to arrest you or execute you, I'll shoot him. Promise.
Sym: Na, forget it. You just don't understand what's right and wrong. Let's go get some falafel.
Patches: Falafel is disgusting.
Sym: Barbarian!
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby comic boy on Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:53 pm

Patches
I assume you also condemn the Evangelical US groups that have been actively pursuing an anti gay agenda in parts of Africa ?
As you seem overly concerned about what the British would do I will tell you , for a start it doesn't involve warfare , sanctions or threatening any Chinese citizens :D
Simply put British aid (in theory) is linked to human rights issues , abuse results in cash being witheld or withdrawn. It's a pragmatic approach and if the USA is adopting a similar policy I would have thought it should be applauded rather than condemned.
Given that a huge amount of foreign aid during the Bush years was channelled through Conservative Evangeligal NGOs ( who very much had an agenda )it does rather smack of hypocrisy for the Republicans to now complain about Obama interfering.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:56 pm

patches70 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
patches70 wrote:[spoiler]
Symmetry wrote:

Ok, that was quite a weird rant for a basic suggestion that a party should oppose the execution of homosexuals. For the record, I am British, and I think that any nation that executes people simply because they're gay should be condemned.



Go for it! Send a strongly worded letter to whomever runs Uganda or wherever and sleep soundly that you did something about all that is wrong in the world.

Obama has done virtually the same thing, and it appears it had little effect since the article you linked says there are homosexuals still being executed somewhere. I think Obama should send another letter, what do you think?


I think that a Republican platform opposing even the most basic opposition to the execution of homosexuals is pretty shitty. I appreciate that you have a fantasy about me, and how you and I would correspond if you had a point, but alas, we're here, and discussing reality, and not your dramatic adventures with falafel.

So, to rephrase, do you oppose the execution of homosexuals for homosexuality? If so, do you oppose governments saying so?
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby patches70 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:48 pm

comic boy wrote:Patches
I assume you also condemn the Evangelical US groups that have been actively pursuing an anti gay agenda in parts of Africa ?
As you seem overly concerned about what the British would do I will tell you , for a start it doesn't involve warfare , sanctions or threatening any Chinese citizens :D
Simply put British aid (in theory) is linked to human rights issues , abuse results in cash being witheld or withdrawn. It's a pragmatic approach and if the USA is adopting a similar policy I would have thought it should be applauded rather than condemned.
Given that a huge amount of foreign aid during the Bush years was channelled through Conservative Evangeligal NGOs ( who very much had an agenda )it does rather smack of hypocrisy for the Republicans to now complain about Obama interfering.



There are only 15 nations in Africa that don't criminalize homosexuality in some way, shape or form. It should make people get a nice warm feeling that South Africa, for instance, doesn't treat homosexuality as a crime. Of course, South Africa is the rape capital of the world, including the distinction of the highest incidence of baby rape. So there is that....

During British colonial times, in Uganda which was protectorate from 1894-1962, homosexuality was a crime, under British law. Shall I condemn Britain? I think not.

In most African nations homosexuality and homosexual acts are crimes. It's not my place to tell those nations what their laws should or should not be. I can certainly lobby them if I wished, I just don't wish to. The US can certainly lobby for whatever laws wished to be adopted. And guess what, the Evangelicals can lobby whatever the hell they wanna lobby as well. So can those who oppose the Evangelicals, they can lobby as well for whatever the hell they want.

It's up to those nations to determine for themselves.

It's easy to sit where we sit and judge using our standards. I'm not an African. I have no idea how Africans in general feel about homosexuality, and I don't really care. People can think what they wish.
And, it's a muddled up thing anyway.
Take Uganda for instance, since it was specifically mentioned in the article of the OP to be actively executing homosexuals. I looked into it. Ugandan law does indeed provide a death penalty for homosexual acts, provided any of these issues pertain-
*The offender is HIV positive
*The offender is the parent or authority figure
*The offender who administers intoxicating substances to perform the act on an unwilling participant
*The offender commits the act upon a minor, or person with disabilities
*The offender is a repeat offender

Now, I don't know about you, but if someone is committing homosexual acts and is knowingly HIV positive, that is a serious crime even in the US. If the Ugandans wanna execute someone for it, that's their decision.
A parent committing sexual acts on their children, homosexual or not, is also a crime in the US. Some in the US even believe such people should be executed. And an authority figure, What's his name, Penn State coach Sandusky, if he'd have done what he did in Uganda he'd have been executed. There are probably some in the US who think he should be.
Drugging someone, date rape in the US, is also a crime. A serious crime, homosexual or not.
And performing sexual acts on children or people who are disabled is pretty messed up.

Not sure what Uganda means by "repeat offenders" but I don't like the sound of that.

This is called "Aggravated Homosexuality" and is a serious crime in Uganda, just as those crime listed are also serious crimes in the US and Britain (I'd think, I'd hope). Homosexual or not. I'm not at all willing to condemn Uganda for any of that. I'm not embracing it either.

I don't agree with the Ugandan lesser charge of "Offense of Homosexuality", but the same type of laws were in effect in most nations around the earth until 2001. Probably not quite as severe penalties as Uganda, granted.

It's like a person who just quit smoking and then goes around yelling at anyone else who smokes. Or the newly practicing vegetarian who goes around turning over other people's steak dinners. By all means, quit smoking or be a vegetarian and through discourse attempt to get others to agree, just don't go freaking out about it. And if the person doesn't want to give up smoking or eating red meat, leave them alone then.

So, it's easy to sit back and armchair quarterback and try and tell everyone else what to think, what to do, what to believe. Each and everyone of us is doing it each and every day on this forum. Just as the OP tries to make people think a certain thing about certain people but still doesn't really give out all the facts.

It's all a big story designed to push emotional buttons and is a common tactic politically and socially. All designed to convince people of this thing or that thing. The reality is often quite different.
I prefer to allow people to think as they wish and condemn as little as possible. I certainly don't want to act emotionally because someone told me a half truth and end up causing more harm than good, which is what often happens.

So, believe what you want to believe, condemn or endorse whatever you want and know that it doesn't really matter much. You've still got to actually convince people to take your view. Are you willing to do it civilized like or violent like?
I prefer civilized. But violence is always an option. And for some people, violence is the only way you are going to persuade them to anything. Uganda and other African nations, for example. Sanctions are a level of violence any way you look at it. People suffer from it, most often the people you didn't intend to harm.

There are consequences and it's better to understand those consequences before going off half cocked based on a story that's not quite the whole story.....
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:59 pm

Hmm, the question Patches doesn't want to answer-

Do you oppose the execution of homosexuals for homosexuality? If so, do you oppose governments saying so?
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby patches70 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:22 pm

Symmetry wrote:Hmm, the question Patches doesn't want to answer-

Do you oppose the execution of homosexuals for homosexuality? If so, do you oppose governments saying so?


I've already answered both those questions. You are being quite asinine. Why?

No, I don't agree with executing homosexuals for being homosexual.
I don't care what other countries laws are. It is up to the people living in those countries to determine those laws. If I wished, I could care and I could lobby to try and overturn those laws. Each individual can make their own choice, I begrudge none for doing what they think is right. I can only attempt to convince them otherwise, and if that doesn't work there isn't much else I can do, nor care to do.

Since you oppose Uganda's executing homosexuals, then that must mean you are for HIV positive individuals having unprotected sex without telling their partner?
Are you for adults having sexual relations, homosexual or other, with children?
Are you for date rape?
I would hope not. Since you don't believe such crimes should be punishable by execution, what sentence would you give, if you had the power, for such offenses? Would the fact that the offender is homosexual make you give them a pass on such crimes?

For every offense Uganda puts homosexuals to death with the exception of "repeat offender" (I'm not sure what they mean by that, but as I stated, I don't like the sound of it at all), are all serious crimes in the US. Repeat offenders of any crime get harsher sentences. And I'm betting all those things are quite illegal in Britain as well. Including throwing the book at repeat offenders.

So Uganda puts those people to death.
Saudi Arabia cuts off the hands of thieves.
So what? It's not my place to tell any of those nations what their laws are supposed to be. My nation doesn't execute people for being homosexual. In the end, that is probably the best way to get other nations to change their laws. I know my own country has laws that I don't agree with. It's up to me to attempt to get those laws changed or repealed since I'm a citizen. I don't expect you to do it, you aren't a citizen of my nation. Fix your own laws however you want them in whatever fashion you deem best. More power to you.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:29 pm

patches70 wrote:I begrudge none for doing what they think is right. I can only attempt to convince them otherwise, and if that doesn't work there isn't much else I can do, nor care to do.


Just to be clear, the begrudging is the execution of people for being gay.

Lest anyone be misinformed, this is what the Republicans don't want the US to oppose.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:30 am

So the purpose of this thread was to troll patches. Mmmmmmmmmmmm OkAY!

How much influence do "US conservative Christian groups" actually wield on the public policy of African nations?

Which Christian groups?
Influence to what extent and through what means? How effective is it?
And which African nations do they allegedly influence?
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:12 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:So the purpose of this thread was to troll patches. Mmmmmmmmmmmm OkAY!


Huh? I think you might be surprised by the lack of consideration i give to Patches. He's an idiot, and a long-winded one at that.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:47 am

Without providing any evidence in support of one's baseless OP, it has become apparent to the CC community that this thread is actually a bedrock of trolling and flaming.

I fear for the safety of our CC community from the bad intentions of posters such as Symmetry.


With the powers invested in me, as self-appointed Defender of the ConquerClubbers, I hereby charge Symmetry with Conspiracy to Troll, Flaming, poor hygiene, and a really crappy attitude.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:18 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Without providing any evidence in support of one's baseless OP, it has become apparent to the CC community that this thread is actually a bedrock of trolling and flaming.

I fear for the safety of our CC community from the bad intentions of posters such as Symmetry.


With the powers invested in me, as self-appointed Defender of the ConquerClubbers, I hereby charge Symmetry with Conspiracy to Troll, Flaming, poor hygiene, and a really crappy attitude.


Hmm, evidence you say? You can always click on the link URL I put in the OP. The one showing that the repubs oppose criticism of anti-gay laws in foreign countries.

Ya know, those laws that criminalize homosexuality, some going so far as to make it punishable by death.

But hey, if you don't want to look at the link, I can't make you.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:27 pm

An early draft of the Republican platform published by Politico accuses the Obama administration of "attempting to impose" on the "peoples of Africa…legalized abortion and the homosexual rights agenda." Since 2006, with the urging and influence of US conservative Christian groups, several African countries have considered or passed laws outlawing homosexuality. The most infamous of them, proposed in Uganda, would impose the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality."

As for imposing the ambitious "homosexual rights agenda" of trying to prevent people from being murdered or imprisoned by the state for not being heterosexual, in December of 2011 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave a speech proclaiming that "gay rights are human rights, and human rights are gay rights." Shortly afterward, President Obama issued a memo "directing all agencies engaged abroad to ensure that U.S. diplomacy and foreign assistance promote and protect the human rights of LGBT persons." Texas Governor Rick Perry, then seeking the Republican nomination for president, said: "This is just the most recent example of an administration at war with people of faith in this country," and that "promoting special rights for gays in foreign countries is not in America's interests and not worth a dime of taxpayers' money." In some circles, not being imprisoned or executed for your sexual orientation is apparently a "special right."

Read Mac McClelland's must-read, on-the-ground account from Uganda here.
The United States itself is less than a decade past the 2003 Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas that struck down laws that criminalized homosexuality. Make no mistake however: The language in this draft of the GOP platform protests the Obama administration's efforts against laws that would levy criminal sanctions, including death, on people simply because of their sexual orientation.


Draft GOP Platform Defends Anti-Gay Laws in Africa
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby thegreekdog on Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:37 am

Ignoring that the Republican platform is stupid in this regard for many reasons, most heinous of which, in my opinion, is hypocrisy, I'm still uncertain as to what the president has done.

I'm also looking forward to Symmetry's threads on the other abuses that foreign nations do to their own people and how U.S. political parties should or should not craft their platforms in respect to these abuses.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:39 am

thegreekdog wrote:Ignoring that the Republican platform is stupid in this regard for many reasons, most heinous of which, in my opinion, is hypocrisy, I'm still uncertain as to what the president has done.

I'm also looking forward to Symmetry's threads on the other abuses that foreign nations do to their own people and how U.S. political parties should or should not craft their platforms in respect to these abuses.


I don't think the issue is whether they should or should not...but rather that they DID...unless I'm misunderstanding something here.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby Symmetry on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:04 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Ignoring that the Republican platform is stupid in this regard for many reasons, most heinous of which, in my opinion, is hypocrisy, I'm still uncertain as to what the president has done.


Erm, the links I provided show that the current administration has criticised these laws. That's kind of the point, no?

That the GOP thinks that even that is a step too far?

Given that the GOP platform in this case is a direct rebuke to the Obama administration's policies, and given that I've provided evidence backing that up, I'm not sure what you're asking me for.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:25 pm

Symmetry wrote:
An early draft of the Republican platform published by Politico accuses the Obama administration of "attempting to impose" on the "peoples of Africa…legalized abortion and the homosexual rights agenda." Since 2006, with the urging and influence of US conservative Christian groups, several African countries have considered or passed laws outlawing homosexuality. The most infamous of them, proposed in Uganda, would impose the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality."

As for imposing the ambitious "homosexual rights agenda" of trying to prevent people from being murdered or imprisoned by the state for not being heterosexual, in December of 2011 Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave a speech proclaiming that "gay rights are human rights, and human rights are gay rights." Shortly afterward, President Obama issued a memo "directing all agencies engaged abroad to ensure that U.S. diplomacy and foreign assistance promote and protect the human rights of LGBT persons." Texas Governor Rick Perry, then seeking the Republican nomination for president, said: "This is just the most recent example of an administration at war with people of faith in this country," and that "promoting special rights for gays in foreign countries is not in America's interests and not worth a dime of taxpayers' money." In some circles, not being imprisoned or executed for your sexual orientation is apparently a "special right."

Read Mac McClelland's must-read, on-the-ground account from Uganda here.
The United States itself is less than a decade past the 2003 Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas that struck down laws that criminalized homosexuality. Make no mistake however: The language in this draft of the GOP platform protests the Obama administration's efforts against laws that would levy criminal sanctions, including death, on people simply because of their sexual orientation.


Draft GOP Platform Defends Anti-Gay Laws in Africa


Here's the link from the OP: http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/08 ... x-marriage

Shall we continue switching sources?

Anyway:

Which US Conservative Christian Groups are responsible? The GOP? That's really stretching it.

For what policies in which African countries?
(only Uganda, apparently). Big difference between ALL AFRICAN COUNTRIES).

And to what extent was the influence and through what means? How effective is it?
(negligible. Even the OP and the links within don't really say much. Obama said, "okay Americans abroad, support these rights!" It's fluff, Symmetry. You seem to have been had.)


Anyway, thanks for posting a different link which the the OP didn't have. The claims are largely baseless, so far. You've been had because (1) you're so eager to find invisible bogie men who are out to get you and your group with which you identify, or (2) you're here to troll people.



If you do some critical thinking, you'll see that the OP terribly misconstrues things. (the following is the lack with the supposed evidence)

http://prospect.org/article/exporting-anti-gay-movement

US Christian Conservative Groups (as in all of them, or most, or whatever) =

the Uganda-based Family Life Network, which is supported by U.S. Christian-right groups, teamed with two leading anti-gay activists from the States, Holocaust revisionist Scott Lively and Dan Schmierer of the ex-gay group Exodus International. (note: just says, "support by US christian-right groups." Which ones? DUHH... it's called "propaganda," Symmetry.)

"marquee speaker was Lively, head of the anti-gay Abiding Truth Ministries in Massachusetts and author of The Pink Swastika,"
(OH WOW! US CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN = RADICAL FASCIST according to your OP. Haha, this is so stupid! I can't believe you've drank the kool aid on this one, Sym.)


"The Christian right has been involved in legislative or constitutional efforts to crack down on the LGBT populations of Kenya, Liberia, Namibia, Nigeria, Malawi, Rwanda, Zambia, and Zimbabwe as well."
(Right, the fascist guy and Exodus International. That's it. Oh, and the unnamed "US Christian-right groups" which support them. How did you get through graduate school with such low standards of evidence? Furthermore, they had a talk. How much influence does that have on public policy? What if the policymakers already wanted to hate on gays? Duh. The author is stretching the cause-and-effect relationship here, and so are you--yet again.)


Then it goes on with this holistic monster doing this and that without really naming names. Episcopal Church USA is one which was forced to do something by unnamed groups, blah blah blah. This is a bunch of crap, so I'm going to stop reading it.
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Re: Republicans- Executing homosexuals abroad is ok

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:30 pm

But wait! None of this changes the fact that you were trolling and flaming patches.

Haha, come on, Sym. Admit that you were being an ass.
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