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MR. Nate wrote:God by definition is eternally existant and entirely self sufficiant. The universe is not, which is why I keep asking the question.heavycola wrote:Where did god come from?
MR. Nate wrote:ID isn't a valid theory why? because it's not published in scholarly journals. Why won't they publish it in scholarly journals? it's not a valid theory. I think this means I win by default, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong.heavycola wrote: Creationism/ID is not a valid theory in ANY respect at all. I am done arguing about it, jay rather did my nut in with his creationist ravings...
My description of God is not a cop out, it has the orthodox description of God for the last 2000 years in Christianity. You said that "the universe may be it's own cause." I'm curious how that's possible. The reason I harp on this is because everthing we can see has a cause. We have yet to find the one "uncaused." Yet you're unwilling to accept another unseen (God) as the solution to the problem of causation. You would rather say that something created itself which seems nebulous at best.heavycola wrote:WHY? What do you mean 'by definition'? WHy is god and not the universe? Where does your reasoning come from? What does 'self sufficient' mean? I have just told you that a new branch of science suggests that the universe may very well be 'self sufficient'. Your description of god is just a cop out, a way to end the first cause argument in a neat and semantically rounded way, and nothing more.
If you're prepared to go there, you need to be prepared that a lot of things are "failed pathways" such as morality, truth, beauty, art, etc. You want to go that route?Bertros Bertros wrote:Of course not, some characteristics will be misfires in evolution, failed pathways if you like. Maybe religion will turn out to be one of these...
My description of God is not a cop out, it has the orthodox description of God for the last 2000 years in Christianity. You said that "the universe may be it's own cause." I'm curious how that's possible. The reason I harp on this is because everthing we can see has a cause. We have yet to find the one "uncaused." Yet you're unwilling to accept another unseen (God) as the solution to the problem of causation.
You would rather say that something created itself which seems nebulous at best.
Mr Nate wrote:Bertros Bertros wrote:
Of course not, some characteristics will be misfires in evolution, failed pathways if you like. Maybe religion will turn out to be one of these...
If you're prepared to go there, you need to be prepared that a lot of things are "failed pathways" such as morality, truth, beauty, art, etc. You want to go that route?
mirak wrote:In the meantime it is refreshing to discuss all this with someone such as yourself as opposed to the fire and brimstone variety that is unfortunately the norm.
heavycola wrote:OK Nate thanks for skipping creationism... but just out of interest where do you stand on genesis? Mythos or logos? Real or symbolic truths?
Mirak wrote:In the meantime it is refreshing to discuss all this with someone such as yourself as opposed to the fire and brimstone variety that is unfortunately the norm.
MR. Nate wrote:I would also argue that deviations from genuine religion are the reason that athiests exist. If more Christians acted in a more Christlike manner, I think a lot of these discussions disappear.
About that universe being self sufficient thing, how does that work with entropy? If that's a "creation" question, feel free to ignore it, but I am curious.
MR. Nate wrote:Mirak, I'm curious of your position on the claims that Christ made about being God. It's traditionally known as the "Trilemma" although I don't like the term myself. I've never heard a good explanation how Christ could be a brilliant moral teacher, without being somehow disqualified because of his belief that he was God.
2dimes wrote:I don't think you understood the concept Marik.
Usually the guy that go around saying they are God are quite insane and so don't make good teacher/philosophers.
David Koresh and Jim Jones for example.
I never said I was literate. Wait I maybe did say that, but I won't claim spelling capabilities.vtmarik wrote:Usually, but in Jesus case he was God and you know it because the Book tells you so.
Yeah....
And he's Mirak, I'm Marik
I wrote:the guy that go around saying...
2dimes wrote:I never said I was literate. Wait I maybe did say that, but I won't claim spelling capabilities.
So anyways what book are you talking about? If it's something reverend Kyle wrote I'd like a copy.
I just noticed english has become my second language.I wrote:the guy that go around saying...
Oh, sorry. So where in the bible?vtmarik wrote:2dimes wrote:I never said I was literate. Wait I maybe did say that, but I won't claim spelling capabilities.
So anyways what book are you talking about? If it's something reverend Kyle wrote I'd like a copy.
I just noticed english has become my second language.I wrote:the guy that go around saying...
You know, The Good Book. The Bible.
Duh.
2dimes wrote:Oh, sorry. So where in the bible?
2dimes wrote:Ah, ok. I thought you meant some quote where Jesus actually said it.
Have a great evening!
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