Conquer Club

Philosophy Final- God Exists

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Postby Itrade on Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:02 pm

If God is omnipotent, wouldn't it be perfectly plausible if he could bend the rules of logic? He can do anything and that way he could both cease to exist and be eternal and make a rock that he can't lift and still lift it. Logically we can't comprehend it but why should he be unable to do things WE don't understand?

And evil exists because of free will. Man can choose to do what will please god or what will please man. Sometimes it is a tough choice, some times not so much.

Free will was described to me once as being like a river system flowing out of a lake. As it flows it branches into many different streams which also branch out. Every time they branch out it's like making a choice. As a person swimming down the riveria of life, all we can see is that there is a choice, but not where it will take us. We can remember the choices we've made in the past, but this is a new one that we'll have to make. The destination of the choice is already set, as in God already knows where it'll take you if you choose to go left or right. The whole thing is set out, it's just that you have to make that choice. And making the right choice is often much harder than doing the right thing.

Eve wanted to be better than God.
Adam ate the fruit because Eve said it was good.

The lessons we can learn here are:
Ladies, you are awesome, but not THAT awesome. Don't self-improve to the point of damnation to all of humanity.
Dudes, if your ladyfriend asks you to do something that you know ain't right, don't do it. Show her who wears the pants, man!
And, er, snakes. Don't talk to the people. They might listen to you. And then you're forced to crawl on your belly and eat the dust.
Image My set is a bone coat-of-arms and chandelier! How cool is that?
User avatar
Sergeant Itrade
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:14 am
Location: Malaysia

Postby vtmarik on Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:36 pm

A hypothetical debate between Socrates and Jesus:
http://www.unm.edu/~humanism/socvsjes.htm


Guess who wins.
Initiate discovery! Fire the Machines! Throw the switch Igor! THROW THE F***ING SWITCH!
User avatar
Cadet vtmarik
 
Posts: 3863
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Riding on the waves of fear and loathing.

Postby heavycola on Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:38 am

MR. Nate wrote:
heavycola wrote:Where did god come from?
God by definition is eternally existant and entirely self sufficiant. The universe is not, which is why I keep asking the question.


WHY? What do you mean 'by definition'? WHy is god and not the universe? Where does your reasoning come from? What does 'self sufficient' mean? I have just told you that a new branch of science suggests that the universe may very well be 'self sufficient'. Your description of god is just a cop out, a way to end the first cause argument in a neat and semantically rounded way, and nothing more.


MR. Nate wrote:
heavycola wrote: Creationism/ID is not a valid theory in ANY respect at all. I am done arguing about it, jay rather did my nut in with his creationist ravings...
ID isn't a valid theory why? because it's not published in scholarly journals. Why won't they publish it in scholarly journals? it's not a valid theory. I think this means I win by default, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong.


I don;t read 'scholarly journals' these days, but what does publication have to do with things? Creationism is bunk. No evidence has ever been found to support it - in fact every scientific fact points the other way entirely. Complexity does NOT imply design and has not since Darwin's theory - peer reviewed and attacked fruitlessly on all sides by outraged xian scientists for years - demonstrated as such. All creationists have ever done is hang desperately onto the symbolic fairytales in genesis as fact, while trying to poke holes in natural selection (and failign miserably). There are people who spend their time trying to argue with creationists, but it's like trying to convince a three year-old that Thomas the Tank Engine isn't real and that trains don't talk or have faces.

morality - fine, let's talk about that. But please no more creationism...
Last edited by heavycola on Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class heavycola
 
Posts: 2925
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Maailmanvalloittajat

Postby MeDeFe on Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:54 am

One could never argue with Socrates anyway...
User avatar
Major MeDeFe
 
Posts: 7831
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:48 am
Location: Follow the trail of holes in other people's arguments.

Postby MR. Nate on Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:31 pm

At the heartfelt request of Heavycola, I shall refrain from bringing evolution / ID into the discussion, despite the fact that I feel unanswerd.

Itrade: you have a somewhat unconventional definition of omnipotence. I don't know that God CAN bend the laws of logic. Can God make a circle in the shape of a square? Let us say rather that logic emerges from the person and charachter of God.

vtmirak. That was actually very funny. It's a poor representation of Jesus, making him a stereotypical uneducated Christian, but funny nonetheless. For a more accurate description on the philosophy of Jesus, you may want to read On Jesus by Douglas Groothius. Very helpful on the subject, one of my favorites.

heavycola wrote:WHY? What do you mean 'by definition'? WHy is god and not the universe? Where does your reasoning come from? What does 'self sufficient' mean? I have just told you that a new branch of science suggests that the universe may very well be 'self sufficient'. Your description of god is just a cop out, a way to end the first cause argument in a neat and semantically rounded way, and nothing more.
My description of God is not a cop out, it has the orthodox description of God for the last 2000 years in Christianity. You said that "the universe may be it's own cause." I'm curious how that's possible. The reason I harp on this is because everthing we can see has a cause. We have yet to find the one "uncaused." Yet you're unwilling to accept another unseen (God) as the solution to the problem of causation. You would rather say that something created itself which seems nebulous at best.

Bertros Bertros wrote:Of course not, some characteristics will be misfires in evolution, failed pathways if you like. Maybe religion will turn out to be one of these...
If you're prepared to go there, you need to be prepared that a lot of things are "failed pathways" such as morality, truth, beauty, art, etc. You want to go that route?
User avatar
Corporal MR. Nate
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:59 am
Location: Locked in the warehouse.

Postby vtmarik on Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:42 pm

as truth, beauty, or art ever failed us?

I mean, yeah, beauty kinda caused the Trojan war but besides that...
Initiate discovery! Fire the Machines! Throw the switch Igor! THROW THE F***ING SWITCH!
User avatar
Cadet vtmarik
 
Posts: 3863
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Riding on the waves of fear and loathing.

Postby heavycola on Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:33 am

OK Nate thanks for skipping creationism... but just out of interest where do you stand on genesis? Mythos or logos? Real or symbolic truths?

My description of God is not a cop out, it has the orthodox description of God for the last 2000 years in Christianity. You said that "the universe may be it's own cause." I'm curious how that's possible. The reason I harp on this is because everthing we can see has a cause. We have yet to find the one "uncaused." Yet you're unwilling to accept another unseen (God) as the solution to the problem of causation.


Just because something has been orthodox for a while doesn't imply it is correct.

Yes i am unwilling to accept further causal links when they don't appear to be needed. You say god is timeless and self-sufficient - i keep pointing out that science is now reaching a point where we can say that about the universe. So why bother going the extra step? An intelligence complex enough to create the universe just poses more questions.

You would rather say that something created itself which seems nebulous at best.


Indeed it is...
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class heavycola
 
Posts: 2925
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Maailmanvalloittajat

Postby Mirak on Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:41 am

Nate I thought I had made my position clear

I do not accept that there is a God

Certainly not in the "orthodox" sense

I accept that as we do not yet know the origins of life and the universe that at some stage something happened which was "uncaused"

Call that God if you like

What I find irrational is the imposition of a personality, intelligence, emotions and other characteristics that all religions attribute to this unknown "event"

It is like saying that an earthquake is full of love or a thunder storm is compassionate, or an avalanche is perfectly without sin or a blossoming flower is happy....

Our urge to know cannot accept the unknowable and so through the millenia we have created elaborate explanations to satisfy this urge and answer the inexplicable

As science has gradually begun to answer some of our questions we should as a race become less dependent on the crutch of faith in a divinity....however as religions are essentially political and economic tools in the hands of the "chosen" there will always be those unwilling to relinquish their power over people like you and hence here we all are going around in circles

Those who believe tell those who do not believe to proove that there is no God...a first year law student knows that it impossible to prove a negative, and the religious take ultimate comfort in a flawed logic

So then we argue about the somewhat contradictory "nature" of God as defined by the believers to try to demonstrate that even within the artificial parameters established by generations of religious "scholars" the whole thing simply does not stack up. They in turn quote from a book which we do not accept as the word of God to demonstrate the "undoubted" existence of God...all very logical really

That is an overview of my position

In the meantime it is refreshing to discuss all this with someone such as yourself as opposed to the fire and brimstone variety that is unfortunately the norm.
User avatar
Captain Mirak
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Dubai, UAE

Postby Bertros Bertros on Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:25 am

Mr Nate wrote:Bertros Bertros wrote:
Of course not, some characteristics will be misfires in evolution, failed pathways if you like. Maybe religion will turn out to be one of these...
If you're prepared to go there, you need to be prepared that a lot of things are "failed pathways" such as morality, truth, beauty, art, etc. You want to go that route?


Absolutely. Maybe "failed pathways" is the wrong term, its certainly derogatory, which was not my real intent. Side effects is perhaps better.

mirak wrote:In the meantime it is refreshing to discuss all this with someone such as yourself as opposed to the fire and brimstone variety that is unfortunately the norm.


Hear hear :D
User avatar
Lieutenant Bertros Bertros
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:30 am
Location: Riding the wave of mediocrity

Postby MR. Nate on Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:50 pm

Has truth, beauty or art ever failed us? postmodern sculpture. That's a faluire of both art AND beauty. Ok, that's personal opinion, but still . . .
I would argue deviations of truth have caused every war ever. I would also argue that deviations from genuine religion are the reason that athiests exist. If more Christians acted in a more Christlike manner, I think a lot of these discussions disappear.

heavycola wrote:OK Nate thanks for skipping creationism... but just out of interest where do you stand on genesis? Mythos or logos? Real or symbolic truths?

I don't know that I can answer that without diving into creationism, but because it is a direct question, I'll give it a shot. I believe that the Bible is the actual Word of God, and that everything it says is true in the way that it claims to be. So, we can't press 21st century meanings into 4,000 year old writings. That being said, it appears to me that the book of genesis is meant as a history, not as a myth. That emerges mostly from Romans, and is a theological issue to me more than a scientific one. As for the science, I'll say this: Scientist today are working backwards based on dating models. Those dating models assume consistency in things like entropy. In my model, I have an event, called the Fall of Man, which is not only a spiritual event, but an unpredented physical event as well, which makes looking past it like looking through shattered saftey glass. as for specifics, if it's not explicitly stated in Genesis, I'm free to negotiate.

About that universe being self sufficient thing, how does that work with entropy? If that's a "creation" question, feel free to ignore it, but I am curious.

Mirak wrote:In the meantime it is refreshing to discuss all this with someone such as yourself as opposed to the fire and brimstone variety that is unfortunately the norm.
:oops: I must confess, I'm not specifically opposed to fire and brimstone, however, I think it's place is vastly overstated. Generally, I save fire and brimstone for those that believe it exists. :wink: Kind of loses it's punch otherwise, ya' know?
User avatar
Corporal MR. Nate
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:59 am
Location: Locked in the warehouse.

Postby Mirak on Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:41 pm

MR. Nate wrote:I would also argue that deviations from genuine religion are the reason that athiests exist. If more Christians acted in a more Christlike manner, I think a lot of these discussions disappear.


It may really surprise you to know that I am actually a great admirer of Christ and his teachings....or more accurately his philosophy
I readily acknowledge him as a figure who has probably had a greater influence on the history of mankind than any other person

I simply do not believe he was the son of God, or God for that matter...

I actually think his greatness stems from his being so human.

Much as I would like to see widespread "Christlike" decency I am still an Athiest
User avatar
Captain Mirak
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Dubai, UAE

Postby dewey316 on Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:21 pm

Nate,

I think that was a great way of putting the answer to heavycola's question. I will try to not get into creationism or any cosmogony. Once point to think about. In Isa. it states that at some point, Satan was cast onto the earth, and given rule over it. So, in the Genesis discussion, you have to account for this happening, even though it is not listed in the Genesis account. I guess heavycola, I would fall somewhere in the middle, much like Nate does (and likely a large group of christians), in that, I beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and to be absolute truth. But, I will humbly admit, that I don't understand it all, and I can't comprehend it all. Myself, I very much strugle with were to stand on this, because I don't want to belittle the Genesis account and I beleive it is 100% accurate, but I may not understand the machanics behind it. But, I also see where there are other clues in the Bible, that can point one in the direction of seeing it more as symbolic.

I think that may have been a non-answer, but I figure it is always helpful to see how diffrent people can view things.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class dewey316
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:30 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Postby heavycola on Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:56 pm

About that universe being self sufficient thing, how does that work with entropy? If that's a "creation" question, feel free to ignore it, but I am curious.


first up, i have never thought about this from the POV you put forward - that if there was a creation event several thousand years ago it would screw with the science... i still can't give creationism an iota of credibility though. Science explains SO MUCH that we take for granted - this PC is working according to the behaviour of waves and particles we have never even seen. Odd to decide that a 3,000 year old collection of writings, which most scholars now acknowledge was inherited form other cultures' creation myths and which was only ever intended as symbolic truth, should suddenly reverse science completely.

But i digress.

Entropy, as i understand it, is simply the flow of heat/energy from a hotter body to a cooler one until equilibrium is reached. This is how the universe works, and it is so well observed that it gets its own law. Even evolution isn't a law.

Big bang - all matter and energy balled up (no laws of physics apply, it was a singularity. Relativity predicts that physical alws break down at these points). From then on - ever increasing entropy. Eventually the universe will reach its heat death (Assuming the ever-expanding model turns out to be correct).

Possibly a terribel answer but there you go. I'm not a scientist.
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class heavycola
 
Posts: 2925
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:22 am
Location: Maailmanvalloittajat

Postby MR. Nate on Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:11 pm

I dislike the label that those who believe the Bible are opposed to science. Science is great at discovering what's going on. The scientific process is about observation. So to me, anything that can currently be observed is fair game for science, I won't argue. It's when science starts dipping it's fingers in history, and calling it science that I start having questions.

I bring up entropy, because as the world tends toward disorder, it becomes less and less stable, which makes it difficult for me to see how we went from an explosion (inherently a lack of order) to a relativly well ordered system, into slow degredation. It seems like the big bang was something of a miracle itself, that's all.

Mirak, I'm curious of your position on the claims that Christ made about being God. It's traditionally known as the "Trilemma" although I don't like the term myself. I've never heard a good explanation how Christ could be a brilliant moral teacher, without being somehow disqualified because of his belief that he was God.
User avatar
Corporal MR. Nate
 
Posts: 951
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:59 am
Location: Locked in the warehouse.

Postby Mirak on Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:47 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Mirak, I'm curious of your position on the claims that Christ made about being God. It's traditionally known as the "Trilemma" although I don't like the term myself. I've never heard a good explanation how Christ could be a brilliant moral teacher, without being somehow disqualified because of his belief that he was God.


We all have our flaws..
User avatar
Captain Mirak
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: Dubai, UAE

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:53 pm

I don't think you understood the concept Mirak. (Fixed spelling for VTMarik :D )

Usually the guy that go around saying they are God are quite insane and so don't make good teacher/philosophers.

David Koresh and Jim Jones for example.
Last edited by 2dimes on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 13085
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Pepperoni Hug Spot.

Postby vtmarik on Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:05 pm

2dimes wrote:I don't think you understood the concept Marik.

Usually the guy that go around saying they are God are quite insane and so don't make good teacher/philosophers.

David Koresh and Jim Jones for example.


Usually, but in Jesus case he was God and you know it because the Book tells you so.

Yeah....




And he's Mirak, I'm Marik
Initiate discovery! Fire the Machines! Throw the switch Igor! THROW THE F***ING SWITCH!
User avatar
Cadet vtmarik
 
Posts: 3863
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Riding on the waves of fear and loathing.

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:11 pm

vtmarik wrote:Usually, but in Jesus case he was God and you know it because the Book tells you so.

Yeah....




And he's Mirak, I'm Marik
I never said I was literate. Wait I maybe did say that, but I won't claim spelling capabilities.

So anyways what book are you talking about? If it's something reverend Kyle wrote I'd like a copy.

I just noticed english has become my second language.
I wrote:the guy that go around saying...
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 13085
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Pepperoni Hug Spot.

Postby vtmarik on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:41 pm

2dimes wrote:I never said I was literate. Wait I maybe did say that, but I won't claim spelling capabilities.

So anyways what book are you talking about? If it's something reverend Kyle wrote I'd like a copy.

I just noticed english has become my second language.
I wrote:the guy that go around saying...


You know, The Good Book. The Bible.

Duh.
Initiate discovery! Fire the Machines! Throw the switch Igor! THROW THE F***ING SWITCH!
User avatar
Cadet vtmarik
 
Posts: 3863
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Riding on the waves of fear and loathing.

Postby Anarkistsdream on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:45 pm

You meanthe book that has been translated by the Holy Roman Church who chose what to put in the book???? You mean the MEN that tarnslated it..?

The Bible is the same as reading Aesops Fables.
User avatar
Cook Anarkistsdream
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:57 am

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:47 pm

vtmarik wrote:
2dimes wrote:I never said I was literate. Wait I maybe did say that, but I won't claim spelling capabilities.

So anyways what book are you talking about? If it's something reverend Kyle wrote I'd like a copy.

I just noticed english has become my second language.
I wrote:the guy that go around saying...


You know, The Good Book. The Bible.

Duh.
Oh, sorry. So where in the bible?
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 13085
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Pepperoni Hug Spot.

Postby vtmarik on Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:31 pm

2dimes wrote:Oh, sorry. So where in the bible?


What, where Jesus went around claiming he was God?

"Nobody gets to God but through me, for I am the way, the truth, and the life"

That means he was God.

David Koresh saying "I'm Jesus"

He was just crazy.
Initiate discovery! Fire the Machines! Throw the switch Igor! THROW THE F***ING SWITCH!
User avatar
Cadet vtmarik
 
Posts: 3863
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Riding on the waves of fear and loathing.

Postby 2dimes on Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:40 pm

Ah, ok. I thought you meant some quote where Jesus actually said it.

Have a great evening!
User avatar
Corporal 2dimes
 
Posts: 13085
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 1:08 pm
Location: Pepperoni Hug Spot.

Postby Anarkistsdream on Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:43 pm

So, you just blindly believe the translation done by the Pope and the Roman Catholic church all that time ago? So, where are the rest of the Gospels, such as 'Moses' that spoke of angels??? The church did not sanction it, so it was threw to the side and eventually added to the Kabbalah.

The Bible is a fictional account.

I suppose you believe Le Morte d'Artur also?
User avatar
Cook Anarkistsdream
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:57 am

Postby vtmarik on Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:57 pm

2dimes wrote:Ah, ok. I thought you meant some quote where Jesus actually said it.

Have a great evening!


He did.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30)

Image
Initiate discovery! Fire the Machines! Throw the switch Igor! THROW THE F***ING SWITCH!
User avatar
Cadet vtmarik
 
Posts: 3863
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 9:51 am
Location: Riding on the waves of fear and loathing.

PreviousNext

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users