Bradley Manning: Traitor?

[Woodruff]

It seems to me that China has a point AND that Ai's detention contains a lot of similarity to that of Bradley Manning.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/10/us-china-usa-rights-idUSTRE7382EH20110410

[Symmetry]

It seems to me that China has a point AND that Ai's detention contains a lot of similarity to that of Bradley Manning.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/10/us-china-usa-rights-idUSTRE7382EH20110410

It really doesn't do the US any favours. Both Assange and Manning have been touted by China for the Nobel Peace Prize. It's becoming a weird race to the bottom. China can justify whatever it wants in the name of state security, as can the US. Both get to say "Hey- they're doing it too". Anything goes.

I don't think the US is as bad as the Chinese government, and I don't excuse the UK's role at all, but this is a race to find some middle point of respectability that sees the west losing its values and other countries gaining credence.

If we end up with some point of moral equivalency where China can disappear a citizen for security reasons, and the US can basically do the same, we're really in trouble. The cases are very different, but the similarities are disturbing, particularly the political reasoning behind them.

Is China becoming more Westernised, or is the West becoming more like China?

[BigBallinStalin]

It seems to me that China has a point AND that Ai's detention contains a lot of similarity to that of Bradley Manning.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/10/us-china-usa-rights-idUSTRE7382EH20110410

It really doesn't do the US any favours. Both Assange and Manning have been touted by China for the Nobel Peace Prize. It's becoming a weird race to the bottom. China can justify whatever it wants in the name of state security, as can the US. Both get to say "Hey- they're doing it too". Anything goes.

I don't think the US is as bad as the Chinese government, and I don't excuse the UK's role at all, but this is a race to find some middle point of respectability that sees the west losing its values and other countries gaining credence.

If we end up with some point of moral equivalency where China can disappear a citizen for security reasons, and the US can basically do the same, we're really in trouble. The cases are very different, but the similarities are disturbing, particularly the political reasoning behind them.

Is China becoming more Westernised, or is the West becoming more like China?

Haha, I like that question!

But I would never equate Single Party authoritarianism + market economy with the US's "two party but not really" republicanism + market economy. The main difference is that the US has better maintained checks and balances and lesser corruption compared to China.

In general, US citizens enjoy lot more freedom than the Chinese.

What we'll see in 20-30 years is China behaving more like the US on the international scene (i.e. more dominating, more demanding).

[Aradhus]

History will remember Bradley Manning as a hero.

Doubt it. Guy probably won't even be a footnote. Maybe he will make it onto the 'I got fucked over by the us government and all I got was my name on this fucking list' list.

[spurgistan]

[Symmetry]

It seems to me that China has a point AND that Ai's detention contains a lot of similarity to that of Bradley Manning.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/10/us-china-usa-rights-idUSTRE7382EH20110410

It really doesn't do the US any favours. Both Assange and Manning have been touted by China for the Nobel Peace Prize. It's becoming a weird race to the bottom. China can justify whatever it wants in the name of state security, as can the US. Both get to say "Hey- they're doing it too". Anything goes.

I don't think the US is as bad as the Chinese government, and I don't excuse the UK's role at all, but this is a race to find some middle point of respectability that sees the west losing its values and other countries gaining credence.

If we end up with some point of moral equivalency where China can disappear a citizen for security reasons, and the US can basically do the same, we're really in trouble. The cases are very different, but the similarities are disturbing, particularly the political reasoning behind them.

Is China becoming more Westernised, or is the West becoming more like China?

Haha, I like that question!

But I would never equate Single Party authoritarianism + market economy with the US's "two party but not really" republicanism + market economy. The main difference is that the US has better maintained checks and balances and lesser corruption compared to China.

In general, US citizens enjoy lot more freedom than the Chinese.

What we'll see in 20-30 years is China behaving more like the US on the international scene (i.e. more dominating, more demanding).

I think we'll see movement both ways. The stuff with Manning gives China a lot of ground to ask why the detention and isolation of citizens who criticise the government, or publicise corruption should not be allowed.

Meanwhile, the west is using increasingly authoritarian tactics to crack down on dissent. Torture, arrests without trial, and surveillance states.

We're rushing to meet each other.

[thegreekdog]

Apparently, the difference is a matter of degree I guess. We also ostensibly have a free press, which helps to regulate the government in this regard (again ostensibly).

[Symmetry]

Apparently, the difference is a matter of degree I guess. We also ostensibly have a free press, which helps to regulate the government in this regard (again ostensibly).

I'd agree with that, and I guess my point was that I don't think the West will become China as it is now. More that they'll push towards where we are now, and we'll push in their direction too. Say, for example, increasing control of media.

With the Manning case, and more widely Assange, we're pretty close to China already. It's increasingly clear that what Manning may have done was more embarrassing than harmful, and that a lot of the rhetoric is about the US not wanting to seem weak.

[BigBallinStalin]

Apparently, the difference is a matter of degree I guess. We also ostensibly have a free press, which helps to regulate the government in this regard (again ostensibly).

I'd agree with that, and I guess my point was that I don't think the West will become China as it is now. More that they'll push towards where we are now, and we'll push in their direction too. Say, for example, increasing control of media.

With the Manning case, and more widely Assange, we're pretty close to China already. It's increasingly clear that what Manning may have done was more embarrassing than harmful, and that a lot of the rhetoric is about the US not wanting to seem weak.

I really wouldn't go that far to say that. This Assange and Manning thing happens much more often in China and hardly anyone really knows about most of them. Occasionally, you'll hear about someone like Ai.

The courts in China are extremely corrupt, and if one were to criticize the government through his field of study in economics and prove why price controls and government-run monopolies are completely backwards, then that person would be silenced.

China can be fine with you as long as you don't criticize the state.

[Symmetry]

Apparently, the difference is a matter of degree I guess. We also ostensibly have a free press, which helps to regulate the government in this regard (again ostensibly).

I'd agree with that, and I guess my point was that I don't think the West will become China as it is now. More that they'll push towards where we are now, and we'll push in their direction too. Say, for example, increasing control of media.

With the Manning case, and more widely Assange, we're pretty close to China already. It's increasingly clear that what Manning may have done was more embarrassing than harmful, and that a lot of the rhetoric is about the US not wanting to seem weak.

I really wouldn't go that far to say that. This Assange and Manning thing happens much more often in China and hardly anyone really knows about most of them. Occasionally, you'll hear about someone like Ai.

The courts in China are extremely corrupt, and if one were to criticize the government through his field of study in economics and prove why price controls and government-run monopolies are completely backwards, then that person would be silenced.

China can be fine with you as long as you don't criticize the state.

Yeah- I think I was going a bit far with that one. It's still a pretty disturbing case though. I guess I was throwing in a few other issues that have been bothering me over the way that we're treating this stuff. I find myself looking at an appalling story about China and realising that we're doing it too, but yes- on a much smaller scale.

Sorry- that's a vague reply, and I guess this is more of a worry of mine than anything concrete.

[Symmetry]

State Department Official Press Briefing

Not so different from China, except that the guy is too embarrassed to make eye contact, and the press are willing to push.

The excuses are the same.

[saxitoxin]

Woman Heckles Obama during Mega-Corporation Fundraiser Over Senator Obama's Orders for Manning's Torture

SAN FRANCISCO — President Barack Obama received a serenade Thursday — but not the kind he liked.

During a morning fundraiser at the St. Regis Hotel, a woman interrupted the president to say she had written a song for him. But the message she and her table mates had for the president wasn’t one of affection - they were there to protest the treatment of Army Pfc. Bradley Manning, accused by the U.S. military of handing over thousands of confidential government documents to WikiLeaks.

The protest Thursday was a particularly stark, in-your-face confrontation for the tightly controlled and largely affectionate world that a president inhabits, especially when going from one big-money fundraiser to another.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53546.html