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Europe in Crisis

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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby greenoaks on Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:30 pm

THE current mantra of the Australian government is that Europe has to fix its problems. Treasury secretary Martin Parkinson wants "clear and credible" commitments. Julia Gillard promised to deliver a tough message to leaders at the G20 summit in Cannes. Wayne Swan accused European leaders of "mucking around" and declared "the time for half measures is over".

The Australian government never gets into detail about how Europe should fix its problems. How much should German taxpayers pay to underwrite the sovereign debts of Italy, Greece and a whole lot of other countries that spent money they didn't have? If those bonds are salvaged, how do those countries get competitive without a massive currency devaluation - which can't occur in a common currency? What can be done to fix the underlying economies of these countries? The Australian government might think it is none of its business to tell the Europeans how to suck sovereign bonds, but if that were the case it would not be demanding action as often as it does in domestic speeches and press conferences.

Once upon a time we could have shared our experience at managing and eliminating public debt. We could have shared our experience on how to halt a ratings downgrade and restore a sovereign credit rating to triple-A. We could have shared our experience in breaking down restrictive work practices and exposing ossified industries to the new winds of competition.
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Usually economic problems build up over a long time. And the problems of Europe - excessive debt and low productivity - have been building for decades. There is even a word for it - "eurosclerosis". Back in the 1990s, the OECD recommended Europe look at some of the Australian reforms as a way of dealing with its problems. But it didn't, or at least most of it didn't. The consequences of long neglect are now coming home to roost.

Since then a funny thing happened in Australia. After Lehman Brothers collapsed in 2008, prime minister Kevin Rudd decided it showed how the liberal economic model - the model adopted in Australia - had failed. What the world needed, he said, was to be rescued by social democracy which required more state intervention and higher spending - spending that would require higher borrowing. There was a model for this kind of thing - it was Europe. Europe is the home of social democracy. Rudd thought that smaller government had been shown up as the poor competitor, and bigger government with its bigger borrowing program was the answer.

It's strange to think that the Australian government wanted to ape Europe just as it was sliding towards this crisis. No wonder it feels a little queasy about giving recommendations on how to turn things around.

If Australia cannot share any useful recent experience with Europe, where should the Europeans start looking? They are already looking to the countries that are cashed up with money that could be usefully ploughed into rescue funds for their banking system. And the biggest of them all is China. China is not just balancing its budget, it is accumulating money from economic growth into government-owned sovereign wealth funds. One of these funds is the China Investment Corporation (CIC) thought to have about $400 billion - five times the size of Australia's sovereign wealth fund.

CIC chairman Jin Liqun was asked recently if he would lend money into the European bailout. What he said was extraordinary: "If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries, this is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society. I think the labour laws are outdated. The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hard-working. The incentive system is totally out of whack."

Mr Jin is extremely well regarded as an economist. He is chairman of the International Forum of Sovereign Wealth Funds. And he represents a communist government. When you have communists complaining about socialism in Europe it is worth paying attention.

Is he wrong? I don't think so. Neither does the OECD. The Australian government will not give us the benefit of its views because its "Fair Work" labour laws are not focused on incentives any more than the European model.

Once upon a time the Chinese government would have had nothing to teach us about economic growth. But its track record is not looking so bad these days - not as bad as Europe, that's for sure.

Borrowers can't be choosers. If Europe wants a loan from China it will get an earful of advice with it.

Peter Costello was federal treasurer from 1996 to 2007.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:24 pm

It's easy for Australia to say that because they have total sovereignty over their own currency, and they have strong growth from China's playing with their resources.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Pedronicus on Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:48 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:It's easy for Australia to say that because they have total sovereignty over their own currency, and they have strong growth from China's playing with their resources.


That's not true. Lizards in London control their currency
(I'm fast thinking that idea isn't so wild anymore!)
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Postby 2dimes on Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:48 am

Hate to say but I'm pretty sure the "shape shifting reptilians" thing was put out there to make anyone that caught on to them lose credibility with the general public.

"What, your heard we control the currencies? I suppose you heard I'm a reptile too, you don't believe that malarky do you?" Mean while he steals your pension.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Commander9 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:52 am

](*,)
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby nietzsche on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:07 am

If the EU collapses, will a second trip to Europa cost me 1,000 usd?
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby greenoaks on Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:54 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:It's easy for Australia to say that because they have total sovereignty over their own currency, and they have strong growth from China's playing with their resources.

and because we have had decent governments the last 20 years which payed off our debt, opened our economy to competition by removing tariffs and attempted to run budget surpluses
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:49 pm

greenoaks wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:It's easy for Australia to say that because they have total sovereignty over their own currency, and they have strong growth from China's playing with their resources.

and because we have had decent governments the last 20 years which payed off our debt, opened our economy to competition by removing tariffs and attempted to run budget surpluses

Puuuurrrrrlease.

I love Australia like an older brother, but thats just a big ole pile of crap.

You're government could have been drooling idiots (and tbh sometimes they have been) and you guys would still be running surpluses.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:32 pm

greenoaks wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:It's easy for Australia to say that because they have total sovereignty over their own currency, and they have strong growth from China's playing with their resources.

and because we have had decent governments the last 20 years which payed off our debt, opened our economy to competition by removing tariffs and attempted to run budget surpluses


The ability of your governments to run surpluses was driven, in part, by their willingness to infantilize your country to the United States. In exchange for forfeiting a certain level of sovereignty you have been freed from the obligations of mounting a credible defense against Indonesia, an arrangement which led Australia to abandon its nuclear weapons programme in the '60s.

    In exchange for the periodic favour (e.g. unblinking diplomatic support for the occasional war, cooperating with U.S. Secret Police to destroy Australian citizens the U.S. doesn't like [e.g. Julian Assange], unquestioned hosting of as much NSA eavesdropping equipment as it pleases the U.S. to place in your country [equipment often used to monitor the Oz government and citizens itself]), you receive a safety net that allows you to spend money on butter rather than guns. This is in the best interest of your institutional political parties as it keeps the population content in their governments, fat and docile and happy to return them to power in elections.
New Zealand, on the other hand, has chosen to maintain independence in external affairs, even if it means they could be crushed like a gnat tomorrow.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Pedronicus on Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:54 pm

good luck NZ
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:48 pm

I wonder what would happen if someone invaded us...

Starbucks would probably end up funding our defense... (~25% of our export value comes from dairy products, of which powdered milk is the highest proportion of this)
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby notyou2 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:54 pm

If your government unleashed the secret suicide Kiwi's I expect the invaders would flee in disarray after many of them were blown to bits.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby greenoaks on Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:08 am

Lootifer wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:It's easy for Australia to say that because they have total sovereignty over their own currency, and they have strong growth from China's playing with their resources.

and because we have had decent governments the last 20 years which payed off our debt, opened our economy to competition by removing tariffs and attempted to run budget surpluses

Puuuurrrrrlease.

I love Australia like an older brother, but thats just a big ole pile of crap.

You're government could have been drooling idiots (and tbh sometimes they have been) and you guys would still be running surpluses.

most governments in most countries would have spent it. then when the good times ended they'd have massive debt and massive social obligations/expectations. ours did not which is very unusual for a western nation.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Pedronicus on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:47 am

This is a European crisis thread, not a thread for anyone from down under to brag about how good it is in Australia and how good the politicians are at saving money.

Please go and start a new thread and title it "I'm an Ausie and we've got lots of coal"
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Johnny Rockets on Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:44 pm

haters gonna hate...... :D

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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Lootifer on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:19 pm

Pedronicus wrote:This is a European crisis thread, not a thread for anyone from down under to brag about how good it is in Australia and how good the politicians are at saving money.

Please go and start a new thread and title it "I'm an Ausie and we've got lots of coal"

Hahaha, i lold. Bravo =D>
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:27 pm

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:54PM :-({|=

Swedish movie star Anita Ekberg says she is broke and has launched an urgent appeal for charity to donate funds to remodel her Italian villa so she can leave the convalescent center in which she's recuperating from a broken leg. She also needs to replace jewelry which was stolen during a break-in.

Mr Morais said: ‘She would dearly love to go home but the fact is she can’t as she does not have the money to restore the house where she lives which was damaged in the fire.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1hJx8MueE
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:32 pm

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:49PM

Bucking the US/UK/Australia line, Canada has vowed to save Europe. If it can't save Europe it will at least rescue Estonia and resettle it in Nunevut.

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty says Ottawa would be open to paying into a bailout fund for Europe.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201 ... ml?cmp=rss
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:39 pm

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:45PM

Portugal earned some much-needed cash this morning when they sold their national utilities to Three Gorges Corporation, a state company of the People's Republic of China. The PRC has indicated interest in purchasing the rest of Portugal as well.

Portugal is selling the state’s stake in national utility Energias de Portugal to China Three Gorges Corp. for €2.7 billion ($3.5 billion), officials said Thursday.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby notyou2 on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:45 pm

saxitoxin wrote:DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:54PM :-({|=

Swedish movie star Anita Ekberg says she is broke and has launched an urgent appeal for charity to donate funds to remodel her Italian villa so she can leave the convalescent center in which she's recuperating from a broken leg. She also needs to replace jewelry which was stolen during a break-in.

Mr Morais said: ‘She would dearly love to go home but the fact is she can’t as she does not have the money to restore the house where she lives which was damaged in the fire.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1hJx8MueE



Do you know where we can send donations?
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby greenoaks on Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:02 am

Pedronicus wrote:This is a European crisis thread, not a thread for anyone from down under to brag about how good it is in Australia and how good the politicians are at saving money.

Please go and start a new thread and title it "I'm an Ausie and we've got lots of coal"

who's bragging, i was being modest
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby Pedronicus on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:07 pm

greenoaks wrote:
Pedronicus wrote:This is a European crisis thread, not a thread for anyone from down under to brag about how good it is in Australia and how good the politicians are at saving money.

Please go and start a new thread and title it "I'm an Ausie and we've got lots of coal"

who's bragging, i was being modest


f*ck off and make you own Antipodean thread and leave us Europeans to read more doom and gloom from mr saxi pants.

thanks
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby greenoaks on Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:34 am

now where is the fun in that.

for all the dumbarses out there incapable of reading an opinion piece that long - China took a swipe at Europe for being too Socialist.
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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:46 pm

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:50PM :-({|=

The UK has a range of contingency plans to deal with the imminent collapse of the eurozone, RIA Novosti reveals. Depending on the degree of chaos that erupts across euro-currency nations, Britain has plans in place to seal its borders to prevent an expected flow of refugees from the continent, as well as use civil and military assets to airlift up to one million Britons who may find themselves stranded on the continent when the bank runs begin. Treasury agents would also use emergency control measures to prevent capital from leaving the country, including - what would be - increasingly valuable pounds sterling.

http://rt.com/news/uk-treasury-euro-failure-775/

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Re: Europe in Crisis

Postby barackattack on Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:48 am

Yo, Saxi.... what's all this contingency plan talk?

MFW when Saxi tries to scare people about the USA's contingency plan for its needing to use nuclear weapons against China.

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