ATTN: People Who Believe in Creation Myths

[Night Strike]

edit: But what comic boy said also applies. Who knows, maybe one can justify treating a small group of humans as something less than everyone else if it advances our culture far enough.

You mean kind of like how the Nazis treated Jews, gypsies, and gays?

[tkr4lf]

edit: But what comic boy said also applies. Who knows, maybe one can justify treating a small group of humans as something less than everyone else if it advances our culture far enough.

You mean kind of like how the Nazis treated Jews, gypsies, and gays?

Or like how the religious right treats gays?

[Night Strike]

edit: But what comic boy said also applies. Who knows, maybe one can justify treating a small group of humans as something less than everyone else if it advances our culture far enough.

You mean kind of like how the Nazis treated Jews, gypsies, and gays?

Or like how the religious right treats gays?

Christians don't want to kill gays simply for being gays. Nazis did. In fact, Christians don't even treat them as less human than everyone else. Christians just want the definition of marriage to stay as one man and one woman.

[tkr4lf]

edit: But what comic boy said also applies. Who knows, maybe one can justify treating a small group of humans as something less than everyone else if it advances our culture far enough.

You mean kind of like how the Nazis treated Jews, gypsies, and gays?

Or like how the religious right treats gays?

Christians don't want to kill gays simply for being gays. Nazis did. In fact, Christians don't even treat them as less human than everyone else. Christians just want the definition of marriage to stay as one man and one woman.

I didn't say they want to kill them (although there are some that do, you can't dispute that). I said they treat them like crap.

[Night Strike]

edit: But what comic boy said also applies. Who knows, maybe one can justify treating a small group of humans as something less than everyone else if it advances our culture far enough.

You mean kind of like how the Nazis treated Jews, gypsies, and gays?

Or like how the religious right treats gays?

Christians don't want to kill gays simply for being gays. Nazis did. In fact, Christians don't even treat them as less human than everyone else. Christians just want the definition of marriage to stay as one man and one woman.

I didn't say they want to kill them (although there are some that do, you can't dispute that). I said they treat them like crap.

Disagreeing with same sex marriage does not equal treating like crap. However, the vile things juan and medefe have said about Christians could definitely count as treating like crap and perhaps even bigotry.

[tkr4lf]

Disagreeing with same sex marriage does not equal treating like crap. However, the vile things juan and medefe have said about Christians could definitely count as treating like crap and perhaps even bigotry.

I'm not talking about gay marriage, I'm just talking about gay people. Most christians have one of two beliefs about gays. Either they (1) choose to be that way, or (2) they just are that way and choose to act upon those urges. Most christians that believe in (2) think that even though a person is born gay, they can and should choose to not act upon those urges.

Basically, they're asking gay people to live a miserable life just to appease their morals. Sure, a gay guy could completely abstain from any same-sex relationships, but how happy do you think that person is going to be? Everyone around him gets to be with somebody, have a loving relationship and have sex with the person they love. But not him. No sir! God made him a certain way and then wants him to deny himself his urges. That's not treating a group like crap? Asking them to give up any sort of relationship for their entire lives? Sounds pretty fucked up to me.

Sorry to take this off-topic. I shouldn't even have brought it up, because it will likely derail the topic. As for militant atheists disparaging your religion, well, I won't support it. I guess all I can do is ask that you (and others) make a distinction between the militant atheists and the regular atheists. We're not all the same, just like not all Christians are extremists.

[thegreekdog]

Disagreeing with creationists doesn't mean treating them like crap. I'm not sure what "vile" things have occurred in this thread, but it seems like a pretty good discussion (barring my sarcastic comments).

[Night Strike]

Disagreeing with creationists doesn't mean treating them like crap. I'm not sure what "vile" things have occurred in this thread, but it seems like a pretty good discussion (barring my sarcastic comments).

No, disagreeing with creationists doesn't mean that. But when juan posts stuff like they are idiots who should immediately be ignored, ostracized, and deducted 20 IQ points and medefe believes they should be treated as less human than others, then yes, it does move into the realm of vile and bigoted.

[thegreekdog]

Disagreeing with creationists doesn't mean treating them like crap. I'm not sure what "vile" things have occurred in this thread, but it seems like a pretty good discussion (barring my sarcastic comments).

No, disagreeing with creationists doesn't mean that. But when juan posts stuff like they are idiots who should immediately be ignored, ostracized, and deducted 20 IQ points and medefe believes they should be treated as less human than others, then yes, it does move into the realm of vile and bigoted.

I seem to remember some posts from some anti gay marriage folks that had rather similar language.

[Night Strike]

Disagreeing with same sex marriage does not equal treating like crap. However, the vile things juan and medefe have said about Christians could definitely count as treating like crap and perhaps even bigotry.

I'm not talking about gay marriage, I'm just talking about gay people. Most christians have one of two beliefs about gays. Either they (1) choose to be that way, or (2) they just are that way and choose to act upon those urges. Most christians that believe in (2) think that even though a person is born gay, they can and should choose to not act upon those urges.

Basically, they're asking gay people to live a miserable life just to appease their morals. Sure, a gay guy could completely abstain from any same-sex relationships, but how happy do you think that person is going to be? Everyone around him gets to be with somebody, have a loving relationship and have sex with the person they love. But not him. No sir! God made him a certain way and then wants him to deny himself his urges. That's not treating a group like crap? Asking them to give up any sort of relationship for their entire lives? Sounds pretty fucked up to me.

Sorry to take this off-topic. I shouldn't even have brought it up, because it will likely derail the topic. As for militant atheists disparaging your religion, well, I won't support it. I guess all I can do is ask that you (and others) make a distinction between the militant atheists and the regular atheists. We're not all the same, just like not all Christians are extremists.

Actually, Christianity teaches that everyone should deny their innate sin nature no matter what the situation. It says that ALL people should abstain from any kind of sexual activities outside of the marriage between one man and one woman. It says that all people should avoid other actions such as drunkenness, lying, cheating, stealing, and many other worldly desires. It's not just homosexual behavior that Christians call out as sinful.

[natty dread]

t says that ALL people should abstain from any kind of sexual activities outside of the marriage between one man and one woman.

That's just so messed up I don't even...

Ancient superstitions are not a good reason to oppress people based on their sexuality.

[Night Strike]

t says that ALL people should abstain from any kind of sexual activities outside of the marriage between one man and one woman.

That's just so messed up I don't even...

Ancient superstitions are not a good reason to oppress people based on their sexuality.

You should try to read the bible and you would be aware of it. And they aren't ancient superstitions nor is it oppressive to anybody.

[Lootifer]

Actually, Christianity teaches that everyone should deny their innate sin nature no matter what the situation. It says that ALL people should abstain from any kind of sexual activities outside of the marriage between one man and one woman. It says that all people should avoid other actions such as drunkenness, lying, cheating, stealing, and many other worldly desires. It's not just homosexual behavior that Christians call out as sinful.

And thats why most athiests call christians booooorrrrrrring!

No offense intended of course. You can hardly argue that dont you lie on the boring yet pure life and the rest of us sit on the exciting yet sinful life.

[pimpdave]

You should try to read the bible and you would be aware of it. And they aren't ancient superstitions nor is it oppressive to anybody.

See, that's just it. If you as a Christian choose to devote your own life to the guidance you think the Bible provides, that's great. But it really is actually oppressive for you to force those same ideals on other people in a pluralistic society. If you're going to love your neighbor as you love yourself, by all means feel free to share your opinion or ideas about your superstitions, but you shouldn't be mobilizing to make laws regarding sexuality. I don't expect you to ever grasp the grey areas of existence just like you're incapable of compromise, so of course I'm sure you'll find a way to get angry and call me a troll again or something,

How do you not realize that you're exactly like the Taliban?

[tkr4lf]

Actually, Christianity teaches that everyone should deny their innate sin nature no matter what the situation. It says that ALL people should abstain from any kind of sexual activities outside of the marriage between one man and one woman. It says that all people should avoid other actions such as drunkenness, lying, cheating, stealing, and many other worldly desires. It's not just homosexual behavior that Christians call out as sinful.

That still results in the same situation for the gays. If the only sexual relationships allowed are those between a married man and woman, then gay people don't get to have sex. I guess they could have sex with a woman that they married, but why would they want to? To them that's as disgusting as having sex with a man is to you. Which leads me to my next point...

t says that ALL people should abstain from any kind of sexual activities outside of the marriage between one man and one woman.

That's just so messed up I don't even...

Ancient superstitions are not a good reason to oppress people based on their sexuality.

You should try to read the bible and you would be aware of it. And they aren't ancient superstitions nor is it oppressive to anybody.

It is oppressive. It's oppressive to anybody who doesn't share the desire to be married to a woman. Sex is a basic human desire. To deny that to a group of people simply because they want to have a sexual relationship with a member of the same sex is oppressive.

And that's not even the only group it's oppressive to. How about polygamists? Not a great example, since even our government oppresses them, but still. What about people who are completely against marriage? People who have seen the devastating effects it can have, people who lived through bitter divorces and never want to subject themselves to that? They aren't allowed to have sex either?

Why would a god who loves us create us with all these urges and then tell us that we either deny ourselves the things we want the most, or we suffer for eternity? Either be miserable in this life (which we can say for a fact exists), or be miserable for your eternal afterlife (which may or may not exist). Does that seem like the kind of choice a loving father-figure would force upon his children?

[Night Strike]

Why would a god who loves us create us with all these urges and then tell us that we either deny ourselves the things we want the most, or we suffer for eternity? Either be miserable in this life (which we can say for a fact exists), or be miserable for your eternal afterlife (which may or may not exist). Does that seem like the kind of choice a loving father-figure would force upon his children?

Because we didn't originally have a sin nature and all our natural desires were good and allowed. We had one rule to follow: to not eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet Adam and Eve chose to disobey it. Because of that, all humans have fallen and been separated from God. What used to be good and was designed as pleasurable by God has been twisted into things that are harmful for people when not used in it proper way. Sex was designed to be enjoyed between the marriage of one man and one woman, and it's our sin nature that has led to all the problems we have today. A loving-father figure doesn't allow his children to just enjoy themselves in the present when he knows that what they're doing now will hurt them in the long run. That's why God's rules say to save sex for marriage: because that's where the joy and meaning of sex can be enjoyed and is protected. Same thing with sin in general: doing a sinful act now simply because its enjoyable doesn't mean it's better for you in the long run, whether that long run involves consequences later in life or eternal ones.

[natty dread]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

[Night Strike]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

[Haggis_McMutton]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

[thegreekdog]

You should try to read the bible and you would be aware of it. And they aren't ancient superstitions nor is it oppressive to anybody.

See, that's just it. If you as a Christian choose to devote your own life to the guidance you think the Bible provides, that's great. But it really is actually oppressive for you to force those same ideals on other people in a pluralistic society. If you're going to love your neighbor as you love yourself, by all means feel free to share your opinion or ideas about your superstitions, but you shouldn't be mobilizing to make laws regarding sexuality. I don't expect you to ever grasp the grey areas of existence just like you're incapable of compromise, so of course I'm sure you'll find a way to get angry and call me a troll again or something,

How do you not realize that you're exactly like the Taliban?

Night Strike - I'm Catholic (which, last I checked, was considered a Christian religion) and this is how I choose to live my life.

More importantly in the context of the U.S. government, the Constitution dictates that one's religion should not be imposed via law to enforce certain beliefs. By supporting the creation of a law that bans gay marriage, that's exactly what conservatives are doing. That's why it's the height of hypocrisy for conservatives to suggest a ban on gay marriage while at the same time railing against the no-longer-true requirement that Catholic Churches pay for contraceptives. And, by the way, it works the other way too for all you gay marriage fans out there.

[thegreekdog]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

Oh... that's disappointing. I thought my religious belief was based on something else. It's good of you to put us in our place though Haggis. Appreciated.

[natty dread]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

So, the truth doesn't really matter to you... You just "choose to believe" your religion because you can't handle the idea that there is no afterlife.

[Night Strike]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

I have no fear of death because I know that I will have eternal life after death on this earth. However, evolution by its definition teaches that your life is useless to everything except for natural selection of one set of genes over another. I choose to believe that my life does have a meaning and a purpose.

[Night Strike]

I don't know why people even try to reason with you NS... you seem to be so far gone there's no rescuing you from your indoctrination.

Let me just ask you this. Are you even capable of considering the possibility that your religion is actually false, and what the implications would be if so?

Yes, I have contemplated it. And it would be a pointless existence if we were simply here because evolution randomly decided that we would be here at this point and will then fade into nothingness when we die. I instead choose to believe that we were all created for a specific purpose.

So, the truth doesn't really matter to you... You just "choose to believe" your religion because you can't handle the idea that there is no afterlife.

The truth is everything to me, which is why I am a Christian. No other religion or set of beliefs on this earth is the truth. It's also why I stand up for the truth in other areas, such as politics.

[usernamer]

And here we have it, the basis of not only most(all?) religions but a shitload of other irrational beliefs as well.

Fear of death. Plain and simple.

Wow. I've stayed out of this and don't really plan on getting into a fight over anything, or even some debate, but I'm pretty sure religious people aren't scared of death / it's certainly not the basis of religion... tons of people are martyred each year because of their religion which causes their death, you can even go back and see deaths of like Jesus' disciples, they could've dropped the whole issue and got on with their life...

I recon religious ppl fear death less than most other ppl.