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Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:54 pm

thegreekdog wrote:In related news, it is common knowledge that the president has total control over the economy.

In the case of Reagan, two things happened. First, he got the benefit of some policies put in by Carter-- some policies regarding the Fed, etc (all of which he was loudly criticized for at the time, but which later politicians were happy to take credit for).

Second, he saw an upcoming economic boom. It was not about taxes, it was about tech, some things to do with interest rates overseas, etc. Seeing that boom, he thought he would gain some nice kudos by offering his big business cronies some nice benefits.. aka "trickle down". He was correct (make that his advisors were correct, but in a president.. amounts to the same thing) in that these cuts would be paid for by the phenomenal boom. Unfortunately, the rest of the story was forgotten.. i.e. that this works ONLY temporarily and that it was not really the taxes, it was changes in technology and other factors that really created the economic boom. The taxes just added to it, steered it a bit. BUT they also began the idea that its OK to give the big guys breaks and that it will all be "paid for later"... never mind that the little folks like us will be doing the paying! AND, yeah.. part of how he managed to balance that budget in his term was to steal our social security. (he called it borrowing money that was "just sitting", but part of our problem now is paying back the interest rate on that.
So, basically what Reagan himself did on the economic front was not all that bad at the time, it definitely set the stage for stupidity in the future, of which we are now paying for....

He also was in a good place to take advantage of the fall of the Soviet. The jury is out as to how much of it was truly due to Reagan, but such things are never fully due to one thing or another. If nothing else, he did not impede the demise of the USSR and for that deserves some credit. On the other hand, he pissed off a lot of people, particularly in the mideast. However, there, too, the blame cannot be rested on his shoulders alone by any means.

On the immigration front, several people here.. namely Phattscotty and Nightstrike, have things almost exactly backwards. You have to remember that Reagan's power base began in the west. Agriculture was still king in CA and Arizona, and a lot of that was very dependent upon illegal worker labor. His "genius"... though you have to rather read between the lines to get this from his fully public statements (He did speak more directly in venues that were semi-public, the type of meeting that nowadays would hit the internet in a few minutes, but that back then were largely kept out of public ears) was to know that other types of employers could "benefit" equally. At the time, the boom had created something of a labor shortage in the west, particularly (though not solely), so the outcry was not huge. Most people actually saw a benefit, except for the lowest wage workers who were mostly ignored. Even many of them largely did not begrudge someone else working hard and trying to get by.. at least at first.

THAT is why, a few years later there was an actual change in the law. To claim that "Reagan did it legally" and "Obama has not" is a rather disingenuous selective viewing of the facts. (Even aside from the FACT that it is the Supreme Court and not Phattscotty or NIghtstrike that gets to decide if something is constitutional or not)
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:58 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Yeah, technically Lincoln was a Democrat, not a modern Republican. The two parties switched during the 60s or whatever.

Only in some respects, mostly socially. At the time, there was no real "democractic" movement as we think of today, it was actually a matter of federal control versus state control, tinged with hints of monarchy and trade/industry/agriculture imbalances. The whole bit of slavery was thrown in sort of the way abortion and homosexuality are used today, to attract more people to "the cause".
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:17 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:In related news, it is common knowledge that the president has total control over the economy.

In the case of Reagan, two things happened. First, he got the benefit of some policies put in by Carter-- some policies regarding the Fed, etc (all of which he was loudly criticized for at the time, but which later politicians were happy to take credit for).

Second, he saw an upcoming economic boom. It was not about taxes, it was about tech, some things to do with interest rates overseas, etc. Seeing that boom, he thought he would gain some nice kudos by offering his big business cronies some nice benefits.. aka "trickle down". He was correct (make that his advisors were correct, but in a president.. amounts to the same thing) in that these cuts would be paid for by the phenomenal boom. Unfortunately, the rest of the story was forgotten.. i.e. that this works ONLY temporarily and that it was not really the taxes, it was changes in technology and other factors that really created the economic boom. The taxes just added to it, steered it a bit. BUT they also began the idea that its OK to give the big guys breaks and that it will all be "paid for later"... never mind that the little folks like us will be doing the paying! AND, yeah.. part of how he managed to balance that budget in his term was to steal our social security. (he called it borrowing money that was "just sitting", but part of our problem now is paying back the interest rate on that.
So, basically what Reagan himself did on the economic front was not all that bad at the time, it definitely set the stage for stupidity in the future, of which we are now paying for....

He also was in a good place to take advantage of the fall of the Soviet. The jury is out as to how much of it was truly due to Reagan, but such things are never fully due to one thing or another. If nothing else, he did not impede the demise of the USSR and for that deserves some credit. On the other hand, he pissed off a lot of people, particularly in the mideast. However, there, too, the blame cannot be rested on his shoulders alone by any means.

On the immigration front, several people here.. namely Phattscotty and Nightstrike, have things almost exactly backwards. You have to remember that Reagan's power base began in the west. Agriculture was still king in CA and Arizona, and a lot of that was very dependent upon illegal worker labor. His "genius"... though you have to rather read between the lines to get this from his fully public statements (He did speak more directly in venues that were semi-public, the type of meeting that nowadays would hit the internet in a few minutes, but that back then were largely kept out of public ears) was to know that other types of employers could "benefit" equally. At the time, the boom had created something of a labor shortage in the west, particularly (though not solely), so the outcry was not huge. Most people actually saw a benefit, except for the lowest wage workers who were mostly ignored. Even many of them largely did not begrudge someone else working hard and trying to get by.. at least at first.

THAT is why, a few years later there was an actual change in the law. To claim that "Reagan did it legally" and "Obama has not" is a rather disingenuous selective viewing of the facts. (Even aside from the FACT that it is the Supreme Court and not Phattscotty or NIghtstrike that gets to decide if something is constitutional or not)


I read as far as the lines "some policies regarding the Fed, etc." and "some things to do with interest rates, etc." and then I realized this speech was going to get into too much nitty-gritty detail and specifics for li'l ol' me.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:19 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Image

This man spent the 1940s in a submarine instead of a film studio.


You a fan of Carter?


I'm an opponent of personality cults (Reagan, Obama, Roosevelt, Mussolini, Atatürk, etc.).
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:27 pm

Woodruff wrote:
He certainly supported Big Business, no question. But I don't agree that he wans't interested in personal freedom. What did Reagan do that was anti-personal-freedom?

Missed this earlier, sorry.

He was no where near as bad as those that followed (including probably Obama, though Obama's full record is yet to be seen), but he heavily concentrated power into his office. I suspect you can delve into some of the truth better than I at this point (?).
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:28 pm

saxitoxin wrote:I read as far as the lines "some policies regarding the Fed, etc." and "some things to do with interest rates, etc." and then I realized this speech was going to get into too much nitty-gritty detail and specifics for li'l ol' me.

Sarcasm noted.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Symmetry on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:04 pm

thegreekdog wrote:In related news, it is common knowledge that the president has total control over the economy.


It doesn't matter who the president is, it's the former presidents fault, silly. Obama blames Bush, Bush blames Clinton, man hands on inhumanity unto man, and we have to end up blaming George Washington.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:06 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:In related news, it is common knowledge that the president has total control over the economy.


It doesn't matter who the president is, it's the former presidents fault, silly. Obama blames Bush, Bush blames Clinton, man hands on inhumanity unto man, and we have to end up blaming George Washington.


If he'da just accepted the kingship, we wouldn't have this crap, so it IS his fault!
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Symmetry on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:09 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:In related news, it is common knowledge that the president has total control over the economy.


It doesn't matter who the president is, it's the former presidents fault, silly. Obama blames Bush, Bush blames Clinton, man hands on inhumanity unto man, and we have to end up blaming George Washington.


If he'da just accepted the kingship, we wouldn't have this crap, so it IS his fault!


Totally, George III only got off on an insanity plea.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:24 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Image

This man spent the 1940s in a submarine instead of a film studio.


You a fan of Carter?


I'm an opponent of personality cults (Reagan, Obama, Roosevelt, Mussolini, Atatürk, etc.).


Well I was just a child, but my father has told me many times that the best time of his life was in the late 80's and that Ronald Reagan was great and that we was a special kind of president. My best friend's father says the same thing and gives even more credit to Reagan. On the other hand, my grandfather made sure to tell me before he passed away, the 3 greatest president's of all time. Thomas Jefferson, FDR, and Barack Obama. I respect my grandfather and father very equally, and that is to say tremendously. They are both extremely intelligent to the point I could not even describe, and both of them are hardcore Athiests and can prove their Atheism :lol:

So that is what I have been hearing all my life from those closest to me, and on my own, I think the less taxation the better off we are, so of course I have great respect for what Reagan was able to accomplish with a Democratic Congress. Not to mention he was the only president in recent memory not to be a member of an elitist secret society. He was closer to the people than most presidents and he earned his way into the heart of the people.

Plus he was hot.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:47 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Image

This man spent the 1940s in a submarine instead of a film studio.


You a fan of Carter?


I'm an opponent of personality cults (Reagan, Obama, Roosevelt, Mussolini, Atatürk, etc.).


Well I was just a child, but my father has told me many times that the best time of his life was in the late 80's and that Ronald Reagan was great and that we was a special kind of president. My best friend's father says the same thing and gives even more credit to Reagan. On the other hand, my grandfather made sure to tell me before he passed away, the 3 greatest president's of all time. Thomas Jefferson, FDR, and Barack Obama. I respect my grandfather and father very equally, and that is to say tremendously. They are both extremely intelligent to the point I could not even describe, and both of them are hardcore Athiests and can prove their Atheism :lol:

So that is what I have been hearing all my life from those closest to me, and on my own, I think the less taxation the better off we are, so of course I have great respect for what Reagan was able to accomplish with a Democratic Congress. Not to mention he was the only president in recent memory not to be a member of an elitist secret society. He was closer to the people than most presidents and he earned his way into the heart of the people.

Plus he was hot.
Image


I'll agree that Ronald Reagan was hot, so much so that I got a semi when you posted that picture.

You started to veer back into UFO/Bigfoot territory with the "elitist secret society" line, though. Besides, IIRC, Reagan was a TEKE.

As for being "closer to the people than most presidents" I will take your word for this as it's a statement of emotion that may be different for different people.

Just looking at his life story, however, there are very few moments that - IMO - would have put him close to the people. Most men of his generation saw combat overseas. He did not. Few men of his generation were a critically acclaimed Hollywood star. He was. That said, no one should be second-guessed for their personal achievements.

But, it's dangerous to have an emotional attachment to someone we haven't met (especially talented character actors). This is kind of the definition of a personality cult.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:58 pm



That's among many places I'd disagree with Reagan. I don't think either the millionaire or the bus driver should be paying anything at all in taxes.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:50 am

saxitoxin wrote:

That's among many places I'd disagree with Reagan. I don't think either the millionaire or the bus driver should be paying anything at all in taxes.


Yeah, but how are we gonna have ROADS????
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:34 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Yeah, but how are we gonna have ROADS????

Don't need them... we can all just use our jet packs and air cars. :P
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:18 pm

no roads = no bus drivers

why do you hate bus drivers?

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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Lootifer on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:23 pm

Hahaha, if I made the same post you would call me a troll and put me on your foe list [again]....
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:39 pm

Lootifer wrote:Hahaha, if I made the same post you would call me a troll and put me on your foe list [again]....


No I wouldn't
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Lootifer on Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:45 pm

Whatever you say big fella.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:31 pm

Lootifer wrote:Whatever you say big fella.


He'd just tell you he did, and then continue to read your posts and continue to call you a troll. Then you'd get in trouble for calling him a troll for doing it.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:07 am

Woodruff wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Whatever you say big fella.


He'd just tell you he did, and then continue to read your posts and continue to call you a troll. Then you'd get in trouble for calling him a troll for doing it.


You can only get into trouble for being a troll if you are in fact a troll.

ZING!
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:21 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Whatever you say big fella.


He'd just tell you he did, and then continue to read your posts and continue to call you a troll. Then you'd get in trouble for calling him a troll for doing it.


You can only get into trouble for being a troll if you are in fact a troll.

ZING!


Apparently not, as you're still around.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:32 am

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Whatever you say big fella.


He'd just tell you he did, and then continue to read your posts and continue to call you a troll. Then you'd get in trouble for calling him a troll for doing it.


You can only get into trouble for being a troll if you are in fact a troll.

ZING!


Apparently not, as you're still around.


And...what did you get into trouble for????? (trolling) What did the mods officially state I was not doing, numerous times? (not trolling)

Understand what a troll is, and your constant rambling about trolling and who is and who isn't will cease, not to mention a moment of clarity regarding yourself. All it does is derail and ruin threads.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:33 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Whatever you say big fella.


He'd just tell you he did, and then continue to read your posts and continue to call you a troll. Then you'd get in trouble for calling him a troll for doing it.


You can only get into trouble for being a troll if you are in fact a troll.

ZING!


Apparently not, as you're still around.


And...what did you get into trouble for????? (trolling) What did the mods officially state I was not doing, numerous times? (not trolling)
Understand what a troll is, and your constant rambling about trolling and who is and who isn't will cease, not to mention a moment of clarity regarding yourself. All it does is derail and ruin threads.


You make the claim of people trolling far more often than I do, Phatscotty. In fact, I outlined that in a post recently. So you should try to avoid that line of discussion, really. Just because you've got the moderators in your hip pocket at the moment doesn't mean it will last. It has much more to do with my vocality regarding criticism of the moderators than anything else. They don't like that, so I am a target. You aren't vocal about criticizing the moderators, so they don't mind keeping you around.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:06 am

I made no such claim. I wasn't talking about any other people doing anything more or less than you, or talking about any other people at all.

I don't have anyone in my pocket.....I just respect the rules of the community (for the community) and refrain from trolling.
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Re: Ronald Reagan's Uniting Principles

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:45 am

Phatscotty wrote:I made no such claim.


You have made no claim of others being trolls?!?!?!
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