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Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

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Re: Mr nate

Postby bryguy on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:27 pm

red bull wrote:
satanspaladin wrote:Mr Nate I will keep reading the bible I may even get to like it .

I think I've heard it called the greatest story ever told ?.

And yes god was merciful to Adam & eve but i still don't understand why
God would need to lie to them in the first place ?

Is lying not a sin :?
could i ask where he lied to them please ? :)


he never lied to them, and the Bible is NOT to be taken literally, it gives examples (for the stuff like Garden of Eden, Tower of Babel, Great Flood etc.) the Garden of Eden is an example that the fruit on the tree is sin, the snake is Satan, and Eden is earth without sin, perfect
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Re: Mr nate

Postby vtmarik on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:29 pm

bryguy wrote:
red bull wrote:
satanspaladin wrote:Mr Nate I will keep reading the bible I may even get to like it .

I think I've heard it called the greatest story ever told ?.

And yes god was merciful to Adam & eve but i still don't understand why
God would need to lie to them in the first place ?

Is lying not a sin :?
could i ask where he lied to them please ? :)


he never lied to them, and the Bible is NOT to be taken literally, it gives examples (for the stuff like Garden of Eden, Tower of Babel, Great Flood etc.) the Garden of Eden is an example that the fruit on the tree is sin, the snake is Satan, and Eden is earth without sin, perfect


I'd like to point out that the idea that the snake is Satan was an invention of St. Augustine and is not supported by the Bible.

And I believe the action of disobeying God is sin, but is nullified by the fact that God knew it was going to happen.
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Re: Mr nate

Postby bryguy on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:32 pm

vtmarik wrote:
bryguy wrote:
red bull wrote:
satanspaladin wrote:Mr Nate I will keep reading the bible I may even get to like it .

I think I've heard it called the greatest story ever told ?.

And yes god was merciful to Adam & eve but i still don't understand why
God would need to lie to them in the first place ?

Is lying not a sin :?
could i ask where he lied to them please ? :)


he never lied to them, and the Bible is NOT to be taken literally, it gives examples (for the stuff like Garden of Eden, Tower of Babel, Great Flood etc.) the Garden of Eden is an example that the fruit on the tree is sin, the snake is Satan, and Eden is earth without sin, perfect


I'd like to point out that the idea that the snake is Satan was an invention of St. Augustine and is not supported by the Bible.

And I believe the action of disobeying God is sin, but is nullified by the fact that God knew it was going to happen.


it is an example for that, and it was first done by MOSES, the writer of genesis, where that is found.


it is only sin if u disobey God by doing bad things, but usually, if your holy, u will do what God wants u to
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Re: Mr nate

Postby vtmarik on Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:37 pm

bryguy wrote:it is only sin if u disobey God by doing bad things, but usually, if your holy, u will do what God wants u to


Need I bring up the Catholic Priest scandal?

The only thing being 'holy' does for you is give your goofy ideas a hint of credibility and a greater advantage when it comes to explaining away your wrongdoings. If a person is 'holy' enough, they could kill a man for no reason and get away with it.
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Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:13 pm

MR. Nate wrote:Because we still freely choose! We still make the choice ourselves! I hear what your saying about choices leading one to the other, but we can ALWAYS make a different choice.

There are three doors. You choose the one on the left, and it opens. Does whether or not the other two doors are locked make a difference?

If god knows which one we are going to pick the other two aren't even there, they are Trompe-l'œils good enough to fool us and nothing more, there isn't even a chance that we might try to enter either of them if god knows we're going to go for the door on the left.
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Re: Mr nate

Postby bryguy on Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:17 pm

vtmarik wrote:
bryguy wrote:it is only sin if u disobey God by doing bad things, but usually, if your holy, u will do what God wants u to


Need I bring up the Catholic Priest scandal?

The only thing being 'holy' does for you is give your goofy ideas a hint of credibility and a greater advantage when it comes to explaining away your wrongdoings. If a person is 'holy' enough, they could kill a man for no reason and get away with it.


that is not true, if u were holy u would never even kill a spider.
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Re: Mr nate

Postby got tonkaed on Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:19 pm

bryguy wrote:
vtmarik wrote:
bryguy wrote:it is only sin if u disobey God by doing bad things, but usually, if your holy, u will do what God wants u to


Need I bring up the Catholic Priest scandal?

The only thing being 'holy' does for you is give your goofy ideas a hint of credibility and a greater advantage when it comes to explaining away your wrongdoings. If a person is 'holy' enough, they could kill a man for no reason and get away with it.


that is not true, if u were holy u would never even kill a spider.


this is more of your own personal definition of holy than what is typically percieved as holyness. Also, its quite likely you drive a car, therefore should you drive it on a highway you are willingly commiting insect genocide.

very few of us are jainist monks.
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Postby bryguy on Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:20 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
MR. Nate wrote:Because we still freely choose! We still make the choice ourselves! I hear what your saying about choices leading one to the other, but we can ALWAYS make a different choice.

There are three doors. You choose the one on the left, and it opens. Does whether or not the other two doors are locked make a difference?

If god knows which one we are going to pick the other two aren't even there, they are Trompe-l'œils good enough to fool us and nothing more, there isn't even a chance that we might try to enter either of them if god knows we're going to go for the door on the left.



God does not know, for the future has million of possibilities. but he does no what all those possibilitties are (i am bad at spelling)

here are some that could happen in that situation

1. u could choose the door on the left
2.the middle one
3. the one on the right
4. u could turn back
5. someone could enter the room and tell u this is a dream
6. someone could enter the room and give u some candy
7. u could open each door then turn back
8. u could close your eyes and do eenie meenie mynie moe and then choose.

hehe lots of different things could happen
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Postby Backglass on Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:31 pm

bryguy wrote:God does not know, for the future has million of possibilities. but he does no what all those possibilitties are.


Not according to jay & nate. Their magical gods already know what you will do and already know how your life will turn out.

bryguy wrote:(i am bad at spelling)


Yes you are.
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Postby CoffeeCream on Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:31 pm

Ambrose, I am reading the first chapter of Genesis & John (since others here recommended that book as far as Old Testament). I see what you're saying now about Jesus being God. Mind you now, it's The Message version I'm reading. I bolded the parts which I thought were interesting.

Here's the passage - John 1:

He was in the world, the world was there through him, and yet the world didn't even notice. He came to his own people,
but they didn't want him. But whoever did want him, who believed he was who he claimed and would do what he said, He made to be their true selves, their child-of-God selves.

The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood. We saw the glory with our own eyes, the one-of-a-kind glory, like Father, like Son, Generous inside and out, true from start to finish. John pointed him out and called, "This is the One! The One I told you was coming after me but in fact was ahead of me. He has always been ahead of me, has always had the first word." We all live off his generous bounty, gift after gift after gift. We got the basics from Moses, and then this exuberant giving and receiving, This endless knowing and understanding—all this came through Jesus, the Messiah. No one has ever seen God, not so much as a glimpse. This one-of-a-kind God-Expression, who exists at the very heart of the Father,
has made him plain as day.

The very next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and yelled out, "Here he is, God's Passover Lamb! He forgives the sins of the world! This is the man I've been talking about, 'the One who comes after me but is really ahead of me.' I knew nothing about who he was—only this: that my task has been to get Israel ready to recognize him as the God-Revealer. That is why I came here baptizing with water, giving you a good bath and scrubbing sins from your life so you can get a fresh start with God."

'The One on whom you see the Spirit come down and stay, this One will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' That's exactly what I saw happen, and I'm telling you, there's no question about it: This is the Son of God."

The next day John was back at his post with two disciples, who were watching. He looked up, saw Jesus walking nearby, and said, "Here he is, God's Passover Lamb."

Later on...

The first thing he did after finding where Jesus lived was find his own brother, Simon, telling him, "We've found the Messiah" (that is, "Christ"). He immediately led him to Jesus.

Nathanael exclaimed, "Rabbi! You are the Son of God, the King of Israel!" Jesus said, "You've become a believer simply because I say I saw you one day sitting under the fig tree? You haven't seen anything yet! Before this is over you're going to see heaven open and God's angels descending to the Son of Man and ascending again."

I still have to question how Jesus could be both God & the Son of God at the same time. I don't understand everything there, especially when he's called "Passover Lamb". I do know what the passover was to the Jews. Why would they tie Jesus in to the passover ritual? Whenever you or the other Freaks have time. :D
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Postby THORNHEART on Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:16 pm

lol if god wanted the bible to be taken symbolicly then why did he tell us that?

if god is really an all powerful god creator the the in the world would he need to create the world in seven stages?lol


he created the world in 7 days because he had a unique plan for the world.
six days of work in which man worked for himself and 1 day of rest in which man worshipped god...its so simple and clear that i cant understand why people want to make it complicated and find hidden meanings and stuff
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Postby Wisse on Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:19 pm

MR. Nate wrote:
Wisse wrote:not sure if this is asked already but i always had one question that i didn't understand

why does the bible nearly only go about humands, why not other beasts etc. you would think they could have a chance too, but i never saw a rabbit or what ever beast do kind of things we do. i don't believe in god but i have respect in the people who do.
(i hope i didn't wrote something wrong there)


Animals don't have souls, so they don't have the need to be saved.

animals no souls? i think thats wrong :?
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Postby unriggable on Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:57 pm

Backglass wrote:
bryguy wrote:God does not know, for the future has million of possibilities. but he does no what all those possibilitties are.


Not according to jay & nate. Their magical gods already know what you will do and already know how your life will turn out.


So keep praying, maybe the future will be different.
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Postby Backglass on Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:57 pm

unriggable wrote:
Backglass wrote:
bryguy wrote:God does not know, for the future has million of possibilities. but he does no what all those possibilitties are.


Not according to jay & nate. Their magical gods already know what you will do and already know how your life will turn out.


So keep praying, maybe the future will be different.


:lol: No thanks. I am ritual and superstition free.

It's quite nice actually. ;)
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:05 pm

CoffeeCream wrote:I still have to question how Jesus could be both God & the Son of God at the same time. I don't understand everything there, especially when he's called "Passover Lamb". I do know what the passover was to the Jews. Why would they tie Jesus in to the passover ritual? Whenever you or the other Freaks have time.


How Jesus can be God and the Son of God at the same time is what we Catholics call "a mystery". Meaning it is something we know, but don't understand. This is perfectly fine so far as faith goes - when we're talking about a supernatural being, the word is enough - BEYOND natural.

As to the semantics of it, it makes sense. We believe that Jesus was conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT, and since the holy spirit is also God, Jesus was conceived by God, making him the son of God.

He's called "a lamb" because he is a sacrifice for humanity, and lambs were typically sacrificed in the OT Jewish ceremonies. I'm not personally familiar with passover, so I can't be more specific than that, though I don't doubt there's someone here who can be.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:21 pm

CoffeeCream wrote:I still have to question how Jesus could be both God & the Son of God at the same time. I don't understand everything there, especially when he's called "Passover Lamb". I do know what the passover was to the Jews. Why would they tie Jesus in to the passover ritual? Whenever you or the other Freaks have time.


Hi CoffeeCream,

It's hard to talk about God's relationship with Christ without going into the HolyTrinity. I tend to think of it like this. Most of us see ourselves in three parts. In martial arts we have the motto "Strong mind, strong body, strong spirit". We are made in God's image, and therefore he has the same division. The spiritual/ emotional - Holy Spirit, The bodily representation - Christ, and the rational/ creator- God. They are all separate, and all still the same; in the way that your body, mind and spirit are all still you.

Atonement for our sins used to be attained through sacrificing a goat, lamb or other animal to God. Our term Scapegoat, I believe, comes from this. Christ came to earth and offered himself up to be slaughtered for us, and in so doing made it unnecessary to make those sacrifices anymore. We no longer need to pay for our sins because he has paid for them.
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Postby silvanricky on Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:31 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:We are mad in God's image and therefore he has the same division.


I would be happy myself if I was in God's image. :lol:

Just kidding around.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:33 pm

silvanricky wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:We are mad in God's image and therefore he has the same division.


I would be happy myself if I was in God's image. :lol:

Just kidding around.


:lol: ya' caught me, thanks. :lol:
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Postby MR. Nate on Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:57 pm

MeDeFe wrote:If god knows which one we are going to pick the other two aren't even there, they are Trompe-l'œils good enough to fool us and nothing more, there isn't even a chance that we might try to enter either of them if god knows we're going to go for the door on the left.
And yet, we still freely choose the door. We still have to make the choice to walk over to it. turn the knob, and open it. We will, but we still have to choose it.

bryguy wrote:God does not know, for the future has million of possibilities. but he does no what all those possibilitties are
If he does not know, he is not omniscient, and therefore not God.

Wisse wrote:animals no souls? i think thats wrong :?
Why? Have you discussed philosophy with your dog lately? Do they suddenly have the ability to grasp abstract thought? It seems clear to me that there is something fundamentally different between animals and humans, so the absence of a soul in animals does not seem strange at all.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:58 pm

CoffeeCream -

I came across a chunk of time for a few hours, and I was going to answer the questions you had a few days back, but it seems like my friends here have done the answering for me, aside from the quick answer I made a couple of hours ago in regards to the blessed trinity.

If there's something that hasn't been answered while I was away, I'm all ears. :)

A word on TV evangelists though - BEWARE! I read something you posted a ways back about watching preachers on TV. Keep in mind that a good chunk of them do what they do for money, and you really want to be careful in how you expose yourself to "Christianity" (if you can call it that in the case of TV evangelists). If you're honestly interested, a local church would probably be far more "real".
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:17 pm

(CoffeeCream: I have two posts on the previous page, one answering your question on the blessed trinity. Just wanted to make sure you don't miss it in the page-change :) )

CoffeeCream wrote:CrazyAnglican & OnlyAmbrose,

I finally decided that I would at least give reading the Bible a try. I get a pretty nice discount on any book I want where I work at so I decided to get what is called "The Message". It says that it is not actually scripture but rather a version using today's English. Since I already have a copy of the Bible I will match both up to see how it compares to the actual scriptures.

Any suggestions on a particular book? If not I am going to start at the very beginning in Genesis. I was thinking of reading a chapter a day from Genesis and then maybe reading a chapter of the first book of the New Testament. That's the thing though, how do you study the Bible?


Just came across this post. "The Message" is very popular on those new in studying the Bible because it's really easy to read. Once you're comfortable, I'd move along to one of the more mainstream translations because they're far more accurate to the real text. The Message is good at what it's title is though - getting the message across ;)

Anywho, if you do get a "real Bible" (as it were), I'd go with the New American Bible or the New International Version. The KJV is just impossible to read :?

As to book, the Gospels are definitely good (Matthew Mark Luke and John), Matthew and John being my favorites.

And mind what I said about TV evangelists! ;)
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Postby got tonkaed on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:19 pm

fwiw, i always was told that for people who are interested in looking at the christian message a good place to start was with john, and then to read the rest of the gospels.
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Postby CoffeeCream on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:19 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:A word on TV evangelists though - BEWARE! I read something you posted a ways back about watching preachers on TV. Keep in mind that a good chunk of them do what they do for money, and you really want to be careful in how you expose yourself to "Christianity" (if you can call it that in the case of TV evangelists). If you're honestly interested, a local church would probably be far more "real".


I heard this guy named Charles Stanley on the tv awhile back. He is the guy that started to get me thinking more seriously about the afterlife and Christ. He made this one statement that I haven't forgotten.

"This world can give you happiness but it can't provide joy"

As soon as he said that I was like "Yeah Exactly!". I've tried to obtain joy through a lot of stuff but it's only temporary. The way Stanley explained it, that's like trying to capture the wind. In other words it will never happen. A lot of what he said made sense to me and I listen from time to time. I don't understand some of the stuff he says but I give him credit for being genuine.

Reading Genesis 2 & John 2 today. :o
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Postby radiojake on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:39 pm

OK I have one challenge for the faithful

Prove God without using the Bible

Impossible
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Postby got tonkaed on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:40 pm

radiojake wrote:OK I have one challenge for the faithful

Prove God without using the Bible

Impossible


i think you probably could attempt to prove some type of non christian God without the bible.

Whether or not you can prove the existence of any supernatural being is still rather debatable at the moment.
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