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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:16 am

Neutrino wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:This means then, given time, both Einstein and the guys behind Quantum Mechanics will look positively barbaric in their "crude understanding" of science when someone proves them wrong. Logically, this must go on Ad Infinatum.

Theromdynamics? Last I checked, no theory has derailed this one. Conservation of Momentum and Laws of Motion; last I heard, the saying that "to every action, there is an opposide and equal reaction" still applies to macroscopic objects (but not objects on the sub-atomic scale, Quantum Mechanics and Heisenburg Principle for those).

The facts about Newton's Laws:

1. If I'm driving a car at 35 mph and I hit head-on with another car travelling at the same speed, what will happen?

2. If I'm in a plane travelling 1000 mph and it comes to a cold stop in less than one minute, what will happen to me?

3. If I'm in space (in a suit, mind you) and I grab a passing satellite that is travelling at many thousands of miles per minute, what will happen?

Answers:

1. the force of inertia, as dictated in the Newtonian laws of motion, will result in a 70mph collision. Which, needless to say, is most probably not very good to both drivers.

2. At the very least, I'm not very comfortable with the negative Gs.

3. Two words: Chunky Salsa*.

(*In an atmosphere, it woud make a *RIP-SQUISH!!!* noise. But since sound cannot travel through a vacuum, I wouldn't even die with the dignity of a cool sounding Special-FX.)

I rest my case.


I was actually referring to his law of Gravity. The rest of them are fine (as far as we know).

But yes, eventually all modern theories will seem pathetically simple. The fact that we need two different sets of laws for things on different scales, for example.

It goes way past 'Not comfortable". 164 odd gees is entirely non-survivable for even tiny fractions of a second :lol:


I kind of figured that a lot of negative G's wouldn't be very kind, at least not without a G-suit.

And so far, macroscopic object follow the Laws of Physics (all of them) whereas Quantum scale operates under physical theories. I believe that the difference in nomclature is rather striking: one is called "law, the other "theory". If niether are "facts", well fine as it is probably more correct. But one is obviously more concrete, as dictated by the terminalogy used and the definitions of said terms. This is all I'm getting at.
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Postby Neoteny on Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:55 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Neutrino wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:This means then, given time, both Einstein and the guys behind Quantum Mechanics will look positively barbaric in their "crude understanding" of science when someone proves them wrong. Logically, this must go on Ad Infinatum.

Theromdynamics? Last I checked, no theory has derailed this one. Conservation of Momentum and Laws of Motion; last I heard, the saying that "to every action, there is an opposide and equal reaction" still applies to macroscopic objects (but not objects on the sub-atomic scale, Quantum Mechanics and Heisenburg Principle for those).

The facts about Newton's Laws:

1. If I'm driving a car at 35 mph and I hit head-on with another car travelling at the same speed, what will happen?

2. If I'm in a plane travelling 1000 mph and it comes to a cold stop in less than one minute, what will happen to me?

3. If I'm in space (in a suit, mind you) and I grab a passing satellite that is travelling at many thousands of miles per minute, what will happen?

Answers:

1. the force of inertia, as dictated in the Newtonian laws of motion, will result in a 70mph collision. Which, needless to say, is most probably not very good to both drivers.

2. At the very least, I'm not very comfortable with the negative Gs.

3. Two words: Chunky Salsa*.

(*In an atmosphere, it woud make a *RIP-SQUISH!!!* noise. But since sound cannot travel through a vacuum, I wouldn't even die with the dignity of a cool sounding Special-FX.)

I rest my case.


I was actually referring to his law of Gravity. The rest of them are fine (as far as we know).

But yes, eventually all modern theories will seem pathetically simple. The fact that we need two different sets of laws for things on different scales, for example.

It goes way past 'Not comfortable". 164 odd gees is entirely non-survivable for even tiny fractions of a second :lol:


I kind of figured that a lot of negative G's wouldn't be very kind, at least not without a G-suit.

And so far, macroscopic object follow the Laws of Physics (all of them) whereas Quantum scale operates under physical theories. I believe that the difference in nomclature is rather striking: one is called "law, the other "theory". If niether are "facts", well fine as it is probably more correct. But one is obviously more concrete, as dictated by the terminalogy used and the definitions of said terms. This is all I'm getting at.


A law will be more concrete mathematically, but you're implying that a theory can't carry the same weight in fact, which is not necessarily the case, and that, because it isn't as concrete, this somehow weakens its usefulness. I'm not sure why you were trying to get at what you were getting at, but without theory, science is impotent. Ruling theory out as less important than law eliminates 90%+ of the scientific endeavor. I don't know if those implications I received are what you intended, but I can't get any other valid reasoning for your first post than that.
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Postby Neutrino on Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:10 am

Really the only difference between a "law" and a "theory" is that "laws" lack serious opposition. Evolution has probably been fleshed out enough to be law-worthy, but it is held back by the thousands of fundamentalist groups that would have heart attacks if the terminology was changed.
No-one's religious sensibilities are harmed by Newton's Laws of Motion and there is no alternative system that can give just as accurate results in play. Therefore most of Newton's theories get upgraded to "laws".

Laws are no more trustworthy than a theory. In fact, I can guarantee right now that all current physical laws are wrong. Not by very much, but they are still wrong.
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Postby Neoteny on Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:15 am

Neutrino wrote:Really the only difference between a "law" and a "theory" is that "laws" lack serious opposition. Evolution has probably been fleshed out enough to be law-worthy, but it is held back by the thousands of fundamentalist groups that would have heart attacks if the terminology was changed.
No-one's religious sensibilities are harmed by Newton's Laws of Motion and there is no alternative system that can give just as accurate results in play. Therefore most of Newton's theories get upgraded to "laws".

Laws are no more trustworthy than a theory. In fact, I can guarantee right now that all current physical laws are wrong. Not by very much, but they are still wrong.


I'm not sure it would quite be law status even if more widely accepted. Most good laws have those constants in there. Who knows.
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Postby unriggable on Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:12 pm

Would gravity even be a law? Couldn't it be countered with 'Intelligent Falling'?
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Postby MeDeFe on Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:15 pm

unriggable wrote:Would gravity even be a law? Couldn't it be countered with 'Intelligent Falling'?

Don't go hijacking my ideas!

MeDeFe wrote:Gravity is just a theory. It only exists because we have faith in it, if we didn't it would get bored and leave.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:15 am

Neutrino wrote:Really the only difference between a "law" and a "theory" is that "laws" lack serious opposition. Evolution has probably been fleshed out enough to be law-worthy, but it is held back by the thousands of fundamentalist groups that would have heart attacks if the terminology was changed.
No-one's religious sensibilities are harmed by Newton's Laws of Motion and there is no alternative system that can give just as accurate results in play. Therefore most of Newton's theories get upgraded to "laws".

Laws are no more trustworthy than a theory. In fact, I can guarantee right now that all current physical laws are wrong. Not by very much, but they are still wrong.


Theories must have competing theories. And since you're of the mind that Intelligent Design isn't scientific at all, then it can't seriously be considered a competing theory. Therefore, there must be a competing theory to Evolution. Religious "sensibilities" don't enter into it; it's a theory because it does not have the provablility of a law.

One is more concrete and has no competition, the other isn't.

The nomaclature is what it is for a reason.
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Postby Neutrino on Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:45 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Neutrino wrote:Really the only difference between a "law" and a "theory" is that "laws" lack serious opposition. Evolution has probably been fleshed out enough to be law-worthy, but it is held back by the thousands of fundamentalist groups that would have heart attacks if the terminology was changed.
No-one's religious sensibilities are harmed by Newton's Laws of Motion and there is no alternative system that can give just as accurate results in play. Therefore most of Newton's theories get upgraded to "laws".

Laws are no more trustworthy than a theory. In fact, I can guarantee right now that all current physical laws are wrong. Not by very much, but they are still wrong.


Theories must have competing theories. And since you're of the mind that Intelligent Design isn't scientific at all, then it can't seriously be considered a competing theory. Therefore, there must be a competing theory to Evolution. Religious "sensibilities" don't enter into it; it's a theory because it does not have the provablility of a law.

One is more concrete and has no competition, the other isn't.

The nomaclature is what it is for a reason.


Intelligent Design is actually a pretty decent theory; the reason it is utterly discarded as a scientific theory is that it is merely a front to get Creationism back in schools.

As far as I know, there are no scientific alternatives to Evolution. Intellegent Design doesn't and can't make any predictions and Creationism doesn't count. Evolution has a set ofd rules with which to make predictions (admittedly most of these rules are circumstantial and the predictions won't be testable for quite a while...) and has quite a fleshed-out theory. What is holding Evolution back from full Law-dom, then?
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Postby Balsiefen on Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:04 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Neutrino wrote:Really the only difference between a "law" and a "theory" is that "laws" lack serious opposition. Evolution has probably been fleshed out enough to be law-worthy, but it is held back by the thousands of fundamentalist groups that would have heart attacks if the terminology was changed.
No-one's religious sensibilities are harmed by Newton's Laws of Motion and there is no alternative system that can give just as accurate results in play. Therefore most of Newton's theories get upgraded to "laws".

Laws are no more trustworthy than a theory. In fact, I can guarantee right now that all current physical laws are wrong. Not by very much, but they are still wrong.


Theories must have competing theories. And since you're of the mind that Intelligent Design isn't scientific at all, then it can't seriously be considered a competing theory. Therefore, there must be a competing theory to Evolution. Religious "sensibilities" don't enter into it; it's a theory because it does not have the provablility of a law.

One is more concrete and has no competition, the other isn't.

The nomaclature is what it is for a reason.


You seem to have a very mixed up idea of what a theory is. I have not heard of Neutrino's definition of theorys and laws before and to me it leaves far too much grey aria (evolution being a perfect example, it should by those definitions be a law)

People are in the mind that a theory is a weak thing that no-one is quite sure if it is true. This is mainly because scientinsts, when they come up with an idea say " I have a theory" no they dont, they have a hypothosys, it may take almost a hundred years ofchecking and defending before it becomes somthing as respected as a theory. That is why the theory of Evolution should not be compared to wild, stab in the dark teorys such as inteligent design.

There are many theories which are entirely accepted by people who will refuse evolution. From Sol's place in the milky way to sub atomic physics that produced the atom bomb to Ohms law and the electrical enargy grid.
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Postby Neoteny on Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:45 pm

I would disagree with both of your points on this one just based on word usage.

Neutrino: intelligent design is not a decent theory because it has not, and cannot, be empirically tested. The closest we've come to that is the great prayer experiment from a few years ago. And no IDist likes talking about that.

Balsiefen: popular media portrays scientists as saying "I have a theory." I can tell you now that all scientists that I know of are actively trying to prevent misunderstandings like that, primarily due to the whole evolution/creationism clusterfuck. Most use "hypothesis" (even before said clusterfuck) particularly because it is the proper term. The words "theory" and "hypothesis have very rigid definitions in science, which is why I think the theory of evolution will never become the law of evolution. That doesn't make it any less "factual" than a law.
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Postby Balsiefen on Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:01 pm

Neoteny wrote:
Balsiefen: popular media portrays scientists as saying "I have a theory." I can tell you now that all scientists that I know of are actively trying to prevent misunderstandings like that, primarily due to the whole evolution/creationism clusterfuck. Most use "hypothesis" (even before said clusterfuck) particularly because it is the proper term. The words "theory" and "hypothesis have very rigid definitions in science, which is why I think the theory of evolution will never become the law of evolution. That doesn't make it any less "factual" than a law.


I am awawe most scientists don't , i was reffering to scientists in programs like horizon using the word (though i can see i didn't make that clear.)
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Postby unriggable on Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:51 pm

Neutrino wrote:What is holding Evolution back from full Law-dom, then?


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Postby Backglass on Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:13 pm

I heard these on a podcast yesterday and thought they were "spot on".

Barbara Forest, Professor of Philosophy at Southeastern Louisiana University wrote:Creationists often reject evolution by saying that evolution is, quote, “only a theory.” And that betrays either a deliberate or an unintentional misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is. Gravity is a theory —gravitational theory. Cell theory —all living things are constructed of cells. Electromagnetic theory, right? Germ theory? Germs make people sick. I mean, when you call evolution a theory, when you use the term “evolutionary theory,” that’s a very, very strong thing to say.

A theory in science is an explanation. It’s a large system which has withstood some very, very rigorous testing, literally attempts to debunk it, and has survived all of those attempts. So when creationists try to dismiss evolution as “only a theory,” they are misusing the word theory. They are using it in the ordinary sense, the non-scientific sense, of a hunch or a guess, and that’s not what it means at all.

If you have a scientific theory, you have already done years, decades, of scientific work, hard scientific research that you have offered to the scientific community for their evaluation. But never a single time has any intelligent-design creationist ever done that. Yet they’ve created a public relations concoction that they present to the public and to the media that they have some cutting-edge science that really needs to be taught to children—that there is another side to this issue and it’s only fair to tell it to the kids.

Well, there aren’t two scientific sides to this issue, because there aren’t two scientific theories. There’s only one. And if you believe that children should be told the truth, you have to tell them that the only scientific theory which explains the shape of life on Earth is evolutionary theory. And if you tell them anything other than that, you’re not telling them the truth, and that’s hardly fair.


Robert T. Pennock, Evolutionary biologist and Professor of Philosophy of Science, Michigan State University wrote:Evolution is portrayed by creationists as being equivalent to atheism. But that’s not part of the definition of evolution. Evolution is just what we have discovered empirically using the normal scientific approach. One can set aside the question theologically about what that means; that’s to depart from science itself. That’s to bring in religion, to bring in philosophy—I’m certainly not opposed to any of that as a philosopher of science. But it’s important for us to keep those things distinct conceptually. Science itself, when done properly, isn’t dogmatic, isn’t religious. It’s just a way of investigating the natural world, in the best way that we natural beings are able to do it.


Eugenie Scott, Executive Director, National Center for Science Education wrote: Basically, what intelligent design is, is a claim that evolution can’t explain things, therefore they win by default. That’s not a scientific view. Science makes its decisions by testing its claims, not just by accepting them because they sound good. So, because we have to test our claims, we can only use natural claims, because natural claims are the only ones we can test. Natural claims are the only ones that we can hold constant variables for. They are the only claims that we can control variables for. You can’t control for the effects of God.

If you teach intelligent design as a science, you are confusing students about the nature of science, about science as a way of knowing, the scientific method. You’re also confusing students and miseducating students about the position of evolution within science.

Evolution is no more controversial in modern-day science than heliocentrism—that the planets go around the sun. There are individuals out there advocating geocentrism—that the sun goes around the Earth. But we don’t give them equal time in the high school science class just because it’s fair.


Ken Miller, Professor of Biology, Brown University, author of the standard high school textbook, Biology. wrote:I think it’s a gross mischaracterization to take scientists in the past who were people of faith—and Isaac Newton is a good example—and say that Newton worked on the basis of a hypothesis of design. Well, it’s true that he certainly believed in a creator, and he believed that that creator was the architect of the universe he investigated. But here’s the key difference. Newton never proposed God as a cause in any of his theories. In other words, he didn’t seek to explain the way in which the prism broke light into many different colors by saying, “Well, it happens that way because it is God’s will, and I will stop investigating.” He sought a physical explanation, and his explanation was that light, white light, is composed of many colors, and what the prism does is to bend each color by a different amount. That’s not a divine explanation. That doesn’t use intelligent design. That’s an explanation based on the principles of physics.

The point here is that what Newton and other scientists did was to assume that the universe made sense because it had a designer, and then to use what we would call ordinary material scientific methods to investigate that universe. That’s just what science does today. What intelligent design pretends to do is to be in the tradition of Newton. What intelligent design actually is, to be perfectly honest, is they’re in the tradition of the Middle Ages, where they stop investigation by saying, “We cannot answer this mystery; it is the work of God, the designer.” This is a science-stopper.
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Postby Neoteny on Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:55 pm

Eugenie Scott came to Columbus a couple years ago and spoke to the student body. I was glad I got to see her, but I think she might be too nice... I realize that's the NCSE's goal, but damn...
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Postby Iliad on Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:03 pm

Backglass wrote:I heard these on a podcast yesterday and thought they were "spot on".

Barbara Forest, Professor of Philosophy at Southeastern Louisiana University wrote:Creationists often reject evolution by saying that evolution is, quote, “only a theory.” And that betrays either a deliberate or an unintentional misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is. Gravity is a theory —gravitational theory. Cell theory —all living things are constructed of cells. Electromagnetic theory, right? Germ theory? Germs make people sick. I mean, when you call evolution a theory, when you use the term “evolutionary theory,” that’s a very, very strong thing to say.

A theory in science is an explanation. It’s a large system which has withstood some very, very rigorous testing, literally attempts to debunk it, and has survived all of those attempts. So when creationists try to dismiss evolution as “only a theory,” they are misusing the word theory. They are using it in the ordinary sense, the non-scientific sense, of a hunch or a guess, and that’s not what it means at all.

If you have a scientific theory, you have already done years, decades, of scientific work, hard scientific research that you have offered to the scientific community for their evaluation. But never a single time has any intelligent-design creationist ever done that. Yet they’ve created a public relations concoction that they present to the public and to the media that they have some cutting-edge science that really needs to be taught to children—that there is another side to this issue and it’s only fair to tell it to the kids.

Well, there aren’t two scientific sides to this issue, because there aren’t two scientific theories. There’s only one. And if you believe that children should be told the truth, you have to tell them that the only scientific theory which explains the shape of life on Earth is evolutionary theory. And if you tell them anything other than that, you’re not telling them the truth, and that’s hardly fair.


Robert T. Pennock, Evolutionary biologist and Professor of Philosophy of Science, Michigan State University wrote:Evolution is portrayed by creationists as being equivalent to atheism. But that’s not part of the definition of evolution. Evolution is just what we have discovered empirically using the normal scientific approach. One can set aside the question theologically about what that means; that’s to depart from science itself. That’s to bring in religion, to bring in philosophy—I’m certainly not opposed to any of that as a philosopher of science. But it’s important for us to keep those things distinct conceptually. Science itself, when done properly, isn’t dogmatic, isn’t religious. It’s just a way of investigating the natural world, in the best way that we natural beings are able to do it.


Eugenie Scott, Executive Director, National Center for Science Education wrote: Basically, what intelligent design is, is a claim that evolution can’t explain things, therefore they win by default. That’s not a scientific view. Science makes its decisions by testing its claims, not just by accepting them because they sound good. So, because we have to test our claims, we can only use natural claims, because natural claims are the only ones we can test. Natural claims are the only ones that we can hold constant variables for. They are the only claims that we can control variables for. You can’t control for the effects of God.

If you teach intelligent design as a science, you are confusing students about the nature of science, about science as a way of knowing, the scientific method. You’re also confusing students and miseducating students about the position of evolution within science.

Evolution is no more controversial in modern-day science than heliocentrism—that the planets go around the sun. There are individuals out there advocating geocentrism—that the sun goes around the Earth. But we don’t give them equal time in the high school science class just because it’s fair.


Ken Miller, Professor of Biology, Brown University, author of the standard high school textbook, Biology. wrote:I think it’s a gross mischaracterization to take scientists in the past who were people of faith—and Isaac Newton is a good example—and say that Newton worked on the basis of a hypothesis of design. Well, it’s true that he certainly believed in a creator, and he believed that that creator was the architect of the universe he investigated. But here’s the key difference. Newton never proposed God as a cause in any of his theories. In other words, he didn’t seek to explain the way in which the prism broke light into many different colors by saying, “Well, it happens that way because it is God’s will, and I will stop investigating.” He sought a physical explanation, and his explanation was that light, white light, is composed of many colors, and what the prism does is to bend each color by a different amount. That’s not a divine explanation. That doesn’t use intelligent design. That’s an explanation based on the principles of physics.

The point here is that what Newton and other scientists did was to assume that the universe made sense because it had a designer, and then to use what we would call ordinary material scientific methods to investigate that universe. That’s just what science does today. What intelligent design pretends to do is to be in the tradition of Newton. What intelligent design actually is, to be perfectly honest, is they’re in the tradition of the Middle Ages, where they stop investigation by saying, “We cannot answer this mystery; it is the work of God, the designer.” This is a science-stopper.

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Postby Bavarian Raven on Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:05 pm

amen...u summed it all up...
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:57 am

Neutrino wrote: Evolution has a set of rules with which to make predictions (admittedly most of these rules are circumstantial and the predictions won't be testable for quite a while...) and has quite a fleshed-out theory. What is holding Evolution back from full Law-dom, then?


How about repeatable provability, by way of direct observation (not necessarily with the naked eye, by also with mircoscopes and other instruments)? Well, do if it can't be tested nor can in be observed, we can't make it law just yet now can we?
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Postby Iliad on Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:51 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Neutrino wrote: Evolution has a set of rules with which to make predictions (admittedly most of these rules are circumstantial and the predictions won't be testable for quite a while...) and has quite a fleshed-out theory. What is holding Evolution back from full Law-dom, then?


How about repeatable provability, by way of direct observation (not necessarily with the naked eye, by also with mircoscopes and other instruments)? Well, do if it can't be tested nor can in be observed, we can't make it law just yet now can we?
there is no other theory so yeah we can. Oh and read the above
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:04 am

Iliad wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Neutrino wrote: Evolution has a set of rules with which to make predictions (admittedly most of these rules are circumstantial and the predictions won't be testable for quite a while...) and has quite a fleshed-out theory. What is holding Evolution back from full Law-dom, then?


How about repeatable provability, by way of direct observation (not necessarily with the naked eye, by also with mircoscopes and other instruments)? Well, do if it can't be tested nor can in be observed, we can't make it law just yet now can we?
there is no other theory so yeah we can. Oh and read the above


Not by way of repeatable provability via direct observations. In other words, how we "prove" Laws like Thermodynamics and Motion; the nomaclature is clear on what is what as far as terms and their meanings go.
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Postby Iliad on Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:41 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Iliad wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Neutrino wrote: Evolution has a set of rules with which to make predictions (admittedly most of these rules are circumstantial and the predictions won't be testable for quite a while...) and has quite a fleshed-out theory. What is holding Evolution back from full Law-dom, then?


How about repeatable provability, by way of direct observation (not necessarily with the naked eye, by also with mircoscopes and other instruments)? Well, do if it can't be tested nor can in be observed, we can't make it law just yet now can we?
there is no other theory so yeah we can. Oh and read the above


Not by way of repeatable provability via direct observations. In other words, how we "prove" Laws like Thermodynamics and Motion; the nomaclature is clear on what is what as far as terms and their meanings go.

a) Read the above
b) It is the only theory and the only reason it's not a law is because it is the christians would go nuts. The point you're using evolution is a theory just proves how much you don't know about science
c) it helps reading the other person's post in a debate
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Postby Neutrino on Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:55 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
How about repeatable provability, by way of direct observation (not necessarily with the naked eye, by also with mircoscopes and other instruments)? Well, do if it can't be tested nor can in be observed, we can't make it law just yet now can we?


It is the very nature of the theory that any proper confirmation must take place ever thousands of years, minimum.
Despite this, Darwin managed to partially prove evolution, with his observations of the birds who's beaks lengthened year to year.
Putting this together with the fact that there is no alternative theory, it does begin to seem a little odd that Biology remains Law-less...
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Postby Frigidus on Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:06 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
How about repeatable provability, by way of direct observation (not necessarily with the naked eye, by also with mircoscopes and other instruments)? Well, do if it can't be tested nor can in be observed, we can't make it law just yet now can we?


Theories are not proven, they just fail to be disproven. For instance, look at the theory of gravity. I just held a pen in midair and dropped it five times. Each time it fell downwards and landed on my desk. Have I proven gravity exists? Certainly not. It does seem to follow the pattern that the theory of gravity lays out, but each time I drop the pen it could theoretically go up, sideways, or just hover there. If this happened a single time explanations would required if the theory were to remain perfectly sound.

Despite both evolution and intelligent design generally meeting this requirement they have one key difference. Namely, intelligent design can not be disproved. There is absolutely no situation in which a supporter of intelligent design would say "OK, you got me, I was wrong". Even if macroevolution was observed there would be some hokey explanation to keep their "theory" aloft. Hence it is unscientific. As has been said several times, the only current scientific explanations regarding the origin of life that hold water right now are evolution and "I dunno". I choose the leading theory.
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Postby Backglass on Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:52 pm

Science = Takes the evidence and moves forward to reach a conclusion.
Creationism = Takes the forgone conclusion and moves backwards to prove it.

Doesn't that seem a little weird to you? And why did the "science" part of creationism just suddenly show up decades after Darwin's theories?

It seems to me like this is more of an attempt to reconcile the evidence than to interpret it.
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Postby unriggable on Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:55 pm

I haven't met a single person (read: creationist) that can explain the panda dilemma.

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Postby SirSebstar on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:11 pm

unriggable wrote:I haven't met a single person that can explain the panda dilemma.

http://www.washingtonobserver.org/en/do ... 2&charid=3

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