Whats so good about religion?

[PLAYER57832]

Now if you've gotten through my preamble without nodding off here we go. As a martial artist I've seen spirit used over and over in ways that boggle the mind. It flows through different areas of the body and can be measured as changes in temperature in the areas that it flows through. It doesn't stop there, however, I routinely respond to the flow of spirit though others (as do most others by, even blindfolded, turning to face at someone who is looking at me with 95% or greater percent accurracy). Certainly this could be set up with me spinning in a circle and someone outside giving me some signal, but it isn't. I turn to the person just as if they had called my name, and the self-defense application is that when I have been accosted I was moving out of the way before the attack began.

I remember hearing something on NPR about this -- it was about reacting to something before you see it. Apparently, there's some kind of shortcut your nerves can take that go faster than it takes for your brain to process an image, so sometimes it seems like people react to things before they happen. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember the details, but that was the main point of it.

I was assuming they were blindfolded, what would otherwise be so amazing about it?

I have heard the ancient shou lin (sp?? -- i.e. the ones the old Kung Fu show was loosely based upon) monks could actually kill someone just by throwing their "chi" or energy. I don't know if that is true or not, but a look at high-ranked martial arts exhibitions and competitions leaves me filled with awe.

On a somewhat similar note, I suspect we have all heard stories of mothers who moved cars off of children and such ... women who ordinarily would not be able to lift a heavy bucket.

The world is truly full of more mysteries than any person can fathom.

[MeDeFe]

I remember hearing something on NPR about this -- it was about reacting to something before you see it. Apparently, there's some kind of shortcut your nerves can take that go faster than it takes for your brain to process an image, so sometimes it seems like people react to things before they happen. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember the details, but that was the main point of it.

I was assuming they were blindfolded, what would otherwise be so amazing about it?

I have heard the ancient shou lin (sp?? -- i.e. the ones the old Kung Fu show was loosely based upon) monks could actually kill someone just by throwing their "chi" or energy. I don't know if that is true or not, but a look at high-ranked martial arts exhibitions and competitions leaves me filled with awe.

On a somewhat similar note, I suspect we have all heard stories of mothers who moved cars off of children and such ... women who ordinarily would not be able to lift a heavy bucket.

The world is truly full of more mysteries than any person can fathom.

And they're all physical.

[CrazyAnglican]

I remember hearing something on NPR about this -- it was about reacting to something before you see it. Apparently, there's some kind of shortcut your nerves can take that go faster than it takes for your brain to process an image, so sometimes it seems like people react to things before they happen. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember the details, but that was the main point of it.

I haven't heard anything about it on NPR, but what you're describing sounds like reflex action. Some automatic responses never go to the cerebrum; they instead go to the brain stem and are turned around there. In that instance it's usually a response to adrenaline; shutting down higher brain function and entering fight or flight. Otherwise, what is it that you're responding to and how could you be sure that it isn't the same directed spiritual energy that we speak of in class? Remember, the participants are blindfolded and the entire thing is done without speaking, standing, or moving about.

MeDeFe asked for more details. The class sits in a big circle (generally each person is at least 3 meters away from the person blindfolded in the middle). The instructor spins the student around a couple of times to disorient him and then looks at a seated student at random. Everyone looks down except for that seated student. The chosen student merely looks at the blindfolded student. Within a few seconds the blindfolded student turns and assumes a fighting stance in the direction of the person looking at him. No one talks; the room is kept quiet but it isn't necessary for it to be so. I've done it outside of the class; when experiencing the same discomfort I turned around to look another person dead in the eye who had evidently been staring at me. From speaking with others about it, most people report having suddenly turned around to face a person who had apparently been staring at them. The exercise just takes away many of the variables from that situation. I suppose I could try it with earplugs and my nose pinched as well.

There have been a couple of anomalies. Family members tend to confuse one another (especially husband and wife and mother and child) perhaps the smell you suggested but I think people smell the same whether they are looking at the ground or a person. I walked out of the room entirely once, leaving my ranking student to conduct the exercise, and when I came back to peak around the corner my wife was blindfolded and in a fighting stance facing me. My instructor had one student who, without fail, turned 180 degrees away from the person staring at him. The only thing they noted different about him was that he had dyslexia. We surmised that that processing difficulty may have had something to do with it, but we couldn't know for sure.

You did mention that temperature changes are physical and I agree, but my question would be how could that flow of energy (as I term it) or temperature change have any effect on another person's health. Qi-gung, Kiatsu, and Reiki have all been shown to have effect on individuals’ health both internally and to others. Studies have been done in the Far East and in the United States. This is one abstract: http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/pap ... Qigong.pdf

Now, of course, don't misunderstand me. This isn't magic. My point is merely that if everyone has this spirit (which I believe we do) then that spirit is a natural part of any human being. It isn't supernatural. The spirit may or may not exist independently of the body. It does seem, in my experience, to be able to extend from the body to some degree though.

[WidowMakers]

Scientism is the faith that science has no boundaries, that in due time all human problems and all aspects of human endeavor will be dealt and solved by science alone.

Since there is no way to prove what we can know or what we will know or that everything is knowable, believing that science can prove, explain or answer everything is a step of faith in itself.

Would someone please respond to this statement and explain how they believe only in science even thought it has limits (it can only help us learn about what the physical universe) and why that faith is any different that a religion?

Thanks
WM

[PLAYER57832]

Scientism is the faith that science has no boundaries, that in due time all human problems and all aspects of human endeavor will be dealt and solved by science alone.Since there is no way to prove what we can know or what we will know or that everything is knowable, believing that science can prove, explain or answer everything is a step of faith in itself.

Would someone please respond to this statement and explain how they believe only in science even thought it has limits (it can only help us learn about what the physical universe) and why that faith is any different that a religion?ThanksWM

Except your assumptions are wrong.   Science is "nothing more" than a process for finding truth. It is not any particular belief. ANY idea, ANY thought can be phrased as a belief (I believe there is a God) or as a scientific question (I will set up this test to disprove that God exists). In some cases, those answers come "quickly" and with (relative) ease. In other cases, even phrasing the question in a way that can be tested is a challange. For example, though I can talk about the idea of proving or disproving the existance of God, the reality is that there IS NO test to actually prove either belief... at least now. So, though the question may be ASKED within science, the only answer science can provide is "maybe".


Science can do  much more than describe the physical universe.     Whether it ever will provide ALL the answers is unkown.  Science is sometimes just about posing questions that simply cannot be answered.   It is also irrelevant to the debate.  Those who disbelieve in faith don't necessarily claim that science will uncover everything absolutely, they just dispute that God is in any way a part of the equation.

Further, the vast majority of individuals ..whether they acknowledge the existance of God or not, include some kind of faith as part of their ideas of the world.... and keep it quite separate from science, which deals in facts (proved) and theories( not yet proven perhaps never proveable).

In short, your question was not answered because it was based on innaccuracies.  About the only folks who speak of science as a kind of faith are the very small group of Christians to which you adhere.   It is an attempt to change definitions to suit their debate.

I respect your views (I don't agree, but do respect your right to believe as you do). However, if you wish to maintain real discourse with the world outside those few Christians who think as you, you have to look at what folks in the outside world are really and truly saying and thinking ... and you won't often find that within your community.   Sorry if that sounds condescending, but it is the reality.And, I find those narrow ideas perhaps the greatest distortion of CHRIST that could be ... Christ was about truth, ALL truth, not just those we find convenient or easy to understand.  You cannot change that truth by denying it. 

Unfortunately, denying truth is what too much of the vocal, public conservative Christian community has become about ... particularly when it comes to science, but the irony is that it takes KNOWLEDGE of science to understand this.


Oh, and this denial of truth is why I dispute Snakey's ideas as well.    Truth can encompass many beliefs, but should never be confused with belief.    Truth can be debated.  Belief is often "just there" and does not really and truly have a logical, proveable base like science does... that is the distinction between the two. 

Belief is belief whether it is belief IN a God (or Gods, or other type "power"), or  belief that there IS NO God.

[PLAYER57832]

OR, to quote Einstein, when you remove the impossible, all that remains .. no matter how improbable, is the truth.

I've just read through the posts from this point on, and I find it hard to believe, but nobody seems to have picked you up on this one.

NOT Einstein, effwits, Sherlock Holmes.(Incidentally, a fictional character, like God.)

we didn't pick up on it because we don't read her posts, they are just too long.

So speaks the 5 second generation. You cannot possibly understand the true complexities of most major debates by only listening to 1 minute blurbs and single paragraph answers.

Granted, I don't claim to be an important a source, but the truth is most of my posts would barely fill a typed page of print. If that is long .... it means your attention span is pretty short. And I find that pretty scary in such an obviously intelligent individual!

[tzor]

I remember hearing something on NPR about this -- it was about reacting to something before you see it. Apparently, there's some kind of shortcut your nerves can take that go faster than it takes for your brain to process an image, so sometimes it seems like people react to things before they happen. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember the details, but that was the main point of it.

I haven't heard anything about it on NPR, but what you're describing sounds like reflex action.

I also haven't heard this article but I do know of an interesting odd fact that might explain it. While the speed of light is significantly faster than the speed of sound, the "speed" of vision is actualy significantly slower than the "speed" of hearing. I think other senses might be actually faster as well. Thus you can detect something with the other senses well before the brain actually processes the image. You don't even need to go to reflex actions to explain such situations.

[silvanricky]

Religions do unify people in society. The ideas contained within religions are usually beneficial. It's when people start to tinker with the original good ideas and become extreme with them that problems start. I think we're all religious to a certain point and the fact that so many religions share common ground just reflects that we all have a conscience and want to do good. Whether we follow it up and actually practice the good things about religion is a totally different matter.

I probably wouldn't step foot in a church, synagogue, or mosque but don't have a real problem with people that want to do that. Just don't try to convert me.

[greenoaks]

So speaks the 5 second generation. You cannot possibly understand the true complexities of most major debates by only listening to 1 minute blurbs and single paragraph answers.

i do not come here to understand the complexities of anything. i am here to get away from complexities.

anyway, this site describes itself as a place where "You can take your turn in 5 minutes with your morning cup of coffee or in between classes." so if i am unable to digest your post within a similar timeframe then you have wasted your time.

*greenoaks responds with two concise paragraphs*

[PLAYER57832]

So speaks the 5 second generation. You cannot possibly understand the true complexities of most major debates by only listening to 1 minute blurbs and single paragraph answers.

i do not come here to understand the complexities of anything. i am here to get away from complexities.

anyway, this site describes itself as a place where "You can take your turn in 5 minutes with your morning cup of coffee or in between classes." so if i am unable to digest your post within a similar timeframe then you have wasted your time.

*greenoaks responds with two concise paragraphs*

Except it shouldn't have taken even a minute to read my posts ... Sorry, couldn't resist the return dig.

But you're correct, CC is about fun. If you or anyone else doesn't wish to read what I write, no problem. I enjoy the discourse because I spend most of my day with those too young to talk much.

... and it is true that the average newscast "covers" subjects in less than 1 minute... and most people won't listen longer ... THAT I do find scary (and getting off thread).

[Frigidus]

This thread needs more Raptor Jesus.

[CrazyAnglican]

I also haven't heard this article but I do know of an interesting odd fact that might explain it. While the speed of light is significantly faster than the speed of sound, the "speed" of vision is actualy significantly slower than the "speed" of hearing. I think other senses might be actually faster as well. Thus you can detect something with the other senses well before the brain actually processes the image. You don't even need to go to reflex actions to explain such situations.

Hmm? So you're suggesting that I have heard something and responded to it? It's set up specifically to limit any other sensory info to key off of. Having done it many times it is most definitely not like hearing something and moving in that direction. Instead it feels more like a discomfort that eases when I turn in a certain direction. It is also set up so that everyone is looking at the blindfolded person and all but the selected student look down. It seems to me that everyone but the selected student would make noise by moving (not much mind you they are just looking down at the carpet). But as I've said it's an interesting idea and I should be able put the theory to the test by performing the exercise with ear plugs.

[muy_thaiguy]

I also haven't heard this article but I do know of an interesting odd fact that might explain it. While the speed of light is significantly faster than the speed of sound, the "speed" of vision is actualy significantly slower than the "speed" of hearing. I think other senses might be actually faster as well. Thus you can detect something with the other senses well before the brain actually processes the image. You don't even need to go to reflex actions to explain such situations.

Hmm? So you're suggesting that I have heard something and responded to it? It's set up specifically to limit any other sensory info to key off of. Having done it many times it is most definitely not like hearing something and moving in that direction. Instead it feels more like a discomfort that eases when I turn in a certain direction. It is also set up so that everyone is looking at the blindfolded person and all but the selected student look down. It seems to me that everyone but the selected student would make noise by moving (not much mind you they are just looking down at the carpet). But as I've said it's an interesting idea and I should be able put the theory to the test by performing the exercise with ear plugs.

Having done martial arts for several years myself, I would be walking around town, with my CD player blazing loudly (REALLY good headphones on them), I have often had the feeling of someone behind me, turn around, and there was a person, half the time someone I knew. So I do know where CA is coming from with this, since I've experienced the same basic feeling of someone behind me or looking at me, though not blindfolded, it was under similar conditions.

[Gregrios]

Now if you've gotten through my preamble without nodding off here we go. As a martial artist I've seen spirit used over and over in ways that boggle the mind. It flows through different areas of the body and can be measured as changes in temperature in the areas that it flows through. It doesn't stop there, however, I routinely respond to the flow of spirit though others (as do most others by, even blindfolded, turning to face at someone who is looking at me with 95% or greater percent accurracy). Certainly this could be set up with me spinning in a circle and someone outside giving me some signal, but it isn't. I turn to the person just as if they had called my name, and the self-defense application is that when I have been accosted I was moving out of the way before the attack began.

I remember hearing something on NPR about this -- it was about reacting to something before you see it. Apparently, there's some kind of shortcut your nerves can take that go faster than it takes for your brain to process an image, so sometimes it seems like people react to things before they happen. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember the details, but that was the main point of it.

Yeah it's called having understanding of human nature and it's a curse.

[MeDeFe]

Well, I'm stumped to explain how mtg can know how when people are looking at him from behind, unless they only looked at him because he performed an unusual action (turned around) which caught their attention. Does anyone know a neurologist or something? I feel that research is needed on this subject. Under double-blind circumstances. That epecially applies for transferring spirit from one person to an other, that abstract that was linked to earlier mentioned something like that and my first thought was what the people in the experiment thought of it themselves and whether they knew what to expect would happen.

[tzor]

Hmm? So you're suggesting that I have heard something and responded to it?

No I'm not suggesting anything, I'm just saying that vision is one of the slowest senses. There are a whole lot of other senses out there and sound is one of them. We have two functions with the ears, there is the obvious left / right difference but there is also a design in the ears where the spectrum of frequencies received from the forward direction is different from the spectrum of frequencies received from the revese direction so you can actually pinpoint a sound in a two dimensional plane around you if you are familiar with the expected range of frequencies of that sound. Not everything processed by the brain is moved to the active concious level. (In fact there is a lot of filtering done to sound before it gets to the concious level, that's how we are able to filter out conversations in the midst of other background conversations.) But at some level you become aware of it.

[jonesthecurl]

Except it shouldn't have taken even a minute to read my posts ... Sorry, couldn't resist the return dig.

But you're correct, CC is about fun. If you or anyone else doesn't wish to read what I write, no problem. I enjoy the discourse because I spend most of my day with those too young to talk much.

... and it is true that the average newscast "covers" subjects in less than 1 minute... and most people won't listen longer ... THAT I do find scary (and getting off thread).

Oh, I wouldn't worry about getting off thread - nobody else does.

I have noticed that even programs about music often only play enough of a track for watchers/listeners to identify it - usually "the hook". As if you wouldn't want, on a program about music which you've bothered to tune in to, to hear the whole of a track you like.

[tzor]

Oh, I wouldn't worry about getting off thread - nobody else does.

Nut honestly, have we ever been on thread? Even fron the start? I don't think so. Consider the title of the thread that is on the top of the page, "Whats so good about religion?" From the start this thread has been about faith not religion.

faith: the act or state of wholeheartedly and steadfastly believing in the existence, power, and benevolence of a supreme being, of having confidence in his providential care, and of being loyal to his will as revealed or believed in : belief and trust in and loyalty to God

religon: the personal commitment to and serving of God or a god with worshipful devotion, conduct in accord with divine commands especially as found in accepted sacred writings or declared by authoritative teachers, a way of life recognized as incumbent on true believers, and typically the relating of oneself to an organized body of believers

The whole argument has been about faith not religion. The athiest argument is against faith, the very idea of believing in a supreme being. You need to assume faith in order to get to the real question, what is so good in having a set of rules of conduct that relate in how you respond to your personal faith.

It's similiar to the problem when people confuse seperation of Church and State. As Jefferson had envisioned it, the wall simply meant that a civil leader had no right acting as a religious leader and vice versa. His original letter to the Dabury Baptists was all about the question of whether or not he would as President establish "holidays" which were then still considered "Holy Days" and more the domain of a church (an organized body of believers). The King of England could do such things because he was the head of the Church of England as well but we in the United States were well beyond those sort of primitive and petty things. (At least in Jefferson's mind.)

[Backglass]

Religion is great!

It allows you to live in a fairy tale dream land and accept everthing that happens in your life as fate.

QFT!

[greenoaks]

Well, I'm stumped to explain how mtg can know how when people are looking at him from behind, unless they only looked at him because he performed an unusual action (turned around) which caught their attention. Does anyone know a neurologist or something? I feel that research is needed on this subject. Under double-blind circumstances. That especially applies for transferring spirit from one person to an other, that abstract that was linked to earlier mentioned something like that and my first thought was what the people in the experiment thought of it themselves and whether they knew what to expect would happen.

this has nothing at all to do with martial arts as some women have exhibited this skill for millennium. they are collectively referred to as 'mothers'. i am sure we all remember those times how they didn't need to be looking at us but they knew we are up to no good. that skill is commonly referred to as 'eyes in the back of their heads' or 'mother's intuition'.

so it would seem the purpose of the training that CrazyAnglican was undergoing was to allow him to get in touch with his feminine side.

[t-o-m]

This thread needs more Raptor Jesus.

QFT

[CrazyAnglican]

Oh, I wouldn't worry about getting off thread - nobody else does.

Nut honestly, have we ever been on thread? Even fron the start? I don't think so. Consider the title of the thread that is on the top of the page, "Whats so good about religion?" From the start this thread has been about faith not religion.

True. My own part of it was about evidence that suggested the existence of a spiritual part of human beings.

In answer to the original question "What's so good about religion" I'd have to speak of the many charities sponsored by churches and religious organizations. They have also standardized (codified) to a great extent the behaviors that are desireable in many societies and provided incentive for people to exemplify and internalize those behaviors even to the level of attempting to reign in one's own thoughts and intentions (in this last area laws tend to be a little less effective due to the difficulty in proving what a person's thoughts and intentions might have been). In addition to this, religions have been an inspiration for literature, art, music, and any number of other achievements that make life more pleasant for people in most societies (as an example, I'd offer the great number of secular songs and works that have some form of biblical or classical allusion-even the above picture "Raptor Jesus" is religiously based as it's still an artist's depiction of the last supper). Religions, in and of themselves, have had some really good influences on society.

[tzor]

True. My own part of it was about evidence that suggested the existence of a spiritual part of human beings.

But even that isn’t really the question what good is faith. Nor is the opposite argument of the strong atheists a good answer either. The simple fact is that faith is as “good” as reason and logic. Can faith make you believe in stupid things? Sure can, but so can reason and logic. Hitler was very logical but very wrong. As the old saying goes “garbage in means garbage out” and to restate this if the assumptions (or for the more logical axioms) are false all reasoning is subsequently false. True science realizes that it is built on a set of axioms that might not be true. We know the universe is not Euclidian, for example but it was a reasonable axiom at the time.

Is faith good? I call it the safety net over the pit to nihilism. That’s got to be good.

[bradleybadly]

Religion is great!

It allows you to live in a fairy tale dream land and accept everthing that happens in your life as fate.

QFT!

Good to see you back, man!

[CrazyAnglican]

Is faith good? I call it the safety net over the pit to nihilism. That’s got to be good.

I can see your point. There are plenty of studies that point to the overall benefits of living a religious life. Everything from higher chances of surviving and quicker recovery from surgery to lesser instances of depression have been attributed to it. Surveys have even pointed to longer life among believers in some areas. From a purely pragmatic point of view, it's a pretty good deal. Aside from references to fairy tales and insistence that it's only the placebo effect, it works.