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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby xelabale on Wed May 06, 2009 10:55 am

Neoteny wrote:"Belief" is suffering from multiple definition disease. When an atheist discusses "belief," they are often intending to discuss "religious belief," and they are referring to belief that requires faith, with no empirical foundation. I believe you are referring to beliefs in general as perspectives, which are often based on observation and such, which can be both religious or not.

Ok, now go.

I think I mentioned this neo, and put forward the idea that people should use more neutral terminology to avoid just this. I throw down a challenge to the people discussing this - and it's an interesting discussion -

Challenge - define your position without the word belief
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed May 06, 2009 11:26 am

I see no reason to posit the existence of a god or gods.
Without evidence for god/gods, and in the absence of any difference I can imagine between the universe as it presents itself to me and one which contains no gods, it would seem that to add putative god/s to the picture is unecessary and contrary to reason.

How's that?
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Neoteny on Wed May 06, 2009 11:50 am

Could not have said it better myself.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed May 06, 2009 12:49 pm

Ditto.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed May 06, 2009 12:50 pm

I see no reason deny the existence of a being that exists in more then just our "dimension", if you will, as well as conventional logic. The logic 2500 years ago was to bleed someone to cure them of almost anything. The logic 50 years ago would have students duck under desks in the even of a nuclear blast. The logic 230 years ago was that Britain could not be defeated by a few of her colonies.

What this shows is that human logic is a cold thing, but not exactly a permanent one, and never to be relied on alone, as humans are an emotional race. I don't remember the movie, but I did a thread on vigilante justice based on the movie. Another thing one can also see in the movie is that an appeal in logos (logic, or simple and straight facts) are only one part of the story, and if relied on alone, give you an incomplete view of the world. However, an appeal to the emotions is far more powerful in more minds then logic ever would be. Here, I will post a summary of what I mean.

Prosecutor: This man gunned down these two boys before they ever went to trial. His daughter is alive, is she not? What this man did was cold blooded murder, and vigilante justice, gunning down two unarmed boys as they made their way to the courtroom.

Defense Lawyer: Yes this man killed those two men. But, imagine, your daughter was kidnapped, beaten, held down, and raped? When all she was trying to do was go to the store get some food for her family. She will never be able to have children now, and she will most likely be scarred for life from this incident. Now, imagine if that little girl was white? Would you still hold her father, someone who at the time thought his daughter would die, as a murderer, or simply doing the justice system service as well as the community?
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed May 06, 2009 12:55 pm

You're saying that it is somewhat logical to belive in any god because logically logic can change?

Also, comparing logic in "the age of reason" (communication, & real science) to logic 230 years ago is apples to oranges.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Snorri1234 on Wed May 06, 2009 1:09 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:I see no reason deny the existence of a being that exists in more then just our "dimension", if you will, as well as conventional logic. The logic 2500 years ago was to bleed someone to cure them of almost anything. The logic 50 years ago would have students duck under desks in the even of a nuclear blast. The logic 230 years ago was that Britain could not be defeated by a few of her colonies.

What this shows is that human logic is a cold thing, but not exactly a permanent one, and never to be relied on alone, as humans are an emotional race. I don't remember the movie, but I did a thread on vigilante justice based on the movie. Another thing one can also see in the movie is that an appeal in logos (logic, or simple and straight facts) are only one part of the story, and if relied on alone, give you an incomplete view of the world. However, an appeal to the emotions is far more powerful in more minds then logic ever would be. Here, I will post a summary of what I mean.

Prosecutor: This man gunned down these two boys before they ever went to trial. His daughter is alive, is she not? What this man did was cold blooded murder, and vigilante justice, gunning down two unarmed boys as they made their way to the courtroom.

Defense Lawyer: Yes this man killed those two men. But, imagine, your daughter was kidnapped, beaten, held down, and raped? When all she was trying to do was go to the store get some food for her family. She will never be able to have children now, and she will most likely be scarred for life from this incident. Now, imagine if that little girl was white? Would you still hold her father, someone who at the time thought his daughter would die, as a murderer, or simply doing the justice system service as well as the community?

YES THEY DESERVED TO DIE AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL!
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Neoteny on Wed May 06, 2009 1:16 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:I see no reason deny the existence of a being that exists in more then just our "dimension", if you will, as well as conventional logic. The logic 2500 years ago was to bleed someone to cure them of almost anything. The logic 50 years ago would have students duck under desks in the even of a nuclear blast. The logic 230 years ago was that Britain could not be defeated by a few of her colonies.

What this shows is that human logic is a cold thing, but not exactly a permanent one, and never to be relied on alone, as humans are an emotional race. I don't remember the movie, but I did a thread on vigilante justice based on the movie. Another thing one can also see in the movie is that an appeal in logos (logic, or simple and straight facts) are only one part of the story, and if relied on alone, give you an incomplete view of the world. However, an appeal to the emotions is far more powerful in more minds then logic ever would be. Here, I will post a summary of what I mean.

Prosecutor: This man gunned down these two boys before they ever went to trial. His daughter is alive, is she not? What this man did was cold blooded murder, and vigilante justice, gunning down two unarmed boys as they made their way to the courtroom.

Defense Lawyer: Yes this man killed those two men. But, imagine, your daughter was kidnapped, beaten, held down, and raped? When all she was trying to do was go to the store get some food for her family. She will never be able to have children now, and she will most likely be scarred for life from this incident. Now, imagine if that little girl was white? Would you still hold her father, someone who at the time thought his daughter would die, as a murderer, or simply doing the justice system service as well as the community?


Well, with humans, emotional effects need to be incorporated into a logical perspective of the situation you are describing above. One can be in an emotional state that prevents logical thought, but it does not preclude a logical analysis of that state. Anyhow, I don't really see how (logically) this applies to what jones said, and it seems to me that you are trying to take the discussion elsewhere. The only thing I found that was particularly relevant is bolded. And I agree with it. There is no reason to deny the existence of such a being since there is no reason to even posit one. The bit following it about logic might be valid on its own, but not particularly convincing of anything. Additionally, if conventional logic is so fluid, and not necessarily trustworthy, shouldn't we take to task the most prominent conventional logic of our civilization: like all the business following from the assumption that there is a god?
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed May 06, 2009 1:26 pm

What I am saying is, relying on logic alone is not the way to go, neither is relying on emotion alone. However, relying on emotion alone can carry a lot of weight behind it. Back that up with some logic though, and you are good to go, depending on what that logic is, of course.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed May 06, 2009 2:32 pm

So your point is what?

Nobody can make a reasonable assumption if someone else "feels" there's a possibility they might be wrong?

You can't deny god because somebody might shoot an alleged rapist?

Wooly thinking is good if it's the only support for your way of thinking?

Not entirely with you here. But I have a vague undefined feeling that you are incorrect.

Or to quote again the immortal words of Mel Smith in the spoof discussion progamme After Hours, "do correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a load of old bollocks?"
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby MaleAlphaThree on Thu May 07, 2009 8:45 pm

What the hell happened to my logical arguments from two days ago?!

You guys are talking about feelings and shit!!!

I'll give you some emotion to stick in your ear....

Atheism is not a fucking belief, it is a perspective. I don't hear, feel, see, smell, or taste any evidence of "God", Gandalf, or Gorgons (Legend of Zelda) so, from the standard definition of the sane mind, that means they almost definitely don't motherfucking exist, and I doubt they ever existed (outside of entertainment mediums). All I find in our world, with the five senses that I own (just like everybody else?), is a whole FUCKLOAD of boring existence, propaganda, and fanboys. We might as well be arguing whether the Star Wars universe actually exists somewhere out there!!! It's the same exact argument! You would HAVE to be an idiot to believe in nonsense like that! And I mean that, seriously. :evil:

Human beings are animals, OK?! What the f*ck do we really know about the universe?! NOT MUCH. So what? We walk and talk like we're the hottest shit since sunlight, but it doesn't count for anything when the lot of us act like children that don't want to grow up, holding onto our fairy tales and screaming, "God does exist! And the Little Red Riding Hood! And the Power Rangers! And Superman! And Tenacious D*!" We're self-aware, and because an assload of people don't want to take responsibility for their own existence or actions, they blame imaginary friends for everything they can't handle or understand. :roll:

Tell me, what is Peter Pan like? Is he cool, in person? Why, you ask?
You must know.... you've been living in NEVERLAND YOUR WHOLE DAMN LIFE!!!


*The band exists, but the superheroes they say they are don't. It sucks, I know.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby john9blue on Thu May 07, 2009 8:59 pm

MaleAlphaThree wrote:What the hell happened to my logical arguments from two days ago?!

You guys are talking about feelings and shit!!!

I'll give you some emotion to stick in your ear....

Atheism is not a fucking belief, it is a perspective. I don't hear, feel, see, smell, or taste any evidence of "God", Gandalf, or Gorgons (Legend of Zelda) so, from the standard definition of the sane mind, that means they almost definitely don't motherfucking exist, and I doubt they ever existed (outside of entertainment mediums). All I find in our world, with the five senses that I own (just like everybody else?), is a whole FUCKLOAD of boring existence, propaganda, and fanboys. We might as well be arguing whether the Star Wars universe actually exists somewhere out there!!! It's the same exact argument! You would HAVE to be an idiot to believe in nonsense like that! And I mean that, seriously. :evil:

Human beings are animals, OK?! What the f*ck do we really know about the universe?! NOT MUCH. So what? We walk and talk like we're the hottest shit since sunlight, but it doesn't count for anything when the lot of us act like children that don't want to grow up, holding onto our fairy tales and screaming, "God does exist! And the Little Red Riding Hood! And the Power Rangers! And Superman! And Tenacious D*!" We're self-aware, and because an assload of people don't want to take responsibility for their own existence or actions, they blame imaginary friends for everything they can't handle or understand. :roll:

Tell me, what is Peter Pan like? Is he cool, in person? Why, you ask?
You must know.... you've been living in NEVERLAND YOUR WHOLE DAMN LIFE!!!


*The band exists, but the superheroes they say they are don't. It sucks, I know.


It's refreshing to see a post without any feeling behind it. :)
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby MaleAlphaThree on Fri May 08, 2009 12:19 pm

As cold and unforgiving as Death himself, I am. ;)
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby xelabale on Sat May 09, 2009 2:37 am

MaleAlphaThree wrote:What the hell happened to my logical arguments from two days ago?!

You guys are talking about feelings and shit!!!

I'll give you some emotion to stick in your ear....

Atheism is not a fucking belief, it is a perspective. I don't hear, feel, see, smell, or taste any evidence of "God", Gandalf, or Gorgons (Legend of Zelda) so, from the standard definition of the sane mind, that means they almost definitely don't motherfucking exist, and I doubt they ever existed (outside of entertainment mediums). All I find in our world, with the five senses that I own (just like everybody else?), is a whole FUCKLOAD of boring existence, propaganda, and fanboys. We might as well be arguing whether the Star Wars universe actually exists somewhere out there!!! It's the same exact argument! You would HAVE to be an idiot to believe in nonsense like that! And I mean that, seriously. :evil:

Human beings are animals, OK?! What the f*ck do we really know about the universe?! NOT MUCH. So what? We walk and talk like we're the hottest shit since sunlight, but it doesn't count for anything when the lot of us act like children that don't want to grow up, holding onto our fairy tales and screaming, "God does exist! And the Little Red Riding Hood! And the Power Rangers! And Superman! And Tenacious D*!" We're self-aware, and because an assload of people don't want to take responsibility for their own existence or actions, they blame imaginary friends for everything they can't handle or understand. :roll:

Tell me, what is Peter Pan like? Is he cool, in person? Why, you ask?
You must know.... you've been living in NEVERLAND YOUR WHOLE DAMN LIFE!!!


*The band exists, but the superheroes they say they are don't. It sucks, I know.

What's the opposite perspective of atheism?
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby MaleAlphaThree on Mon May 11, 2009 11:07 pm

Fantasy.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Neoteny on Mon May 11, 2009 11:08 pm

Pow!
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Frigidus on Mon May 11, 2009 11:12 pm

Image

Been saving this one for the right moment.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby xelabale on Tue May 12, 2009 5:05 am

MaleAlphaThree wrote:Fantasy.

There's no evidence for, there's no evidence against. What's the problem? They're both fantasies. Logic is a human construct. The world is not real, it's only how we perceive it. If we could see different wavelengths what would be our "logic" of the world? Just because our feeble senses and false logic can't detect a God, it is arrogant in the extreme to believe we are correct. God is everything. God doesn't have to control, God is.

Related - are you dualist?
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Neoteny on Tue May 12, 2009 11:52 am

Nobody should be a dualist anymore. Particularly an atheist.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby xelabale on Tue May 12, 2009 12:22 pm

Neoteny wrote:Nobody should be a dualist anymore. Particularly an atheist.

Then where is our mind? Does it exist in a material sense?

Using logic and reason to argue for or against God is absurd. There can be no proof for or against, due to the inherent traits God must have, eg omnipotence etc. We are simply not in a position to reason the existence or non-existence of a supreme being, as we ourselves are not supreme. Any attempt to do so is superfluous. Belief in God is faith. Non-belief in God is also faith.

Personally I believe in God but in a non-religious context. I choose to believe God exists, and this practically helps my existence. What you choose is entirely up to you, and just as "logical" as my choices.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby MaleAlphaThree on Tue May 12, 2009 12:27 pm

Dualist as in there is only a yes or no answer and nothing in between? Well, concerning the existence of a deity, "no" I am not. Concerning whether your mind is warped by fantastical beliefs, that do not enhance your life nearly as much as proponents of the fantastical beliefs will attempt to convince you it will, "yes" I am.

My mind must be really infatuated with the scientific method, because I can't even begin to accept why believing in one "God" is better than another "Flying Spaghetti Monster". There's no evidence for/against a lot of things. If I spent all my available time/money on being prepared for all those those things, I would run out of both (in my lifetime) before I even got to Dianetics (if I was going alphabetically). So I've settled for not preparing to expect any of them. It's working out fine so far, and no matter how "realistic" you attempt to make your imaginary thesis, I'm not going to bite.

For example: I love the Matrix as much as any hardcore fanboy. However, I'm not going to run around trying to find evidence, attempt to prove the reality, or harass Lawrence Fishbourne and Keanu Reeves.... because even if I did, it wouldn't make a fucking difference. I'm still stuck in the Matrix, and there's nothing I can do about it.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Neoteny on Tue May 12, 2009 12:34 pm

xelabale wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Nobody should be a dualist anymore. Particularly an atheist.

Then where is our mind? Does it exist in a material sense?

Using logic and reason to argue for or against God is absurd. There can be no proof for or against, due to the inherent traits God must have, eg omnipotence etc. We are simply not in a position to reason the existence or non-existence of a supreme being, as we ourselves are not supreme. Any attempt to do so is superfluous. Belief in God is faith. Non-belief in God is also faith.

Personally I believe in God but in a non-religious context. I choose to believe God exists, and this practically helps my existence. What you choose is entirely up to you, and just as "logical" as my choices.


I never get tired of hearing the same arguments over and over. Really, I don't. Yelling "FAITH" at me over and over again does not serve to convince anyone of anything. Please, demonstrate why faith and logic are non-overlapping in a theistic worldview. They are not in an atheistic one. Please, tell me why there can be no proof of god in a logical sense, and why this does not bother you? Why is omnipotence outside of logic, and why is that A-ok in your perspective of the universe? What the f*ck does "supreme being" mean?

Are you proud that your god is illogical, and that your belief in it is the same?

I've heard it all before. Please, tell me something new so I don't have to resort to dismissing you out of hand because you don't have a mature view of the universe.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby xelabale on Tue May 12, 2009 1:24 pm

Neoteny wrote:
xelabale wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Nobody should be a dualist anymore. Particularly an atheist.

Then where is our mind? Does it exist in a material sense?

Using logic and reason to argue for or against God is absurd. There can be no proof for or against, due to the inherent traits God must have, eg omnipotence etc. We are simply not in a position to reason the existence or non-existence of a supreme being, as we ourselves are not supreme. Any attempt to do so is superfluous. Belief in God is faith. Non-belief in God is also faith.

Personally I believe in God but in a non-religious context. I choose to believe God exists, and this practically helps my existence. What you choose is entirely up to you, and just as "logical" as my choices.


I never get tired of hearing the same arguments over and over. Really, I don't. Yelling "FAITH" at me over and over again does not serve to convince anyone of anything. Please, demonstrate why faith and logic are non-overlapping in a theistic worldview. They are not in an atheistic one. Please, tell me why there can be no proof of god in a logical sense, and why this does not bother you? Why is omnipotence outside of logic, and why is that A-ok in your perspective of the universe? What the f*ck does "supreme being" mean?

Are you proud that your god is illogical, and that your belief in it is the same?

I've heard it all before. Please, tell me something new so I don't have to resort to dismissing you out of hand because you don't have a mature view of the universe.

Ignoring your lack of respect for a point of view different to your own:

The definition of God is the creator of the universe(s). This is analogous to "supreme being". Seeing as it upsets you I won't use it again.

I'm not trying to persuade you that God exists so don't worry on that score.

Why do you believe so fervently that there is underlying logic in the universe? We only experience the world in 3 dimensions - how many are there?

Newton's logic was absolutely correct for more than 3 centuries - had I argued against it I would have been perceived as a moron. We now no that it's "good, but it's not right."

I suggest you get over your dependency on logic - it cannot explain everything.

Tell me the logic behind these things:

a) I'm attracted to Claudia Schiffer but not to Britney Spears

b) I dreamt about a sheep last night

c) Emotion

d) Why do we seek answers to life. To steal from Gaarder... If a ball rolls into a room, what does a cat do? It chases the ball. What does a human do? It looks to see where the ball came from. Why?

e) Why do we exist?

There is nothing wrong with having faith - it's not a dirty word. I think you are used to the religious connotations, please do not apply them to me, I am not religious.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby Frigidus on Tue May 12, 2009 1:50 pm

xelabale wrote:a) I'm attracted to Claudia Schiffer but not to Britney Spears


Differences in genetics mean that different people are attracted to different things. Clearly there is some aspect of Claudia Schiffer you find attractive that Britney Spears lacks.

xelabale wrote:b) I dreamt about a sheep last night


Dreams are a sort of "brain static". Sometimes they will have some sort of connection to your life, as often one might dream about something they spent the day doing or something they thought about before they went to sleep. Often dreams will have little bearing on reality though, and will seem quite irrelevant. Ascribing meaning to dreams is misguided.

xelabale wrote:c) Emotion


Emotion is the way that animals understand how they should react to a particular situation. For example, if a lion sees a strange animal approaching her cubs, she becomes angry and threatens or attacks said animal. If a human child is caught stealing from a friend or family member they feel shame and act in a humble manner in the hopes that they will receive less punishment. Obviously there are numerous emotions that have widely varying degrees, but they all serve as guidelines to our behavior. They are no more curious than our other thought processes.

xelabale wrote:d) Why do we seek answers to life. To steal from Gaarder... If a ball rolls into a room, what does a cat do? It chases the ball. What does a human do? It looks to see where the ball came from. Why?


Curiosity has served humanity quite well, being one of the driving forces behind our success as a species. Our use of tools is largely due to the way we examine things from every angle, finding uses for things other species would rapidly grow bored with.

xelabale wrote:e) Why do we exist?


Pure chance. The number of planets unsuitable for life dwarf those with the capability. The building blocks for the most primitive life forms are complex and require the coming together of several unlikely phenomena. The shift from life to replicating life is not by any means guaranteed. The growth in complexity of life leads to even more requirements for continued survival. The odds of a particular individual being born are infinitesimally small. We are all quite lucky, but there is no particular reason we exist in the same way there is no particular reason for us to continue living.
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Re: SultanOfSurreal

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue May 12, 2009 2:05 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:I see no reason to posit the existence of a god or gods.
Without evidence for god/gods, and in the absence of any difference I can imagine between the universe as it presents itself to me and one which contains no gods, it would seem that to add putative god/s to the picture is unecessary and contrary to reason.

How's that?



This was my response to being asked to say why I am an atheist, without using the word "belief".
Please note that it does not mention "faith" either, and still works.
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