Americans

[Guiscard]

So Guis, just curious, how to you propose we get this job done?

its a hard one really. A withdrawal of troops in the current climate WILL lead to an Iraqi civil war. We can't let that happen. BUT on the other hand, in the south us Brits have managed to pacify the situation enough to enable a handover of government and a gradual withdrawal of troops. I think we need to bring in other parties, basically Iran and Syria, to aid the situation and to enable a gradual withdrawal of American forces as well. The situation is obviously an extremely volatile one. A complete troop withdrawal at the moment is unthinkable. We can't draw up a timetable unless that timetable says 'We will withdraw once it we can safely leave Iraq without descent into civil war and sectarian violence on an immense scale.

its our mess and we've got to stay and fix it.

[ritz627]

So Guis, just curious, how to you propose we get this job done?

its a hard one really. A withdrawal of troops in the current climate WILL lead to an Iraqi civil war. We can't let that happen. BUT on the other hand, in the south us Brits have managed to pacify the situation enough to enable a handover of government and a gradual withdrawal of troops. I think we need to bring in other parties, basically Iran and Syria, to aid the situation and to enable a gradual withdrawal of American forces as well. The situation is obviously an extremely volatile one. A complete troop withdrawal at the moment is unthinkable. We can't draw up a timetable unless that timetable says 'We will withdraw once it we can safely leave Iraq without descent into civil war and sectarian violence on an immense scale.

its our mess and we've got to stay and fix it.

Yes, of course we can't withdrawl our troops at this moment right now. A gradual withdrawal is the best option as far as the troops go. Diplomatically, it is totally different. We need to keep a close eye on the government. And given that Iran and Syria don't exactly want to cooperate with us, there is no other option to keep an eye on it ourselves and train Iraqi military and a police force. Again, as of this moment, right now, we can not just take all of our troops out, but as the policing and military forces grow stronger, we must enact a gradual withdrawl of troops from the area. Once we have a strong enough military and policing force, there is no longer a need for us to stay there. But diplomatically, we must always keep an eye on them to make sure that the military doesn't fall into the wrong hands. Our presence militarally is not directly aiding in Iraqi government stability is what I should have said before. The amount of troops we have right now is unnecessary, we could be accomplishing the same goals with about half of the troops.

[Backglass]

And for the record:

The "War" has cost American taxpayers $419,414,423,354.00. thus far. Thats 419 Billion for the numerically impaired. It continues to grow at at close to 10 Million dollars an hour.

Before some of you say it is money well-spent, you must realize just how large a number that is. For example, that amount of money would:

• Give 20 million, 300 hundred thousand college students FREE four year rides at public university.
• Hire 7 Million new public school teachers.
• Fully fund GLOBAL anti-hunger efforts for 17 years.
• Ensure that EVERY CHILD ON THE PLANET received basic immunizations for the next 127 years.

Yeah...it's an unbelievable amount of taxpayer money, right or wrong.

www.costofwar.com - all figures based on congressional appropriations.

[flashleg8]

And for the record:

The "War" has cost American taxpayers $419,414,423,354.00. thus far. Thats 419 Billion for the numerically impaired. It continues to grow at at close to 10 Million dollars an hour.

Before some of you say it is money well-spent, you must realize just how large a number that is. For example, that amount of money would:

• Give 20 million, 300 hundred thousand college students FREE four year rides at public university.
• Hire 7 Million new public school teachers.
• Fully fund GLOBAL anti-hunger efforts for 17 years.
• Ensure that EVERY CHILD ON THE PLANET received basic immunizations for the next 127 years.

Yeah...it's an unbelievable amount of taxpayer money, right or wrong.

www.costofwar.com - all figures based on congressional appropriations.

Unbelievable! Backglass - figures like this put everything into perspective. If the US had given this money to the Middle Easter people in the form of medical aid, humanitarian efforts to improve infrastructure and trade subsidies - does anyone think we would have the same problems with anti-US sentiment?
The US could have increased its worldwide prestige, gained military and economic allies in the region and all this with no bloodshed!
If you kill a person's family in a war they will never forgive you - no matter if the war is supposedly to free them or not - but drill a new well for them, give them new roads and a better market for their goods and you will earn their trust and respect. No one takes up arms lightly. These people are fighting in Iraq (and elsewhere) as they truly believe they have no other choice. Prove them wrong.

[unriggable]

Okay, anybody who is for the war, you need to tell us why we went in there in the first place and if that is what we are waiting for to leave.

[Titanic]

And for the record:

The "War" has cost American taxpayers $419,414,423,354.00. thus far. Thats 419 Billion for the numerically impaired. It continues to grow at at close to 10 Million dollars an hour.

Before some of you say it is money well-spent, you must realize just how large a number that is. For example, that amount of money would:

• Give 20 million, 300 hundred thousand college students FREE four year rides at public university.
• Hire 7 Million new public school teachers.
• Fully fund GLOBAL anti-hunger efforts for 17 years.
• Ensure that EVERY CHILD ON THE PLANET received basic immunizations for the next 127 years.

Yeah...it's an unbelievable amount of taxpayer money, right or wrong.

www.costofwar.com - all figures based on congressional appropriations.

That figure includes money used for humanitarian aid and reconstruction within Iraq, as well as training the police and army. That portion of te money is well spent, you need to find out how much USA has spent on weapons and mssiles and military personallel etc.. otherwise the figure is kind of used unfairly.

[unriggable]

...otherwise the figure is kind of used unfairly.

Not at all like the Bush administration's representation of the amount of times Kerry wanted to raise taxes. Bush said he wanted to raise them 350 times, Kerry actually only voted to raise them once, just to give you an idea.

[Titanic]

...otherwise the figure is kind of used unfairly.

Not at all like the Bush administration's representation of the amount of times Kerry wanted to raise taxes. Bush said he wanted to raise them 350 times, Kerry actually only voted to raise them once, just to give you an idea.

What does that have to do with what I said?

[Backglass]

That figure includes money used for humanitarian aid and reconstruction within Iraq, as well as training the police and army. That portion of te money is well spent, you need to find out how much USA has spent on weapons and mssiles and military personallel etc.. otherwise the figure is kind of used unfairly.

I don't think it's unfair at all. It is the total cost of the "war" based on congressional appropriations. Rebuilding and aid is part of war.

By the way, that number is regarding Iraq only. Had Afghanistan been included it would be much higher still.

Would it be any "fairer" if the number were only 300,000,000,000.00 instead?

[Titanic]

That figure includes money used for humanitarian aid and reconstruction within Iraq, as well as training the police and army. That portion of te money is well spent, you need to find out how much USA has spent on weapons and mssiles and military personallel etc.. otherwise the figure is kind of used unfairly.

I don't think it's unfair at all. It is the total cost of the "war" based on congressional appropriations. Rebuilding and aid is part of war.

By the way, that number is regarding Iraq only. Had Afghanistan been included it would be much higher still.

Would it be any "fairer" if the number were only 300,000,000,000.00 instead?

Yes, but its not a complete waste of money is it? The money spent on humanitarian aid etc.. has not been wasted. The money spent purely ont he war side, yes that has been wasted, and could have been used on poverty or health etc..

Btw, I dont completely trust that number. Over $400billion sounds too much imo. Also, the site is hardly a good source. It was deliberately set up to state the cost of war, so bias is a probability.

[The1exile]

Yes, but its not a complete waste of money is it? The money spent on humanitarian aid etc.. has not been wasted. The money spent purely ont he war side, yes that has been wasted, and could have been used on poverty or health etc..

The thing is, without the war, it's likely much of the humanitarian aid wouldn't have been needed to rebuild. Less explosions, less causalites for a start. Then there's the actual cost of weaponry, soldiers etc... fact remains that the humanitarian aid bit of that isn't so great at mitigating the blame as you might think, especially when compared with the option of doing it at the beginning.

[Backglass]

Btw, I dont completely trust that number. Over $400billion sounds too much imo. Also, the site is hardly a good source. It was deliberately set up to state the cost of war, so bias is a probability.

Of course it was deliberately setup. Deliberately setup to disclose the actual amount being spent on this "war" according to congressional appropriations...these aren't invented numbers.

http://costofwar.com/numbers.html explains them.

[Titanic]

This isn too good.

most of which we estimated would be for the Iraq War

This one is for $100 billion, which is around 25% of the total counter.

While Congress has not yet approved this request, the counter is including it in the total it is counting up to.

The word "about" was used three times in four figures.

Theres a lot of approximations and abouts and guesses. There not solid figures. Also, including money which isn even approved yet is kind of biased and wrong.

[Rahm Es Hestos]

This message is for everyone reading this thread that wishes to speak badly about Americans. Yes, America is a nation with many problems. Yes, many Americans are over weight and rude. Yes, there are many bad things in this world caused by the people of America. Should we all point fingers at the Americans because of this and say you guys are bastards go f*ck yourselves? NO. The reason behind this is that there is no society on EARTH that doesnt have flaws. You can look at any given culture/nation throughout history and put them down for things they have done wrong. The truth is we are all imperfect. Imperfection is one of the only things that unites us as a race. With this said, is there ANYONE reading this that can honestly look themselves in the mirror and say that they are better then someone else they don't even know be they American or otherwise? If you can, God bless you but I think you need to take another look.

[ritz627]

This message is for everyone reading this thread that wishes to speak badly about Americans. Yes, America is a nation with many problems. Yes, many Americans are over weight and rude. Yes, there are many bad things in this world caused by the people of America. Should we all point fingers at the Americans because of this and say you guys are bastards go f*ck yourselves? NO. The reason behind this is that there is no society on EARTH that doesnt have flaws. You can look at any given culture/nation throughout history and put them down for things they have done wrong. The truth is we are all imperfect. Imperfection is one of the only things that unites us as a race. With this said, is there ANYONE reading this that can honestly look themselves in the mirror and say that they are better then someone else they don't even know be they American or otherwise? If you can, God bless you but I think you need to take another look.

With all due respect, when your talking billions and billions of dollars being wasted, that could be going to a much better cause, you can't just say, "well everyone has thier flaws". And when your talking about people dying everyday for a poorly run war, you can't just say, "Oh well". These are serious problems that need to be spoken out against. I certainly am not telling America to go f*ck itself, I'm trying to offer my opinion as it is a democratic nation. It is perfectly fine to protest to things that you don't agree with. We, as a people, need to speak out to what we feel is right (I know very cliche right?). And no, I will not just accept America's flaws when there is so much room for improvement.

[Backglass]

This one is for $100 billion, which is around 25% of the total counter. The word "about" was used three times in four figures. Theres a lot of approximations and abouts and guesses. There not solid figures. Also, including money which isn even approved yet is kind of biased and wrong.

<sigh> OK, lets play your game. Lets take your "abouts & guesses audit" and double it. That leaves 200 billion dollars. Hell, lets say 3/4 of that number is crap. It's still $100,000,000,000,00. 100 BILLION DOLLARS and growing by MILLIONS hourly...that you cannot excuse away.

Is that any better? Do you have ANY idea how much money that is? And for what? We are no more or less safe than we were the day after 9-11. It was purely for political gain...or as it has ended up...political loss.

[Fo Sho]

This one is for $100 billion, which is around 25% of the total counter. The word "about" was used three times in four figures. Theres a lot of approximations and abouts and guesses. There not solid figures. Also, including money which isn even approved yet is kind of biased and wrong.

<sigh> OK, lets play your game. Lets take your "abouts & guesses audit" and double it. That leaves 200 billion dollars. Hell, lets say 3/4 of that number is crap. It's still $100,000,000,000,00. 100 BILLION DOLLARS and growing by MILLIONS daily.

Is that any better? Do you have ANY idea how much money that is? And for what? We are no more or less safe than we were the day after 9-11. It was purely for political gain...or as it has ended up...political loss.

No Safer? I doubt any person on Earth would argue with the fact that since Saddam Hussein is dead, not only are the people of Iraq safer but so is the rest of the world. And political gain? Bush had nothing to gain politically by going into this war. You could argue wrongly that we would get economic gain from the oil there. But politcal gain makes no sense. And yes it is a lot of money, but you are thinking from your own individual small perspective. In the grand scheme of things, and also compared to any of the previous wars we've had, this amount, while definitely not small, is also just as definitely not huge.

[flashleg8]

This one is for $100 billion, which is around 25% of the total counter. The word "about" was used three times in four figures. Theres a lot of approximations and abouts and guesses. There not solid figures. Also, including money which isn even approved yet is kind of biased and wrong.

<sigh> OK, lets play your game. Lets take your "abouts & guesses audit" and double it. That leaves 200 billion dollars. Hell, lets say 3/4 of that number is crap. It's still $100,000,000,000,00. 100 BILLION DOLLARS and growing by MILLIONS daily.

Is that any better? Do you have ANY idea how much money that is? And for what? We are no more or less safe than we were the day after 9-11. It was purely for political gain...or as it has ended up...political loss.

No Safer? I doubt any person on Earth would argue with the fact that since Saddam Hussein is dead, not only are the people of Iraq safer but so is the rest of the world. And political gain? Bush had nothing to gain politically by going into this war. You could argue wrongly that we would get economic gain from the oil there. But politcal gain makes no sense. And yes it is a lot of money, but you are thinking from your own individual small perspective. In the grand scheme of things, and also compared to any of the previous wars we've had, this amount, while definitely not small, is also just as definitely not huge.

The people of Iraq are safer?! 600,000 of them are DEAD because of this illegal war.

[NanoSpores]

i heard an interesting statistic about a month ago.. something like, if we divided all the money spent on the iraq war between the iraqi people, we could have paid every single iraqi citizen 12,000 dollars. maybe that way we could actually have a positive influence. but the industrial military complex rolls on.

[Fo Sho]

This one is for $100 billion, which is around 25% of the total counter. The word "about" was used three times in four figures. Theres a lot of approximations and abouts and guesses. There not solid figures. Also, including money which isn even approved yet is kind of biased and wrong.

<sigh> OK, lets play your game. Lets take your "abouts & guesses audit" and double it. That leaves 200 billion dollars. Hell, lets say 3/4 of that number is crap. It's still $100,000,000,000,00. 100 BILLION DOLLARS and growing by MILLIONS daily.

Is that any better? Do you have ANY idea how much money that is? And for what? We are no more or less safe than we were the day after 9-11. It was purely for political gain...or as it has ended up...political loss.

No Safer? I doubt any person on Earth would argue with the fact that since Saddam Hussein is dead, not only are the people of Iraq safer but so is the rest of the world. And political gain? Bush had nothing to gain politically by going into this war. You could argue wrongly that we would get economic gain from the oil there. But politcal gain makes no sense. And yes it is a lot of money, but you are thinking from your own individual small perspective. In the grand scheme of things, and also compared to any of the previous wars we've had, this amount, while definitely not small, is also just as definitely not huge.

The people of Iraq are safer?! 600,000 of them are DEAD because of this illegal war.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/. I don't know where you guys get your numbers. This is the CIVILIAN casualty count, from a very anti-war biased website. f*ck all the Iraqi militants and insurgents who we killed, they can all burn in hell, if you're adding them in to your statistics then you can go to hell too. And yes they are safer... Why do you then that they executed saddam hussein you fuckwit? He was carrying out an ongoing genocide. God, not only are some of you people anti-american, it seems like you are pro-terrorism. You cowards.

[Fo Sho]

The UN is weak, and indecisive. For god's sake look at what's going on in Darfur. The US and UK once again are the only countries in this world, who don't hide behind bureacracy. They wipe their hands clean of responsibility with paper pushing and a bunch of other pointless negotiations that never get anything done. Meanwhile hundreds of people are being slaughtered everyday. I could not care less that the UN did not approve of the war in Iraq.

[Titanic]

The UN is weak, and indecisive. For god's sake look at what's going on in Darfur. The US and UK once again are the only countries in this world, who don't hide behind bureacracy. They wipe their hands clean of responsibility with paper pushing and a bunch of other pointless negotiations that never get anything done. Meanwhile hundreds of people are being slaughtered everyday. I could not care less that the UN did not approve of the war in Iraq.

The UN is weak because of the USA. Guiscard has already argued this before and said why, and I dont have thet ime atm.

Fo Sho, the world and Iraq are not safer. Hundreds of people dieing every week due to car bombings? Terrorist attacks in Europe and NA? 3,000 US soldiers killed. Islamic extremism on the rise. Bad attitude from America in dealing with Iran, and its support for terrorism and nuclear power. Racist attacks up since 9/11. A lot of stereotyping against Muslims in the west. Lots of young muslim men becoming radcilised. Almost civil war in Iraq.

Is that a safer world?

[Fo Sho]

The UN is weak, and indecisive. For god's sake look at what's going on in Darfur. The US and UK once again are the only countries in this world, who don't hide behind bureacracy. They wipe their hands clean of responsibility with paper pushing and a bunch of other pointless negotiations that never get anything done. Meanwhile hundreds of people are being slaughtered everyday. I could not care less that the UN did not approve of the war in Iraq.

The UN is weak because of the USA. Guiscard has already argued this before and said why, and I dont have thet ime atm.

Fo Sho, the world and Iraq are not safer. Hundreds of people dieing every week due to car bombings? Terrorist attacks in Europe and NA? 3,000 US soldiers killed. Islamic extremism on the rise. Bad attitude from America in dealing with Iran, and its support for terrorism and nuclear power. Racist attacks up since 9/11. A lot of stereotyping against Muslims in the west. Lots of young muslim men becoming radcilised. Almost civil war in Iraq.

Is that a safer world?

Many of the things you stated above were laready going on in the world (such as Islamic extremism on the rise) before the war. And many others were in no way the fault of the US or it's allies. Many of the things you list are also direct results of 9/11. And no, the UN is not weak just because of the USA, and I'm fucking tired of you acting like it's just the USA, it is the US and the UK like it or not and I'm pretty sure you're from the UK fucktard. I'm too tired to be arguing this right now, maybe tomorrow...

[Stopper]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/. I don't know where you guys get your numbers. This is the CIVILIAN casualty count, from a very anti-war biased website. f*ck all the Iraqi militants and insurgents who we killed, they can all burn in hell, if you're adding them in to your statistics then you can go to hell too. And yes they are safer... Why do you then that they executed saddam hussein you fuckwit? He was carrying out an ongoing genocide. God, not only are some of you people anti-american, it seems like you are pro-terrorism. You cowards.

Iraq Body Count is based on media reports. Given that, for various reasons, Iraq has been extremely poorly reported on by the media over the last few years, it's not surprising that media reports add up to a huge understatement of deaths due to violence.

Flashleg's >600,000 figure comes from Lancet magazine, a highly respected medical publication. I don't have time to find a link which comprehensively explains it, but here's a newspaper report from when it came out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1892888,00.html

I'm not sure what you mean by Hussein's "ongoing genocide", but if you're referring to the approx 500,000 excess civilian deaths since the Kuwait war, then those were primarily caused by UN sanctions, which the US and the UK supported.

In short, the Iraq war didn't make the Iraqi people safer, it made life more dangerous for them. It didn't make the world safer, it made it a more dangerous place. And by the time Hussein was executed, whether he was dead or alive didn't really make much difference to anyone's safety.

The war was a complete disaster, and it has no redeeming features. Get that in your head.

[Skittles!]

This is still going on?

-Sigh-