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Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:40 am

How about we simply study history with various sources and without being blinded by religious or secular bias?


OK, I'm more than happy to do that, but how? If I'm not allowed secular bias then I'm guessing what you're saying is that I can't appeal to science or any other non-religious form of world-view. If we're not allowing religious bias then you definitely have to quit with the bible quotes. But what does that leave us? Not a lot really, all we have is "I think it happened this way", "Well you're wrong so nyerr because I think it happened that way".

So we have to allow sources, all kinds of them, including the bible. But we have to view all of those sources in context with each other. If 100 people in a room are shown a card with a number on it, and all are independently asked to give a reason why that number was on that card when they left the room, and 50 people say "the number was written on the card with a pen" and the remaining 50 people say things along the lines of "the number was written on the card with a pen because a supernatural being decided it should be so" which 50 have the stronger case to argue that every part of their reason is valid? Maybe we should take the second 50, and ask them what sort of supernatural being decided this, and we find we are given discreet and contradictory descriptions of at least 30 different entities, whose evidence holds up stronger then?

The science you decry does not exist in isolation. C12 and C14 dating does not exist outside of any of the other laws of science, it is backed up by the laws of radioactivity, the laws of atomic structure, the laws of temporal physics, and all of these laws are themselves based on other laws, all consistent with each other. It also does not claim that which it cannot show. Science does not claim to know the cause of the universe, it only claims to know what happened down to a few milliseconds after the universe started, and it admits that those first few milliseconds are a mystery which it cannot yet explain.

Religion necessarily exists in isolation. The bible is the one true word of god and only through the message of Jesus will you be saved. There are no other sources outside of biblical ones or ones which derive themselves from biblical ones which back up this view, and in fact there are many other isolated philosophies which disagree on these points, all of which claim a different truth. Science does not claim any authority over them, since they are by nature outside of it's remit. Yet followers of these isolated philosophies will often claim that their unconfirmed and unvalidated and untestable ideas about the world shouldd over-rule the constantly checked, verified and tested laws of science, which are constrained by their nature to strive for consistency between all of their different parts.

Have faith, have belief and marvel and wonder at the perfection, grace and majesty of God. Seriously, I'm not being flippant here, go forth and do it. I think it's great if something has that positive an effect on your life. I just fail to see how that gives you any claim to undermine thousands of years of dilligent and consistent research by hundreds of thousands or millions of people that have built a picture of how natural laws operate, and what we can infer from various different objective and repeatable experiments.

As for the inconsistencies, instead of posting pages from a child's book which skim very briefly over the facts and can easily be interpretted in any number of different ways, try doing some serious reading. Try "The Flood Myth" by Alan Dundes, which goes into a lot of detail about the sources and timelines around the various versions of the story. You'll come away far more educated about the similarities and differences, and far more equipped to try and use the existence of an ancient flood as evidenced by numerous oral and written traditions to justify why it had to be the Christian God that caused it.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:48 am

Lionz wrote:
crispybits wrote:
Lionz wrote:How about we simply study history with various sources and without being blinded by religious or secular bias?


OK, I'm more than happy to do that, but how? If I'm not allowed secular bias then I'm guessing what you're saying is that I can't appeal to science or any other non-religious form of world-view. If we're not allowing religious bias then you definitely have to quit with the bible quotes. But what does that leave us? Not a lot really, all we have is "I think it happened this way", "Well you're wrong so nyerr because I think it happened that way".

So we have to allow sources, all kinds of them, including the bible. But we have to view all of those sources in context with each other. If 100 people in a room are shown a card with a number on it, and all are independently asked to give a reason why that number was on that card when they left the room, and 50 people say "the number was written on the card with a pen" and the remaining 50 people say things along the lines of "the number was written on the card with a pen because a supernatural being decided it should be so" which 50 have the stronger case to argue that every part of their reason is valid? Maybe we should take the second 50, and ask them what sort of supernatural being decided this, and we find we are given discreet and contradictory descriptions of at least 30 different entities, whose evidence holds up stronger then?

The science you decry does not exist in isolation. C12 and C14 dating does not exist outside of any of the other laws of science, it is backed up by the laws of radioactivity, the laws of atomic structure, the laws of temporal physics, and all of these laws are themselves based on other laws, all consistent with each other. It also does not claim that which it cannot show. Science does not claim to know the cause of the universe, it only claims to know what happened down to a few milliseconds after the universe started, and it admits that those first few milliseconds are a mystery which it cannot yet explain.

Religion necessarily exists in isolation. The bible is the one true word of god and only through the message of Jesus will you be saved. There are no other sources outside of biblical ones or ones which derive themselves from biblical ones which back up this view, and in fact there are many other isolated philosophies which disagree on these points, all of which claim a different truth. Science does not claim any authority over them, since they are by nature outside of it's remit. Yet followers of these isolated philosophies will often claim that their unconfirmed and unvalidated and untestable ideas about the world shouldd over-rule the constantly checked, verified and tested laws of science, which are constrained by their nature to strive for consistency between all of their different parts.

Have faith, have belief and marvel and wonder at the perfection, grace and majesty of God. Seriously, I'm not being flippant here, go forth and do it. I think it's great if something has that positive an effect on your life. I just fail to see how that gives you any claim to undermine thousands of years of dilligent and consistent research by hundreds of thousands or millions of people that have built a picture of how natural laws operate, and what we can infer from various different objective and repeatable experiments.

As for the inconsistencies, instead of posting pages from a child's book which skim very briefly over the facts and can easily be interpretted in any number of different ways, try doing some serious reading. Try "The Flood Myth" by Alan Dundes, which goes into a lot of detail about the sources and timelines around the various versions of the story. You'll come away far more educated about the similarities and differences, and far more equipped to try and use the existence of an ancient flood as evidenced by numerous oral and written traditions to justify why it had to be the Christian God that caused it.


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Postby Lionz on Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:47 am

Secular, Religious, Evidence, Proof, Beauty, Love,

What can't be defined a million ways, but how about we not assume that a consciousness was or was not responsible for creating the universe if that is what we are trying to determine in the first place? And not assume there is or is not universal common descent if that is what we are trying to determine in the first place? And so on?

See what I was getting at with Neoteny? Do you think the atmosphere has had a constant C14/C12 ratio if the flood resulted in fossil fuels and the biosphere had 500 times more carbon just prior to the flood? How logical is it if we assume the flood did not occur in order for us to come up with a dating method ratio and then turn around and use the ratio as evidence against the flood having occured?

You might have stepped into the door of a church more than I have. I consider Dead Sea Scrolls stuff and Sumerian stuff and Assyrian stuff and Egyptian stuff and Greek stuff and American stuff and Hindu related stuff and more and look at the 66 as 66 seperate works depending on definition. How about we study various religious texts and at least include a serious study of stuff related to the DSS and the LXX and try to determine if Yahushua was truly prophesied about in Hebrew scripture well before the first century?

What is really that simple about your card number anology or what have you? Why not talk to each group of 50 about evidence and continue to learn and grow all the time until you know everything for sure and you know you know everything for sure? How about we discuss carbon-14 dating in detail and move on from there?

A couple pastes from an answersingenesis page found here with stuff that could be addressed in more detail? http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... -the-bible

It is assumed that the ratio of 14C to 12C in the atmosphere has always been the same as it is today (1 to 1 trillion). If this assumption is true, then the AMS 14C dating method is valid up to about 80,000 years. Beyond this number, the instruments scientists use would not be able to detect enough remaining 14C to be useful in age estimates. This is a critical assumption in the dating process. If this assumption is not true, then the method will give incorrect dates. What could cause this ratio to change? If the production rate of 14C in the atmosphere is not equal to the removal rate (mostly through decay), this ratio will change. In other words, the amount of 14C being produced in the atmosphere must equal the amount being removed to be in a steady state (also called “equilibrium”). If this is not true, the ratio of 14C to 12C is not a constant, which would make knowing the starting amount of 14C in a specimen difficult or impossible to accurately determine.

Dr. Willard Libby, the founder of the carbon-14 dating method, assumed this ratio to be constant. His reasoning was based on a belief in evolution, which assumes the earth must be billions of years old. Assumptions in the scientific community are extremely important. If the starting assumption is false, all the calculations based on that assumption might be correct but still give a wrong conclusion.

In Dr. Libby’s original work, he noted that the atmosphere did not appear to be in equilibrium. This was a troubling idea for Dr. Libby since he believed the world was billions of years old and enough time had passed to achieve equilibrium. Dr. Libby’s calculations showed that if the earth started with no 14C in the atmosphere, it would take up to 30,000 years to build up to a steady state (equilibrium).

If the cosmic radiation has remained at its present intensity for 20,000 or 30,000 years, and if the carbon reservoir has not changed appreciably in this time, then there exists at the present time a complete balance between the rate of disintegration of radiocarbon atoms and the rate of assimilation of new radiocarbon atoms for all material in the life-cycle.2

Dr. Libby chose to ignore this discrepancy (nonequilibrium state), and he attributed it to experimental error. However, the discrepancy has turned out to be very real. The ratio of 14C /12C is not constant.

The Specific Production Rate (SPR) of C-14 is known to be 18.8 atoms per gram of total carbon per minute. The Specific Decay Rate (SDR) is known to be only 16.1 disintegrations per gram per minute.3

What does this mean? If it takes about 30,000 years to reach equilibrium and 14C is still out of equilibrium, then maybe the earth is not very old.

What role might the Genesis Flood have played in the amount of carbon? The Flood would have buried large amounts of carbon from living organisms (plant and animal) to form today’s fossil fuels (coal, oil, etc.). The amount of fossil fuels indicates there must have been a vastly larger quantity of vegetation in existence prior to the Flood than exists today. This means that the biosphere just prior to the Flood might have had 500 times more carbon in living organisms than today. This would further dilute the amount of 14C and cause the 14C/12C ratio to be much smaller than today.

If that were the case, and this C-14 were distributed uniformly throughout the biosphere, and the total amount of biosphere C were, for example, 500 times that of today’s world, the resulting C-14/C-12 ratio would be 1/500 of today’s level....7

When the Flood is taken into account along with the decay of the magnetic field, it is reasonable to believe that the assumption of equilibrium is a false assumption.

Because of this false assumption, any age estimates using 14C prior to the Flood will give much older dates than the true age. Pre-Flood material would be dated at perhaps ten times the true age.
Last edited by Lionz on Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:14 am

I'm not an expert on C14 dating, so forgive me if this post goes into less detail than yours or if I display less knowledge as a starting point than you do. I'm going to try and break it down to it's basic elements, and feel free to add / remove / modify these elements if I have your position wrong anywhere.

There seem to be two different and distinct arguments:

1) C14 dating assumes a constant level of C14 in the atmosphere over the entire period in question to be accurate.
2) C14 has been shown not to be constant over time in this way

Therefore C14 dating cannot be accurate.

The second argument is:

1) C14 levels will reach equilibrium from a zero starting state over the course of approximately 30,000 years
2) C14 levels currently exist which are below that equilibrium level

Therefore the zero-point start must have been less than 30,000 years ago, and we are still building up to equilibrium point.

Before I spend any more time responding, would you say that these are the key points of your post about C14 dating above?

(I have to pop out for a few hours very soon by the way, but I promise I'm not walking away from the debate, I will be back.)
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Postby Lionz on Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:40 am

A first would have more to do with a ratio of both C12 and C14 depending on definition, but you might break things down nicely and come across as a pretty deep thinker whether we agree on everything or not. I might take long breaks from checking for replies myself and get back to you sometime later though.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:37 pm

OK, I'll amend to take that into account. Also although I state the arguments in these basic terms, I will still try and address the more detailed points in the longer post which you made.

Argument 1

1) C14 dating assumes a constant ratio of C12:C14 in the atmosphere over the entire period in question to be accurate.
2) The C12:C14 ratio has been shown not to be constant over time in this way

Therefore C14 dating cannot be accurate.


My source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

show: Calibration


So, a simplistic view, which takes only the very first principles of a very young scientific discovery in it's infancy may well claim that C14 dating is inaccurate because the first guy who started doing it was wrong about the C12:C14 ratio remaining in constant equilibrium. But that objection is frivoulous when you consider that this weaknss in the initial premises of the experiement has been considered, and with reference to other forms of radioactive dating methods, not affected either way by possible flood or other events that changed the C12:C14 ratio, a calibration scale has been developed which adjusts for this discrepancy. We can find the C12:C14 ratio at different times in history and pre-history by looking at numerous different sources (one example being drilled ice cores) and then we can use mathematical formulas to determine that the old C14 number under the flawed system should relate to a different date, and we can do so with some precision (+/-40 years in 10,000).

In effect this argument is doing the same as saying "Newtonian mechanics doesn't work at close to light speed, therefore Physics is not to be trusted". The problem with that is that science self-corrects, and if something is found to be wrong (a) it's normally science that finds it and (b) sometime after that it's normally science that solves it. Einsteinian relativity overtook Newtonian mechanics as the best known theory to counter the problem of near-light behaviour, and since then Einsteinian relativity has been amended and modified to better fit our observations, and then overtaken by other theories. Does a criticism of Newton mean Einstein was wrong?

One final note, within the first section it also mentions that the limit of C14 dating is around 80,000 years. As you will see at the bottom of my evidence is the acknowledgement that we have only been able to build calibration curves up to 50,000 years. Good scientists will not use C14 dating to date anything older than this because they know this limit exists, and they will use other forms of dating instead (i.e. the dinosaurs have never been scientifically acceptably dated by C14 as they were alive too long ago to do so, as are the crude oil reserves we now drill up to make petroleum and plastics)

Argument 2

1) C12:C14 ratios will reach equilibrium from a zero starting state over the course of approximately 30,000 years
2) C12:C14 ratios currently exist which are below that equilibrium level

Therefore the zero-point start must have been less than 30,000 years ago, and we are still building up to equilibrium point.


The evidence I want to use against this is also contained in the above wikipedia quote. As you can see even within living memory human beings have affected the C12:C14 ratio themselves. Taking a one-off reading today and claiming that if we take an entirely natural mathematical rate of decay and replenishment back to a zero point it comes out at a weird number that doesn't agree with other science is again taking too much of a simplistic view.

Even if we remove human elements from the picture, written history goes back a maximum of what? 5-6000 years if you use the very loosest definition of "written history". Oral history maybe another couple of thousand years before that? So within that 20-30,000 years there is at least half where there is no reliable human record of world events. Maybe a flood did happen. Maybe several floods happened. We know pretty big floods have happened, for a start the BlackSea used to be dry fertile farmland in a basin below sea level and only when the seas rose high enough that they breached the Bosporus Strait and started filling up that fertile basin did it become a body of water. 170,000 square miles of fertile land which in all likelihood had a lot of plant matter on it, all washed away within a short period of time. Maybe there were huge volcanic eruptions, or massive forest fires during this time, or a meteor hit the planet, or a massive solar flare irradiated the planet much more than normal. Maybe sea level rose by 1m over time, which if you look into it actually pretty drastically affects the amount of land viable for significant plant growth. All of these things would adjust that equilibrium, pushing the zero date uncertainty further into the past, where it can be affected by more and more and more of these events ad infinitum.

To try and find an analogy for this one, I walk into a garden I haven't been in for 20 years and find that the swimmimg pool, which had been empty last time I visited, is slowly filling because the hosepipe has been turned on at some time to a very slow trickle and left in there. I measure the rate of flow coming from the hosepipe, and I then measure the level of water in the pool and the dimensions of the pool. I am able, in that snapshot in time, to say that at the current rate of filling, the pool will be full in X hours. I then go away and lock myself in a cupboard for a day where I have no experience of the outside world. The next day I go and measure the pool again and find the level is different to my expectations. I measure the flow rate again and find it is identical, I measure the dimensions of the pool again and find they are identical. I bring a friend in to measure both and he confirms my measurements. Now I have 2 choices. Either the mathematical system I used to calculate the fill time is flawed, or other events and factors have affected the amount of water in the pool. I get my maths checked and that's all fine. So I have to say "some other things than the things I have accounted for are affecting the fill level".

The argument above is saying "the maths or measurements are wrong", when they have an equally dark period in their knowledge of factors affecting the C12:C14 ratio during the last 20-30,000 years as I have of the pool fill level druing my time locked in the cupboard.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to draw that line under that, feel free to keep discussing it if you want, and I'll respond to any reasonable criticisms, but it's my turn to ask a question.

What does the existence of a flood or floods, that pre-date the bible, have to do with any proof that God exists? Are you saying that because we have had large floods, and because the bible talks about a large flood, that the bible is an accurate account of how everything came to be? (and if not, what exactly are you saying with regards to floods and proof of God please - I entered the conversation on page 78ish so I know I've missed the build-up.)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:19 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote: none of his futures have a good result, and his early death is the best possible outcome.


How do you know?


i don't know. i'm saying that it's POSSIBLE for this to be the case in a "best possible universe"


And it's possible that it isn't. So.. what's your point?


they are trying to disprove the idea that this could be the best possible universe. i'm not trying to prove it, i'm just trying to show that it's possible (and maybe even likely)
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Postby Lionz on Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:52 am

Hello.

That states that the transition to a calibrated or calender date is even less precise and especially where the calibration curve flattens out. And even if the calibration curve is being continuously refined on the basis of new data gathered from tree rings and coral, what can they do to help us date preflood things if they are from after the flood and any corresponding change within the atmosphere that would have occurred from it?

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As far as ice cores, layers you would find in them are not annual and you can get separate layers on your car in a snowstorm due to snow melting during the day and re-freezing at night. Consider this. There are ice cores at the South Pole and Greenland that have a maximum depth of 10-14,000 feet or that did as of recently. An aircraft crash-landed in Greenland in 1942 and was excavated in 1990. It was under 263 feet of ice after only 48 years. All of the ice could have accumulated in 4,400 years.

Image

Are you using the pool analogy or what have you to help explain why 14C would still be out of equilibrium if it took about 30,000 years for it to reach equilibrium? You might call on unforeseen events in the past that greatly effected the atmosphere. And what would the flood be to a mainstream view of history, if not that? Where is a dating method that does not assume both a starting point and constant rate of change based on a preconceived view of what happened in the past?

A global flood would not prove a Creator of the universe existed. I got back into this thread on page 70 after Pirlo questioning if evolutionism necessarily opposed creationism. Radiometric dating systems and the flood naturally came up. viewtopic.php?p=3639671#p3639671

There's much against me trying to convince anyone of what I believe. To believe it would be rejecting a general worldview of what occurred that's basically held by all public education systems and mainstream media as a whole.

But if Luke 4:5-6 and Psalm 2:1-3 ARE true and we're told in Luke 4:5-6 that power and glory of all kingdoms of earth was delivered to the devil and Psalm 2:1-3 claims that nations conspire and people imagine vain things as the result of kings and honorable people consulting with one another against YHWH and Christ, then we should expect mainstream media and public education systems to attack history according to the Old Testament in the first place. Now is there any evidence for a worldwide conspiracy focused on leading people towards being secular and rejecting Him that's not simple verses of scripture?

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http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin ... o+seclorum

There's symbolism associated with Egypt and freemasonry right on U.S. one dollar bills next to Latin that means Declaration of the Beginning of a New Secular World Order or something similar to that. Freemasonry is called the Craft, it has a degree system, and it's associated with goat images and upside down stars in pentagons. It shouldn't be hard to find similarities between it and witchcraft whether things are coincidences or not. I don't remember being taught a thing about it at any point in elementary through high school despite kings and U.S. presidents and congressmen and many other very famous people being members.

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And what is limited to freemasonry? How about look into Bohemian Grove and Skull and Bones and more if Bush and Kerry were essentially the two choices of a recent presidential election as Skull and Bones brothers who graduated from Yale only two years apart? What if Luke 4:5-6 and Psalm 2:1-3 are true and there are powerful humans and non-humans behind scenes with alot of motivation to get people to reject truth?

“Only small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity.” - Marshall McLuhan media ‘guru’.

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."
- Benjamin Disraeli, first Prime Minister of England, in a novel he published in 1844 called Coningsby, the New Generation

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
- Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom (1913)


If the devil is make believe and has never influenced politics and education and media, then I am making moot points. But if he does exist, should we not expect for a misleading account of history to be promoted in schools and mainstream media on a regular basis?

The same disclaimer note or whatever applies here.
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Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:52 am

Lionz wrote:Hello.

That states that the transition to a calibrated or calender date is even less precise and especially where the calibration curve flattens out. And even if the calibration curve is being continuously refined on the basis of new data gathered from tree rings and coral, what can they do to help us date preflood things if they are from after the flood and any corresponding change within the atmosphere that would have occurred from it?

Image

Image

Image

As far as ice cores, layers you would find in them are not annual and you can get separate layers on your car in a snowstorm due to snow melting during the day and re-freezing at night. Consider this. There are ice cores at the South Pole and Greenland that have a maximum depth of 10-14,000 feet or that did as of recently. An aircraft crash-landed in Greenland in 1942 and was excavated in 1990. It was under 263 feet of ice after only 48 years. All of the ice could have accumulated in 4,400 years.

Image

Are you using the pool analogy or what have you to help explain why 14C would still be out of equilibrium if it took about 30,000 years for it to reach equilibrium? You might call on unforeseen events in the past that greatly effected the atmosphere. And what would the flood be to a mainstream view of history, if not that? Where is a dating method that does not assume both a starting point and constant rate of change based on a preconceived view of what happened in the past?

A global flood would not prove a Creator of the universe existed. I got back into this thread on page 70 after Pirlo questioning if evolutionism necessarily opposed creationism. Radiometric dating systems and the flood naturally came up. viewtopic.php?p=3639671#p3639671

There's much against me trying to convince anyone of what I believe. To believe it would be rejecting a general worldview of what occurred that's basically held by all public education systems and mainstream media as a whole.

But if Luke 4:5-6 and Psalm 2:1-3 ARE true and we're told in Luke 4:5-6 that power and glory of all kingdoms of earth was delivered to the devil and Psalm 2:1-3 claims that nations conspire and people imagine vain things as the result of kings and honorable people consulting with one another against YHWH and Christ, then we should expect mainstream media and public education systems to attack history according to the Old Testament in the first place. Now is there any evidence for a worldwide conspiracy focused on leading people towards being secular and rejecting Him that's not simple verses of scripture?

Image

Image

http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin ... o+seclorum

There's symbolism associated with Egypt and freemasonry right on U.S. one dollar bills next to Latin that means Declaration of the Beginning of a New Secular World Order or something similar to that. Freemasonry is called the Craft, it has a degree system, and it's associated with goat images and upside down stars in pentagons. It shouldn't be hard to find similarities between it and witchcraft whether things are coincidences or not. I don't remember being taught a thing about it at any point in elementary through high school despite kings and U.S. presidents and congressmen and many other very famous people being members.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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And what is limited to freemasonry? How about look into Bohemian Grove and Skull and Bones and more if Bush and Kerry were essentially the two choices of a recent presidential election as Skull and Bones brothers who graduated from Yale only two years apart? What if Luke 4:5-6 and Psalm 2:1-3 are true and there are powerful humans and non-humans behind scenes with alot of motivation to get people to reject truth?

“Only small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity.” - Marshall McLuhan media ‘guru’.

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."
- Benjamin Disraeli, first Prime Minister of England, in a novel he published in 1844 called Coningsby, the New Generation

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
- Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom (1913)


If the devil is make believe and has never influenced politics and education and media, then I am making moot points. But if he does exist, should we not expect for a misleading account of history to be promoted in schools and mainstream media on a regular basis?

The same disclaimer note or whatever applies here.



"Disclaimer: All of the above is a load of shit which the poster believes for irrational reasons, of which he/she is unable to be consciously aware."


That one?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:30 am

That states that the transition to a calibrated or calender date is even less precise and especially where the calibration curve flattens out. And even if the calibration curve is being continuously refined on the basis of new data gathered from tree rings and coral, what can they do to help us date preflood things if they are from after the flood and any corresponding change within the atmosphere that would have occurred from it?


C14 dating does not presume to cast any doubt on the flood. It takes into account everything we can find, from every source, about the age of things, and incorporates that into it's own theories to better calibrate it's own systems. It does not exist in isolation, and new discoveries based on all of the other scientific fields which have relevance to C14 calibration, by the very nature of scientific method, have to be considered when we continually try to improve that calibration.

Do you believe that the devil could build an explanation for the entire natural laws, with the agenda that we want to discount real evidence of something, and that ALL scientists from all over the world in every culture could repeat the experiments, that all of those scientists could question the validity of any assumptions within those experiments, and that system could be found to be consistent within certain admitted uncertainty margins (necessary more due to the nature of experimentation and inaccuracy of measurements within a few percent in either direction depending on the equipment used)? Science holds itself up to the light, it says what the assumptions are, it says what the measurements are and it shows that the conclusion fits those assumptions and measurments. A christian scientist (a scientist who is christian rather than a follower of that particular movement) or an atheist scientist or a muslim scientist or a hindu scientist all operate on the same rules in this respect. That's exactly how it was found that C14 is not in equilibrium, and how we then came to use measurement from other scientific fields and recorded history to make the measurements fit reality more accurately.

As far as ice cores, layers you would find in them are not annual and you can get separate layers on your car in a snowstorm due to snow melting during the day and re-freezing at night. Consider this. There are ice cores at the South Pole and Greenland that have a maximum depth of 10-14,000 feet or that did as of recently. An aircraft crash-landed in Greenland in 1942 and was excavated in 1990. It was under 263 feet of ice after only 48 years. All of the ice could have accumulated in 4,400 years.


Again, this is a very simplistic argument that does not account for ALL of what science says. I won't spend too long on it, but just consider that as more and more layers are added on top, and more and more time passes, the bottom layers will be compressed and so the depth of a 1 year layer of ice sitting on top under no compression will be different to the depth of a 1 year layer of ice at the bottom. It also does not take into account that measurements about climate change over time, so that during some periods 263 feet of ice will accumulate in 48 years, and during other, drier periods maybe only 180 feet of ice will accumulate, and during wetter times maybe 450 feet of ice accumulates. By referencing what we know from other fields of study we can pretty accurately say that if you want to find an ice sample that was on the surface 10,000 years ago you need to go to somewhere between X depth and Y depth. You can then add in evidence about, for instance, large volcanic eruptions which would have trapped layers of dust in those ice layers (a notable one of these happened about 6,500-7,500 years ago (can't remember the exact figure) in Indonesia and the volcanic winter caused in Africa is thought to be the cause of humans migrating into the middle east)

Are you using the pool analogy or what have you to help explain why 14C would still be out of equilibrium if it took about 30,000 years for it to reach equilibrium? You might call on unforeseen events in the past that greatly effected the atmosphere. And what would the flood be to a mainstream view of history, if not that? Where is a dating method that does not assume both a starting point and constant rate of change based on a preconceived view of what happened in the past?


I'm saying that the theory that the earth is under 20-30,000 years old is assuming that only slow natural forces, with no remarkable events, have affected the C14 ratio since it started from a zero point. This is one claim I really don't understand when it comes from the same standpoint that then says "a really big flood happened". Either the accumulation and decay rates are building up naturally from a zero point with no remarkable events and a known rate of chage, and a clean and tidy straight line can be drawn back to 0 on the graph at the 20-30,000 year point, or floods etc have happened, and that line won't be straight, but will actually wobble around a great deal and could feasibly get back to the 0 point at any time you want to name depending on which events and how many you consider.

Besides which, since the assumptions of the very first person to find C14 dating methods were found to be false, even C14 dating methods do not do what you ask, in that they do not assume both a starting point and constant rate of change based on a preconceived view of what happened in the past. They assume that we know what the C14 ratio is today, and we know how various different things affect the C14 ratio because of other measurements taken of it in different places at different times and also in laboratories after, say, bombarding a sample with a known amount of extra radiation and then re-measuring it. We know of historical events and we try and factor them in as best we can, and we also look for independent verification from other scientific fields as to what the C14 ratio was at different times over the last 50,000 years. When those disagree with what our preconceptions are we don't just ignore them, but we build them into modifications in the calibration curve in a constant process to make it more and more accurate.

There's much against me trying to convince anyone of what I believe. To believe it would be rejecting a general worldview of what occurred that's basically held by all public education systems and mainstream media as a whole.


Not quite, to believe it would be rejecting a world view, consistently backed up by continuous measurement, and which in it's very nature allows anyone to question any assumption made. Science does not say "because we say so", it says "we think this is true based on thousands of measurements, but if someone comes up with a new theory or assumption that fits all of the evidence better we are bound by our own rules to modify our assumptions". Compare that to a book (and that could be the bible, the torah, the qu'ran or any other scriptural source from any religion) that says "this is right because we said so, and any theories that fit the world better are wrong because the devil got in there somehow and changed things to be exactly consistent with his great lie"

As for all the stuff about freemasonry, did they also influnce Chinese scientists from before Christ was born, who were already doing some fairly complex science, and whose measurements and theories have been recorded and which we have access to? Did they also influence middle-eastern scientists, again from pre-Christian times, that did experiments and recorded their observations, some of which have survived to the present day (and those people were the ones who came up with our modern understanding of mathematical systems for a large part)? Did they influence both the ancient egyptians and native south americans, who we can observe were using a lot of the same scientific assumptions and principles when doing things like building pyramids, despite there being shown to be a very low (effectively zero) probability of any contact between those two cultures?

What is more likely, that every single person, including devout christians, can make independent measurments to confirm or deny science's claims at any time, and can question it's assumptions, and that the devil can deceive and mislead every single one of them every time in a totally consistent way to build up a fake system as detailed and complex as our understanding of natural law, or that our understanding of natural law is the best explanation we have of the truth about empirical matters, and the scriptural books, which exist in isolation and do not offer any independent confirmation, or indeed any way for independent confirmation to even be possible, are parables and metaphors, which can still contain potentially great moral and spiritual guidance, but are not reliable or verifiable accounts of empirical facts such as the age of the earth or whatever?

Also effectively if the devil has made the flawed explanation for natural law to be entirely consistent with every experiment in every field of science, then isn't that effectively the same thing as it being natural law anyway. If he made a system that consistently explains and predicts everything we can measure, then the devil's system IS natural law by definition. Except that God was the one who (allegedly) made the universe. Wouldn't it be an equally likely thing under your belief that the devil is the good one who made everything, and God was the evil thing that succeeded in his PR efforts a lot better (he is after all, not bound by the rules like the good guy would be and is able to lie and deceive to win more followers) and now uses his propaganda to twist and turn people from the truth, and stir hatred amongst men, and sow the seeds of our destruction? Given the levels of religious intolerance over the centuries that seems to me, if anything, a more likely proposition than that scripture comes from the all loving good guy.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby heavycola on Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:38 am

Now is there any evidence for a worldwide conspiracy focused on leading people towards being secular and rejecting Him that's not simple verses of scripture?


Thank you for posting this. It's fantastic that such bravery still exists in the face of the satanic shapeshifting reptilians who REALLY control everything.

If you're still here tomorrow dude, and havent been abudcted and sent to one of their slave pens deep beneath the Rockies, then you might be interested in this: Denver International Airport is the NWO's base of operations. THEY DO NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW THIS.

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Image - it's a SWASTIKA.

Here is a searing, no-holds-barred conversation between a fearless truth-seeker like yourself, and a NWO representative. Burn after reading.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:09 am

Lionz (or any other theist reading) do a quick thought experiement for me please (and humour me here, just do it and tell me honestly where it leads you)

You are in a room. On the wall in front of you is an incredibly complicated riddle, far more complicated than you would ever be abele to solve based on your human reasoning alone. Behind you is a door, and the end of the experiment will happen when you walk up to the door and state your answer to the riddle. At that point, the door will open and you will either emerge into a world of peace and happiness and love if your answer is correct, or a world of violence and hatred and despair if it isn't. You will be consigned to live in that world for eternity.

On each the walls to the left and right of you are a narrow slit and a microphone. You can go up to either microphone and ask any question you like, and out of the slit will come a piece of paper with the answer printed on it. But here's the catch, one side is controlled by the good guy, who always tells the truth and wants you to go to the happy world, and the other is controlled by the bad guy, who can tell the truth or lie as he chooses and wants you to go to the nasty place.

So, you set to work, and you ask lots of different questions of both sides of the room, and slowly build your understanding of things and work your way towards a solution for the riddle. While you are doing so you keep the two sets of answers separate, as obviously one cannot be trusted and you don't want to be misled.

As you progress you notice something about the two sets of answers. One is entirely consistent whatever the form of question you ask, and predicts results of you doing various experiments on the riddle, but says "based on the other questions you have asked so far you have no way to work that out yet" a fair bit, and only once you've established other principles about the riddle can you go back and ask again and get a proper answer. The other is not so consistent, and answers a lot of the "why does X mean Y" type questions with "it just does, trust me". It gives out answers that do not agree between themselves, and if you question these inconsistencies it says "you don't understand" but offers no convincing explanation for them, even if you ask in multiple different ways at various different times.

Which one will you trust as the side which is giving you the correct information to trust your eternal life to? Which set of knowledge will you bet your soul on? Which side of the room will you base your reasoning on?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:18 am

crispybits wrote:
So we have to allow sources, all kinds of them, including the bible. But we have to view all of those sources in context with each other. If 100 people in a room are shown a card with a number on it, and all are independently asked to give a reason why that number was on that card when they left the room, and 50 people say "the number was written on the card with a pen" and the remaining 50 people say things along the lines of "the number was written on the card with a pen because a supernatural being decided it should be so" which 50 have the stronger case to argue that every part of their reason is valid? Maybe we should take the second 50, and ask them what sort of supernatural being decided this, and we find we are given discreet and contradictory descriptions of at least 30 different entities, whose evidence holds up stronger then?
.

Your basic example shows a removal from the ideas of scientific proof. You cannot prove or disprove why the pen wrote the words on the card.. and the question was not even asked. That is the real problem with these debates.

You ask a simple question, to which religious and secular individuals would each give the same answer (the 50 was written in pen... assuming it was, of course and not printed or in pencil, etc.). BUT then you make a claim that a religous person would add in "God", and imply the secular person would offer no reason at all. God does not even come into question in the above. Even if you were to ask "why", religious individuals would most likely start with the secular type answer "someone wanted ot make this test" or whatever.

Frot he most part, religion only comes into play when there is no direct secular answer. BUT.. my point has always been that there being a direct secular answer is not proof of no God or any such thing.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:30 am

You're over-simplifying / over-literalising the analogy. In any instance where we ask "why did this happen" we can keep going to the cause and say "and why did that happen", and then "and why did that happen" and so on and so on and so on. Eventually the religious person will say "because God did it" and the secular person will say "no answer / don't know". That was what the analogy was designed to illustrate.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:20 pm

Suppose the room is really comfortable. Do I have to do any work, and finally answer the question? Or can I just sit there, watch TV, download some music, and do my thing for the next 50 years?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:33 pm

Apparently not, if you die before you answer the question you'll be assumed to have answered it wrong and go to the unhappy place.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:49 pm

Why can't there be individual floods that caused flood stories? Lets think about this if at this point in time 80% of the world's population lives near water then there would be a high chance of localized flooding and not a mass flood. Also, what is the best solution to a flood, build a boat. No shit Sherlock on that one.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:41 pm

Actually the best bet in a flood is to climb a hill, if you risk it on a boat you could get washed out somewhere, but that's just me being pedantic ;)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:54 pm

Climbing a hill doesn't make for good drama.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:00 pm

depends how dramatic the hill is
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:30 pm

That's true. We could use special effects, mention wind and falling boulders, but maybe it's a first-mover advantage problem. The boat story came first and is so cool that any other story--even with hurricane wind and falling boulders--just ain't cool enough.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:37 pm

I plan on getting gills like Costner
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:41 pm

You can't spell "girls".
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:44 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:You can't spell "girls".


What good would girls be in a flood? They don't make good boats...trust me.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Neoteny on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:09 pm

john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote: none of his futures have a good result, and his early death is the best possible outcome.


How do you know?


i don't know. i'm saying that it's POSSIBLE for this to be the case in a "best possible universe"


And it's possible that it isn't. So.. what's your point?


they are trying to disprove the idea that this could be the best possible universe. i'm not trying to prove it, i'm just trying to show that it's possible (and maybe even likely)


No I'm not. I've already mentioned I think this is the "best" by some sense of the word. I'm saying it's not the best from the perspective of the stereotypeomnipotent, omniscient, omniloving creator god. Those three traits together do not, in my mind, follow from my observations of this universe.
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