Non AMERICAN thoughts and ideas thread.

[saxitoxin]

Al Queda was only trying to liberate themselves from the boot of US tyranny when 911 occurred.

As a former DDR citizen I'm an atheist and consider insurrections inspired by affiliations with Pro-Supernatural groups, like religions, to be terrorist acts, so can't agree with your statement here.

However, it sounds like Canadians hold a different opinion from me, notyou2. Feel free to discuss!

Thanks, notyou2!
- STX

[saxitoxin]

His allegations still have no bearing on how terrible the DDR life was. Even if the West had a few people fleeing from the West, MOST of the people fleeing were moving to the West from the DDR. Certainly, life in the DDR was worse for most, while life in the West was bad for very very few.

Not sure where you got this info, BBS. Was it from the romantic-comedy film about the DDR you cited earlier to support your position? All I have is first-hand experience, published academic texts and news reports from impartial, professional journalists about which to go by; I guess we'll have to agree to disagree!

Thanks, BBS!
- STX

[jefjef]

Who's moderating this? Why are the "AMERICAN" thoughts not moved or deleted?

It's my thread. I created it for our neighbors who didn't have one of their own.

It's kind of like if I loan you a pair of my boxer briefs. If I want to put a stain in it I can.

Now please stay on topic.

[saxitoxin]

Hey gang, Saxi wrapped this up elsewhere so we can go ahead and move discussion to a different topic now.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113050&p=2516218#p2516218

Now Woodruff and Sax are even and poor ol' Saxi only has 2 more enemies left to tick-off on his list from his 6-er. Gonna be outta town next week, though, so we'll hafta wait awhile since I'll be off-boards for a bit.

Thanks, gang, for helping me out with this one! Apologies to BBS, Johnny Rockets, notyou2 and anyone else who got dragged in as props. You're troopers, gang!

Thanks again, troops!
- STX

[2dimes]

Who's moderating this? Why are the "AMERICAN" thoughts not moved or deleted?

It's my thread. I created it for our neighbors who didn't have one of their own.

It's kind of like if I loan you a pair of my boxer briefs. If I want to put a stain in it I can.

Now please stay on topic.

I was on topic. I said the thing about walking 15 blocks and someone added American thoughts in response. I got sad.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey gang, Saxi wrapped this up elsewhere so we can go ahead and move discussion to a different topic now.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113050&p=2516218#p2516218

Now Woodruff and Sax are even and poor ol' Saxi only has 2 more enemies left to tick-off on his list from his 6-er. Gonna be outta town next week, though, so we'll hafta wait awhile since I'll be off-boards for a bit.

Thanks, gang, for helping me out with this one! Apologies to BBS, Johnny Rockets, notyou2 and anyone else who got dragged in as props. You're troopers, gang!

Thanks again, troops!
- STX

Good day, sir.

[ahunda]

His allegations still have no bearing on how terrible the DDR life was. Even if the West had a few people fleeing from the West, MOST of the people fleeing were moving to the West from the DDR. Certainly, life in the DDR was worse for most, while life in the West was bad for very very few.

I don´t want to spoil saxis fun by getting all too serious here, but in the last German elections "Die Linke" (the party, that originated partly in the old SED of the GDR and is the closest to a socialist party in Germany today) won in 2 of 5 East German "Bundesländern" (comparable probably to the states in USA) and came second in the remaining 3. Taken altogether, they probably are the strongest political party in the former GDR today. Now what does that tell you ?

[Johnny Rockets]

The Front de Libération du Québec ("Quebec Liberation Front", commonly known as the FLQ) was a left-wing nationalist and socialist paramilitary group in Quebec, Canada, active between 1963 and 1970, which is widely regarded as a terrorist organization.[2][3] It was responsible for over 160 violent incidents which killed eight people and injured many more, including the bombing of the Montreal Stock Exchange in 1969.[3][4] These attacks culminated in 1970 with what is known as the October Crisis, in which British Trade Commissioner James Cross was kidnapped and Quebec Labour Minister Pierre Laporte was murdered. Founded in the early 1960s, it supported the Quebec sovereignty movement.

FLQ members practised propaganda of the deed and issued declarations that called for a socialist insurrection against oppressors identified with "Anglo-Saxon" imperialism,[1] the overthrow of the Quebec government, the independence of Quebec from Canada and the establishment of a French-speaking Quebecer "workers' society". The organization was also influenced by other movements, such as those for the independence of former colonies such as Algeria, Vietnam and Cuba.

Bombings and murder.
Support for these mislabeled "freedom fighters" is inappropriate as best.
For you to make a joke of it is on the same level of moral bankruptcy as justifying the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

Your passive aggressive trolling style that's wrapped in a blanket of egalitarianism and biased perspective is no more disruptive and annoying as some lame ass flooding posts and game chats with profanity.

"Having a little civilized chat" on the way you view and justify the actions of those who blatantly killed and bombed without regards to the safety of society is disgusting.

I agree on any self imposed ban you may wish to crucify yourself with just to get your insidious flavor of hate propaganda off these posts.

Your shtick is played out, Saxi. This was not funny.

Johnny Rockets

[saxitoxin]

His allegations still have no bearing on how terrible the DDR life was. Even if the West had a few people fleeing from the West, MOST of the people fleeing were moving to the West from the DDR. Certainly, life in the DDR was worse for most, while life in the West was bad for very very few.

I don´t want to spoil saxis fun by getting all too serious here, but in the last German elections "Die Linke" (the party, that originated partly in the old SED of the GDR and is the closest to a socialist party in Germany today) won in 2 of 5 East German "Bundesländern" (comparable probably to the states in USA) and came second in the remaining 3. Taken altogether, they probably are the strongest political party in the former GDR today. Now what does that tell you ?

You're not ruining anything; it's even true that polls regularly show between 20%-50% of East Germans say they prefered the DDR to Federal Republic. When one considers that 1/4 of the population of the East wan't even old enough to remember the DDR - and a further percentage are emigres from the West - that's nothing but remarkable and becomes a rather dismissive wave-of-the-hand to those who would say the DDR was not paradise-on-earth on the basis of some romantic comedy they watched.

But I'm glad to take any position that's convenient to grind the axes I need ground; this one just happens to coincide with the truth.

[saxitoxin]

called for a socialist

Great! The FLQ's platform is essentially identical (less the linguistic component) as the NDP. Is the NDP a terrorist group, too?

JR - lemme guess, you would like to see every party outlawed as "terrorists" except the Conservative Party of Canada, then have them renamed something a bit more assertive like "the Canadian Iron Guard" or "the Order of the White Fist" or "the Maple Leaf Vanguard Party" or something, eh?

the independence of Quebec from Canada

Right on! (15% of the House of Commons supports the same thing; should the chambers of Parliament be broken down by black-clad RCMP's and those elected deputies dragged off for firing squads, is that what you're saying, JR?)

and the establishment of a French-speaking Quebecer "workers' society".

Lovin' it! (BTW - it's Quebecois ... Quebecer is a pejorative, like the "N" word)

The organization was also influenced by other movements, such as those for the independence of former colonies such as Algeria, Vietnam and Cuba.

Hmmm ... I'm not really keen on the idea of the white man coming into a foreign country, shooting all the locals up, strip-mining their resources and planting their flag so not sure how associating with those who oppose that is bad? Canadians have a history of galumphing off to do the beck 'n call of of Big Daddy Britain, though, so I understand you may be mentally acclimated to seeing anyone opposing colonialism as "evil."

BTW - who was the Canadian Airborne Regiment influenced by in Somalia in the early '90's when they were caught using the locals as target practice? Sounds rather dreadful, gang!

Support for these mislabeled "freedom fighters" is inappropriate as best.
For you to make a joke of it is on the same level of moral bankruptcy as justifying the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

The FLQ is "guilty" in the death of 1 person as part of a liberation action. You have come out in support of Al Qaeda, a pro-supernatural group, taking on the United States, whom you've made abundantly clear you hate. Does that make you 3,000 times worse than poor ol' Saxi? ACK, gang! Say it ain't so! Johnny Rockets would never do it, gang!

[BigBallinStalin]

His allegations still have no bearing on how terrible the DDR life was. Even if the West had a few people fleeing from the West, MOST of the people fleeing were moving to the West from the DDR. Certainly, life in the DDR was worse for most, while life in the West was bad for very very few.

I don´t want to spoil saxis fun by getting all too serious here, but in the last German elections "Die Linke" (the party, that originated partly in the old SED of the GDR and is the closest to a socialist party in Germany today) won in 2 of 5 East German "Bundesländern" (comparable probably to the states in USA) and came second in the remaining 3. Taken altogether, they probably are the strongest political party in the former GDR today. Now what does that tell you ?

They got a lot of brainwashed fanatics?

[BigBallinStalin]

His allegations still have no bearing on how terrible the DDR life was. Even if the West had a few people fleeing from the West, MOST of the people fleeing were moving to the West from the DDR. Certainly, life in the DDR was worse for most, while life in the West was bad for very very few.

I don´t want to spoil saxis fun by getting all too serious here, but in the last German elections "Die Linke" (the party, that originated partly in the old SED of the GDR and is the closest to a socialist party in Germany today) won in 2 of 5 East German "Bundesländern" (comparable probably to the states in USA) and came second in the remaining 3. Taken altogether, they probably are the strongest political party in the former GDR today. Now what does that tell you ?

You're not ruining anything; it's even true that polls regularly show between 20%-50% of East Germans say they prefered the DDR to Federal Republic. When one considers that 1/4 of the population of the East wan't even old enough to remember the DDR - and a further percentage are emigres from the West - that's nothing but remarkable and becomes a rather dismissive wave-of-the-hand to those who would say the DDR was not paradise-on-earth on the basis of some romantic comedy they watched.

But I'm glad to take any position that's convenient to grind the axes I need ground; this one just happens to coincide with the truth.

20%-50%? Varies too much to support what you're saying.

[ahunda]

His allegations still have no bearing on how terrible the DDR life was. Even if the West had a few people fleeing from the West, MOST of the people fleeing were moving to the West from the DDR. Certainly, life in the DDR was worse for most, while life in the West was bad for very very few.

I don´t want to spoil saxis fun by getting all too serious here, but in the last German elections "Die Linke" (the party, that originated partly in the old SED of the GDR and is the closest to a socialist party in Germany today) won in 2 of 5 East German "Bundesländern" (comparable probably to the states in USA) and came second in the remaining 3. Taken altogether, they probably are the strongest political party in the former GDR today. Now what does that tell you ?

They got a lot of brainwashed fanatics?

Haha, I half expected that kind of response. It´s the same knee-jerk reaction, that you get from West German politicians & media, when confronted with these facts.

The East Germans have been accused of being ungrateful & unappreciative of the freedom, that capitalism brought them. Of being nostalgic & blocking out the many bad things about the former GDR system. Of being unable to adjust to the new system, that requires people to take responsibility themselves. And so on, and so on.

I remember one conservative politician going so far as to basically calling them stupid and doubting, if they were fit to vote in a "free democratic country". That´s what it basically comes down to, what you & all these guys are saying: That these people are too stupid to evaluate their own life experiences & decide for themselves, what is good for them / how they prefer to live.

If we hold back on judgements for a moment, the simple fact is: A huge percentage of those old enough to have lived under both the old GDR system & the "new" system for almost 20 years now, obviously don´t share your simple black-and-white perception of the world, where life in the GDR was simply "terrible" and/or "worse for most".

You can either accept this fact & re-consider your position (after all, these people have first-hand experience, what they are actually talking about), or you must indeed denounce them all as stupid. Question being, how much brain-washing has been going on on your side then ...

I have spoken with quite a few East Germans and found, they were not stupid at all. As a matter of fact, they were holding rather differentiated & reflected points of view.

They had not forgotten about the down-sides of life in the GDR. They remembered the Stasi, the state propaganda & censorship, the travel limitations and all kinds of problems. They did not claim, the GDR had been a paradise. They did however think, that in many regards life had been better then than today, under the new system.

Back then everybody, who wanted to work, had work. And the work itself (working conditions, atmosphere, etc.) was better than today too, where people are toiling away for minimum wages (barely making ends meet) and take all kind of shit & abuse, because they are afraid to lose their job, if they speak up.

Back then everybody had housing, food, access to education & health care. They did not have much of the great stuff, that they could see on Western TV all the time, but looking back they realised, that they actually had all they really needed.

I am sure, most of these people don´t want to go back to the very same GDR system, that they have seen. They would prefer a life without constant state control. And yet, they think "many things were better back then".

[Johnny Rockets]

called for a socialist

Great! The FLQ's platform is essentially identical (less the linguistic component) as the NDP. Is the NDP a terrorist group, too?

That's like comparing the Taliban to Catholics. I won't even rebut a comment so devoid of substance that my morning stool could have posted it.

JR - lemme guess, you would like to see every party outlawed as "terrorists" except the Conservative Party of Canada, then have them renamed something a bit more assertive like "the Canadian Iron Guard" or "the Order of the White Fist" or "the Maple Leaf Vanguard Party" or something, eh?

No you can't guess. Guessing requires an amount of logical analysis and decision making. You have proven countless times you lack both abilities. Last federal election I voted for the Green Party, FYI.

the independence of Quebec from Canada

Right on! (15% of the House of Commons supports the same thing; should the chambers of Parliament be broken down by black-clad RCMP's and those elected deputies dragged off for firing squads, is that what you're saying, JR?)

You mean the Block Quebecois? In any other country these guys would be shot for treason. Here we just let them fall on thier political faces. One of the many reasons I love living in Canada. I don't live in a society that spurs me to jump to violent solutions.

and the establishment of a French-speaking Quebecer "workers' society".

Lovin' it! (BTW - it's Quebecois ... Quebecer is a pejorative, like the "N" word)

Bullshit. Quebecer is the English version of Quebecios. Same word, no pejorative. It's used in our society and in our media all the time. YOU KNOW NOTHING!

The organization was also influenced by other movements, such as those for the independence of former colonies such as Algeria, Vietnam and Cuba.

Hmmm ... I'm not really keen on the idea of the white man coming into a foreign country, shooting all the locals up, strip-mining their resources and planting their flag so not sure how associating with those who oppose that is bad? Canadians have a history of galumphing off to do the beck 'n call of of Big Daddy Britain, though, so I understand you may be mentally acclimated to seeing anyone opposing colonialism as "evil."

Way to take a descriptive sentence from my post and again tangent if off to never never land to get away from the truth that you glorified and excused the action of a grou of thugs and killers. Oh and does beck and call cover WW1 and WW2? Before your asses got into the game I might add?

BTW - who was the Canadian Airborne Regiment influenced by in Somalia in the early '90's when they were caught using the locals as target practice? Sounds rather dreadful, gang!

As dreadful as My Lai?

Support for these mislabeled "freedom fighters" is inappropriate as best.
For you to make a joke of it is on the same level of moral bankruptcy as justifying the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

The FLQ is "guilty" in the death of 1 person as part of a liberation action.

Where do I fucking start?

# 1963-1969 - FLQ starts bombing at the average rate of one every ten days. Targets included English owned businesses, banks, McGill University and the homes of prominent English speakers.
# 1963 - Montreal - FLQ bombing of Canadian Army Recruiting Center, killing Sgt. Wilfred V. O'neil.
# May 18, 1966 - Paul Joseph Chartier's attempt to bomb the House of Commons fails when the device goes off prematurely in a Centre Block washroom.
# late 1960s - the Front de Libération du Québec (FLQ) placed a bomb in a window well of the National Defence Headquarters on Lisgar St in Ottawa, Ontario. The explosion killed a cleaning lady.
# late 1960s - the FLQ placed a bomb in a mailbox next to the Canadian Tire store on Wellington St in Ottawa, Ontario.
# February 13, 1969 - the FLQ set off a powerful bomb that ripped through the Montreal Stock Exchange causing massive destruction and seriously injuring twenty-seven people.
# October 5, 1970 - British diplomat James Cross and October 10 Quebec Minister of Labour Pierre Laporte are kidnapped by the FLQ in Montreal. (The dead body of Pierre Laporte was discovered in the trunk of a car in Montreal, Quebec on October 17, 1970; Cross was released on December 3, 1970.)
# April 20, 1995 - Roger Charles Bell places a bomb outside Province House, the Prince Edward Island legislature, injuring one
# 2000 - The Brigade d'autodéfense du français bombs a church where a english fundraiser was to be held.
# 2001 - Quebec - The FLQ/The Brigade d'autodéfense du français firebombs three "Second Cup" locations in Montreal. They were targeted because of the company's use of its incorporated English name "Second Cup". Rhéal Mathieu, a previously convicted FLQ terrorist was convicted for all three bombings. Seven McDonald's restaurants were also firebombed.

You have come out in support of Al Qaeda, a pro-supernatural group, taking on the United States, whom you've made abundantly clear you hate.

No I did Not. And no I don't. Put the cap back on the markers, and stop eating glue.



Does that make you 3,000 times worse than poor ol' Saxi? ACK, gang! Say it ain't so! Johnny Rockets would never do it, gang!

You truly needed much more attention that mommy gave you as a child.

JRockets

[saxitoxin]

called for a socialist

Great! The FLQ's platform is essentially identical (less the linguistic component) as the NDP. Is the NDP a terrorist group, too?

That's like comparing the Taliban to Catholics. I won't even rebut a comment so devoid of substance that my morning stool could have posted it.

JR - lemme guess, you would like to see every party outlawed as "terrorists" except the Conservative Party of Canada, then have them renamed something a bit more assertive like "the Canadian Iron Guard" or "the Order of the White Fist" or "the Maple Leaf Vanguard Party" or something, eh?

No you can't guess. Guessing requires an amount of logical analysis and decision making. You have proven countless times you lack both abilities. Last federal election I voted for the Green Party, FYI.

the independence of Quebec from Canada

Right on! (15% of the House of Commons supports the same thing; should the chambers of Parliament be broken down by black-clad RCMP's and those elected deputies dragged off for firing squads, is that what you're saying, JR?)

You mean the Block Quebecois? In any other country these guys would be shot for treason. Here we just let them fall on thier political faces. One of the many reasons I love living in Canada. I don't live in a society that spurs me to jump to violent solutions.

and the establishment of a French-speaking Quebecer "workers' society".

Lovin' it! (BTW - it's Quebecois ... Quebecer is a pejorative, like the "N" word)

Bullshit. Quebecer is the English version of Quebecios. Same word, no pejorative. It's used in our society and in our media all the time. YOU KNOW NOTHING!

The organization was also influenced by other movements, such as those for the independence of former colonies such as Algeria, Vietnam and Cuba.

Hmmm ... I'm not really keen on the idea of the white man coming into a foreign country, shooting all the locals up, strip-mining their resources and planting their flag so not sure how associating with those who oppose that is bad? Canadians have a history of galumphing off to do the beck 'n call of of Big Daddy Britain, though, so I understand you may be mentally acclimated to seeing anyone opposing colonialism as "evil."

Way to take a descriptive sentence from my post and again tangent if off to never never land to get away from the truth that you glorified and excused the action of a grou of thugs and killers. Oh and does beck and call cover WW1 and WW2? Before your asses got into the game I might add?

BTW - who was the Canadian Airborne Regiment influenced by in Somalia in the early '90's when they were caught using the locals as target practice? Sounds rather dreadful, gang!

As dreadful as My Lai?

Support for these mislabeled "freedom fighters" is inappropriate as best.
For you to make a joke of it is on the same level of moral bankruptcy as justifying the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

The FLQ is "guilty" in the death of 1 person as part of a liberation action.

Where do I fucking start?

# 1963-1969 - FLQ starts bombing at the average rate of one every ten days. Targets included English owned businesses, banks, McGill University and the homes of prominent English speakers.
# 1963 - Montreal - FLQ bombing of Canadian Army Recruiting Center, killing Sgt. Wilfred V. O'neil.
# May 18, 1966 - Paul Joseph Chartier's attempt to bomb the House of Commons fails when the device goes off prematurely in a Centre Block washroom.
# late 1960s - the Front de Libération du Québec (FLQ) placed a bomb in a window well of the National Defence Headquarters on Lisgar St in Ottawa, Ontario. The explosion killed a cleaning lady.
# late 1960s - the FLQ placed a bomb in a mailbox next to the Canadian Tire store on Wellington St in Ottawa, Ontario.
# February 13, 1969 - the FLQ set off a powerful bomb that ripped through the Montreal Stock Exchange causing massive destruction and seriously injuring twenty-seven people.
# October 5, 1970 - British diplomat James Cross and October 10 Quebec Minister of Labour Pierre Laporte are kidnapped by the FLQ in Montreal. (The dead body of Pierre Laporte was discovered in the trunk of a car in Montreal, Quebec on October 17, 1970; Cross was released on December 3, 1970.)
# April 20, 1995 - Roger Charles Bell places a bomb outside Province House, the Prince Edward Island legislature, injuring one
# 2000 - The Brigade d'autodéfense du français bombs a church where a english fundraiser was to be held.
# 2001 - Quebec - The FLQ/The Brigade d'autodéfense du français firebombs three "Second Cup" locations in Montreal. They were targeted because of the company's use of its incorporated English name "Second Cup". Rhéal Mathieu, a previously convicted FLQ terrorist was convicted for all three bombings. Seven McDonald's restaurants were also firebombed.

You have come out in support of Al Qaeda, a pro-supernatural group, taking on the United States, whom you've made abundantly clear you hate.

No I did Not. And no I don't. Put the cap back on the markers, and stop eating glue.



Does that make you 3,000 times worse than poor ol' Saxi? ACK, gang! Say it ain't so! Johnny Rockets would never do it, gang!

You truly needed much more attention that mommy gave you as a child.

JRockets

Hai JohnnyRockets! *Saxi Waves at JohnnyRockets!* You spent a lot of time doing silly slaps at the USA and the kind of right-wing, nationalistic hockey game chest-thumping instead of replying to my erudite and well-formed points about the heroism of standing-up to the entrenched regime of linguistic and racial bigotry and global war crimes exported by Canada.

However, as I'm not American I'll have to defer to them to reply to your white-hot, burning hatred of the USA. (It's strange how the "little brother" syndrome is the immediate knee-jerk of all Canadians; comes across as rather off-kilter at times!)

Sorry I can't be of more help to you!

I hope you're feeling a little better, honey!

STX

[saxitoxin]

You can either accept this fact & re-consider your position (after all, these people have first-hand experience, what they are actually talking about), or you must indeed denounce them all as stupid. Question being, how much brain-washing has been going on on your side then ...

Ahuda - I have always enjoyed how, when presented with statistics and academic facts about the generalized view of superiority of the DDR of those who had the opportunity to experience both, the response is either "but this romantic comedy movie I saw about the DDR says otherwise!" or, better yet, "well ... uhhh ... you're DUMB! I dunna care 'bout ur dum factz, I jus noes truth!"

I'm glad you are contributing some thoughtful commentary to this thread as the stock, formulaic responses from the brainwashed masses of westerners was getting to be a little tedious for poor ol' Saxi!

In a spirit of world Dadaistic revolution and hope for the unity of all people of all races and nationalities in a chorus of socialist fraternity,
STX

[BigBallinStalin]

His allegations still have no bearing on how terrible the DDR life was. Even if the West had a few people fleeing from the West, MOST of the people fleeing were moving to the West from the DDR. Certainly, life in the DDR was worse for most, while life in the West was bad for very very few.

I don´t want to spoil saxis fun by getting all too serious here, but in the last German elections "Die Linke" (the party, that originated partly in the old SED of the GDR and is the closest to a socialist party in Germany today) won in 2 of 5 East German "Bundesländern" (comparable probably to the states in USA) and came second in the remaining 3. Taken altogether, they probably are the strongest political party in the former GDR today. Now what does that tell you ?

They got a lot of brainwashed fanatics?

Haha, I half expected that kind of response. It´s the same knee-jerk reaction, that you get from West German politicians & media, when confronted with these facts.

The East Germans have been accused of being ungrateful & unappreciative of the freedom, that capitalism brought them. Of being nostalgic & blocking out the many bad things about the former GDR system. Of being unable to adjust to the new system, that requires people to take responsibility themselves. And so on, and so on.

I remember one conservative politician going so far as to basically calling them stupid and doubting, if they were fit to vote in a "free democratic country". That´s what it basically comes down to, what you & all these guys are saying: That these people are too stupid to evaluate their own life experiences & decide for themselves, what is good for them / how they prefer to live.

If we hold back on judgements for a moment, the simple fact is: A huge percentage of those old enough to have lived under both the old GDR system & the "new" system for almost 20 years now, obviously don´t share your simple black-and-white perception of the world, where life in the GDR was simply "terrible" and/or "worse for most".

You can either accept this fact & re-consider your position (after all, these people have first-hand experience, what they are actually talking about), or you must indeed denounce them all as stupid. Question being, how much brain-washing has been going on on your side then ...

I have spoken with quite a few East Germans and found, they were not stupid at all. As a matter of fact, they were holding rather differentiated & reflected points of view.

They had not forgotten about the down-sides of life in the GDR. They remembered the Stasi, the state propaganda & censorship, the travel limitations and all kinds of problems. They did not claim, the GDR had been a paradise. They did however think, that in many regards life had been better then than today, under the new system.

Back then everybody, who wanted to work, had work. And the work itself (working conditions, atmosphere, etc.) was better than today too, where people are toiling away for minimum wages (barely making ends meet) and take all kind of shit & abuse, because they are afraid to lose their job, if they speak up.

Back then everybody had housing, food, access to education & health care. They did not have much of the great stuff, that they could see on Western TV all the time, but looking back they realised, that they actually had all they really needed.

I am sure, most of these people don´t want to go back to the very same GDR system, that they have seen. They would prefer a life without constant state control. And yet, they think "many things were better back then".

Ei?! That question of mine wasn't a knee-jerk reaction; it's my pulling your chain, so you can pound out a massive response and throw insults at the same time. Thanks for dancing to my tune. I greatly enjoyed the show, so shall we proceed?

I've never said nor implied that they're too stupid and yada yada yada. You've turned that into my argument and then beat the straw man to death. All I've done is ask questions that came to mind while I was watching Das Leben Der Anderen, and based mainly from conversations with East Germans and West Germans and Young Germans, I've inferred that life there sucked because compared to the West it wasn't that great (and you have yet to counter this). It was terrible because frankly living in a "free" and "democratic" society like the East would have been terrifying if you didn't agree with their grand plan on how things should work. [This is addressed further below]

All you've said to counter this is by mentioning that the old guys that lived during the DDR still like their old parties... Well, duh, even the Bulgarians still voted for the Communist/Socialist parties when given the choice of something different. A lot of those Bulgarians still think, or hope, it'll be the same like it was back in the day. A lot feel comfortable voting for the old party because that's what they're used to, that's the hand that fed them. And those Bulgarians are very similar to the East Germans who you've mentioned. Your point doesn't prove that voting for the same old party is actually a good thing, nor does it show that life was better in East Germany than in the West; therefore, my point still stands.


Yeah, things were better back then as long as you towed the line, kept your head down, and shuffled to the Party's beat, then no problems. Alles sehr gut. But, just like you said, "They would prefer a life without constant state control." Well too bad, they can't get one without the other with a government similar to the past; the best way for them is the political path that they've been riding since the unification.

Of course all won't be honky-dory while a state planned economy switches to a more free market economy. Also, the currency switch caused many problems. There became almost overnight an increased cost for labor while production and sales remained the same. This didn't really helps things for the East Germans economically, but those things take time to balance out, and they are balancing out. More and more people will become more satisfied with the way things are going, and although there may be some nostalgia over how safe and secure things were back then, those days do not want to be revisited (as you just mentioned, which favors my point).

So what's your point? Life was still better in the West than in the East, and life in East Germany wasn't that great. Life there was terrible for the most part because what's life worth living for if you only live on your knees? Constant state supervision is a terrible way to live, even if they provide you a job (How much choice is there in that decision?) and healthcare, which today is better than the US's. Not too mention, any society where entrepreneurship and artistic freedom is severely limited is a terrible way to live. The State can buy you all the materials goods you want, but they can't afford to give you too much freedom, too much self-expression, or choice. It's a dreadful way to live.

[saxitoxin]

Ei?! That question of mine wasn't a knee-jerk reaction; it's my pulling your chain, so you can pound out a massive response and throw insults at the same time. Thanks for dancing to my tune. I greatly enjoyed the show, so shall we proceed?

I've never said nor implied that they're too stupid and yada yada yada. You've turned that into my argument and then beat the straw man to death. All I've done is ask questions that came to mind while I was watching Das Leben Der Anderen, and based mainly from conversations with East Germans and West Germans and Young Germans, I've inferred that life there sucked because compared to the West it wasn't that great (and you have yet to counter this). It was terrible because frankly living in a "free" and "democratic" society like the East would have been terrifying if you didn't agree with their grand plan on how things should work. [This is addressed further below]

All you've said to counter this is by mentioning that the old guys that lived during the DDR still like their old parties... Well, duh, even the Bulgarians still voted for the Communist/Socialist parties when given the choice of something different. A lot of those Bulgarians still think, or hope, it'll be the same like it was back in the day. A lot feel comfortable voting for the old party because that's what they're used to, that's the hand that fed them. And those Bulgarians are very similar to the East Germans who you've mentioned. Your point doesn't prove that voting for the same old party is actually a good thing, nor does it show that life was better in East Germany than in the West; therefore, my point still stands.


Yeah, things were better back then as long as you towed the line, kept your head down, and shuffled to the Party's beat, then no problems. Alles sehr gut. But, just like you said, "They would prefer a life without constant state control." Well too bad, they can't get one without the other with a government similar to the past; the best way for them is the political path that they've been riding since the unification.

Of course all won't be honky-dory while a state planned economy switches to a more free market economy. Also, the currency switch caused many problems. There became almost overnight an increased cost for labor while production and sales remained the same. This didn't really helps things for the East Germans economically, but those things take time to balance out, and they are balancing out. More and more people will become more satisfied with the way things are going, and although there may be some nostalgia over how safe and secure things were back then, those days do not want to be revisited (as you just mentioned, which favors my point).

So what's your point? Life was still better in the West than in the East, and life in East Germany wasn't that great. Life there was terrible for the most part because what's life worth living for if you only live on your knees? Constant state supervision is a terrible way to live, even if they provide you a job (How much choice is there in that decision?) and healthcare, which today is better than the US's. Not too mention, any society where entrepreneurship and artistic freedom is severely limited is a terrible way to live. The State can buy you all the materials goods you want, but they can't afford to give you too much freedom, too much self-expression, or choice. It's a dreadful way to live.

Hai BBS! *Saxi Waves at BBS*

Interested in what you had to say to ahunda but didn't have time to read your whole speech. Can you bullet-point?

Thanks, BBS!
- Saxi

[BigBallinStalin]

Ei?! That question of mine wasn't a knee-jerk reaction; it's my pulling your chain, so you can pound out a massive response and throw insults at the same time. Thanks for dancing to my tune. I greatly enjoyed the show, so shall we proceed?

I've never said nor implied that they're too stupid and yada yada yada. You've turned that into my argument and then beat the straw man to death. All I've done is ask questions that came to mind while I was watching Das Leben Der Anderen, and based mainly from conversations with East Germans and West Germans and Young Germans, I've inferred that life there sucked because compared to the West it wasn't that great (and you have yet to counter this). It was terrible because frankly living in a "free" and "democratic" society like the East would have been terrifying if you didn't agree with their grand plan on how things should work. [This is addressed further below]

All you've said to counter this is by mentioning that the old guys that lived during the DDR still like their old parties... Well, duh, even the Bulgarians still voted for the Communist/Socialist parties when given the choice of something different. A lot of those Bulgarians still think, or hope, it'll be the same like it was back in the day. A lot feel comfortable voting for the old party because that's what they're used to, that's the hand that fed them. And those Bulgarians are very similar to the East Germans who you've mentioned. Your point doesn't prove that voting for the same old party is actually a good thing, nor does it show that life was better in East Germany than in the West; therefore, my point still stands.


Yeah, things were better back then as long as you towed the line, kept your head down, and shuffled to the Party's beat, then no problems. Alles sehr gut. But, just like you said, "They would prefer a life without constant state control." Well too bad, they can't get one without the other with a government similar to the past; the best way for them is the political path that they've been riding since the unification.

Of course all won't be honky-dory while a state planned economy switches to a more free market economy. Also, the currency switch caused many problems. There became almost overnight an increased cost for labor while production and sales remained the same. This didn't really helps things for the East Germans economically, but those things take time to balance out, and they are balancing out. More and more people will become more satisfied with the way things are going, and although there may be some nostalgia over how safe and secure things were back then, those days do not want to be revisited (as you just mentioned, which favors my point).

So what's your point? Life was still better in the West than in the East, and life in East Germany wasn't that great. Life there was terrible for the most part because what's life worth living for if you only live on your knees? Constant state supervision is a terrible way to live, even if they provide you a job (How much choice is there in that decision?) and healthcare, which today is better than the US's. Not too mention, any society where entrepreneurship and artistic freedom is severely limited is a terrible way to live. The State can buy you all the materials goods you want, but they can't afford to give you too much freedom, too much self-expression, or choice. It's a dreadful way to live.

Hai BBS! *Saxi Waves at BBS*

Interested in what you had to say to ahunda but didn't have time to read your whole speech. Can you bullet-point?

Thanks, BBS!
- Saxi

haha, sure, not a problem.

Just read the parts in bold and that should be the skeleton of my message.

[ahunda]

Ei?! That question of mine wasn't a knee-jerk reaction; it's my pulling your chain, so you can pound out a massive response and throw insults at the same time. Thanks for dancing to my tune. I greatly enjoyed the show, so shall we proceed?

Aha. I am not well accustomed to the usual way you are debating in this forum. So maybe I misunderstood you indeed. You are saying, you weren´t serious in your last post, but simply threw a sarcastic one-liner at me, kind of baiting me ? That´s fine. I am unsure however, where I am supposed to have insulted anyone ?

I've never said nor implied that they're too stupid and yada yada yada. You've turned that into my argument and then beat the straw man to death.

If saying these people are "brainwashed fanatics" doesn´t come awfully close to calling them "stupid", then I really don´t know. I did not turn any words around here. I simply took your response at face value. If you don´t want to be misinterpreted, then maybe don´t post stuff you don´t actually mean ?

All I've done is ask questions that came to mind while I was watching Das Leben Der Anderen, and based mainly from conversations with East Germans and West Germans and Young Germans, I've inferred that life there sucked because compared to the West it wasn't that great (and you have yet to counter this).

I pointed out to you, that a huge percentage of people, who have actually been living in the GDR, obviously don´t think, that life there "sucked". This is based on the results of elections & polls, but also on personal talks I had with East Germans. You can ignore or downplay that, but it remains a fact. Isn´t that enough to at least give you pause & question your assumptions ?

It was terrible because frankly living in a "free" and "democratic" society like the East would have been terrifying if you didn't agree with their grand plan on how things should work. [This is addressed further below]

Funnily enough, I grew up in Cold War West Germany. And I do remember the political climate of those days very well. The first Communist Party of West Germany being forbidden, Communists being excluded from certain jobs & professions, phone lines tapped, journalists monitored, left wing demonstrations being met with heavy police violence, etc.

Now I don´t think, West Germany ever got as oppressive against political opposition as the GDR, but for those in opposition to the capitalist system life sure wasn´t that great either, and their freedoms were severely limited. This ain´t as black-and-white, as you are making it out to be.

All you've said to counter this is by mentioning that the old guys that lived during the DDR still like their old parties... Well, duh, even the Bulgarians still voted for the Communist/Socialist parties when given the choice of something different. A lot of those Bulgarians still think, or hope, it'll be the same like it was back in the day. A lot feel comfortable voting for the old party because that's what they're used to, that's the hand that fed them. And those Bulgarians are very similar to the East Germans who you've mentioned. Your point doesn't prove that voting for the same old party is actually a good thing, nor does it show that life was better in East Germany than in the West; therefore, my point still stands.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the question, if them voting that way is "a good thing". Who is supposed to judge that ? You ? Me ?

You can question the opinions & motivations of these people as much as you like, but the fact remains: There are many, who obviously don´t think, life was so bad under their socialist systems. Why else would they vote this way ? And how does this not counter your point ?

This doesn´t prove, that life there was better than anywhere else. I never argued that point, and I won´t. I am not a great friend of the GDR system. I will however continue pointing out to you, that things are not so easy, one-sided & clear-cut, as you seem to think.

Yeah, things were better back then as long as you towed the line, kept your head down, and shuffled to the Party's beat, then no problems. Alles sehr gut. But, just like you said, "They would prefer a life without constant state control." Well too bad, they can't get one without the other with a government similar to the past; the best way for them is the political path that they've been riding since the unification.

Who is saying, that "they can´t get one without the other" ?

"Die Linke" (the party, that I mentioned in my first post) considers itself a democratic socialist party. Their programme answers to the very ideas, that are popular in large parts of the East German population: A free & democratic political system and a socialist economy.

This is a path, that obviously appeals to many East Germans. Hoping to salvage the things, that they perceived as good in the GDR, while doing away with the bad.

Of course all won't be honky-dory while a state planned economy switches to a more free market economy. Also, the currency switch caused many problems. There became almost overnight an increased cost for labor while production and sales remained the same. This didn't really helps things for the East Germans economically, but those things take time to balance out, and they are balancing out. More and more people will become more satisfied with the way things are going, and although there may be some nostalgia over how safe and secure things were back then, those days do not want to be revisited (as you just mentioned, which favors my point).

I am not sure, I am sharing your optimism about future development in East Germany, but that is another point, that I don´t really want to argue.

You are reading only, what you want to read though: Yes, most of these people don´t want to revisit the "the very same GDR system, that they have seen". But neither are they happy with the way things are going now. And they acknowledge, that not everything was bad in the GDR. That, as a matter of fact, many things were better then. This is their perception & opinion, not mine.

So what's your point? Life was still better in the West than in the East, and life in East Germany wasn't that great. Life there was terrible for the most part because what's life worth living for if you only live on your knees?

Sorry, but that sounds bloody pompous & ridiculous. How free are we today ? Do we tell the boss at work to stuff it, when he is going on our nerves ? Do we tell the government ?

There have been polls showing that a good part of frustration in East Germany actually stemmed from the realisation, that people were just as powerless in the new system as in the old. That they still had no say about the way things were going in their daily life.

Constant state supervision is a terrible way to live, even if they provide you a job (How much choice is there in that decision?) and healthcare, which today is better than the US's. Not too mention, any society where entrepreneurship and artistic freedom is severely limited is a terrible way to live. The State can buy you all the materials goods you want, but they can't afford to give you too much freedom, too much self-expression, or choice. It's a dreadful way to live.

As I said: I am no great friend of the GDR. I am no friend of capitalism either though. And life certainly is dreadful for many people in the world, including people living in West Germany & the US.

There is no objective measure of quality of life. Your repeated question, where life was "better" can only be answered subjectively and will very much depend on the ideas, opinions & values of the individual. All I did was pointing out to you, that there is obviously a good number of people, who are answering this question different than you.

[AAFitz]

Not many Americans know about this but...

There are other countries in the world besides America.

Oh, we know.

We just dont care.

[MeDeFe]

A few points.

BBS, do NOT, under any circumstances, base your view of anything on just a movie primarily meant for entertainment. Doing so will leave you wide open to attack and deprive any argument you may have of a credible basis.


Explaining away the success of a leftist party as the result of brainwashing from 20 years ago is overly simplistic, but then again, you have no clue what you're talking about.

A significant part of the success of the political party Die Linke is due to a schism in the German Social Democratic Party (SPD) following the chancellery of Gerhard Schröder during which their economic and social policies took a sharp turn towards the right. The left wing of the SPD essentially split from the party and formed their own party WASG in 2004/05, they fusioned with the PDS in 2007 to form Die Linke. This means that Die Linke draws voters from several groups, on the one hand the actual nostagics who voted for the PDS as the successor of the east German SED, possibly out of sheer habit, and on the other hand former SPD voters who are unhappy with the direction the SPD has taken.

Even outside of what was formerly east Germany Die Linke looks well-positioned to garner a good portion of the vote, they've been getting between 5% and 8% in polls in North-Rhine-Westphalia for the past 4 months (elections are in May) and the current right-center coalition looks poised to lose its majority. This is nowhere near being the strongest party in the Bundesland as is the case in some of the "new Bundesländer", but it's a huge step up from the 3.1% they got during the last elections. (Parties in Germany need to get 5% of the vote in order to make it into parliament, individuals may be elected directly as well, one candidate of Die Linke was elected directly)

[saxitoxin]

Yeah, things were better back then as long as you towed the line, kept your head down, and shuffled to the Party's beat, then no problems. Alles sehr gut. But, just like you said, "They would prefer a life without constant state control."

I appreciate you bullet-pointing but it's still a bit wordy so I just had to pick one line at random to address.

Anywho ... while I was a card-carrying member of the Socialist Unity Party, my brother was a member of the Democratic Farmers' Party, one of five free and independent political parties in the former DDR, so I think the theory fronted by the romantic-comedy movie you saw about "shuffling to the Party's beat" may not be entirely on mark.

At the end of the day, all people in the former DDR were proud of the state's status as the world capital of peace and the paradise of the farmers and the workers and the gun barrel of a change in consciousness toward a world free from nuclear weapons and illiteracy. During my brief, few years of service to the cause of internationalism in the Felix Dzerzhinsky Guards Regiment I was proud to have helped stop many racists, fascists, supernaturalists, homophobes, capitalists and others from derailing the radical international Dadaistic revolution and the paradigm shift to a socialist reality of agrarian, craft-based communalism. Unfortunately, none of our efforts were enough and foreign spies and saboteurs had gained the upper hand by the late '80's.

[notyou2]

So Saxi, why did the east join the west if it was paradise? Also, why did they keep the peoples in this paradise by force?

[saxitoxin]

So Saxi, why did the east join the west if it was paradise?

Why did Korea "join" Japan in 1910?

Also, why did they keep the peoples in this paradise by force?

Why did Margaret Thatcher like to sodomize Brian Mulroney with a strap-on?