Dan Savage

[patches70]

You're taking the literal meaning of homophobia thus trying to dilute its meaning. As quoted from wikipedia 'Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality or people who are identified as or perceived as being homosexual.' Your attitude towards homosexuality is a negative one and thus is a homophobic one. Also, way to cut my quote in order to avoid my reasonable questions.

So being a homophobe = bigot?

If so, then apply that same definition to other things, such as Christianity. "Negative attitudes and feelings towards Christianity or people who are identified as or perceived as being Christian".

If having negative attitudes toward homosexuality makes a person a bigot, then having negative attitudes toward Christianity also makes one a bigot.

Not really, but I suspect that even you don't believe that argument.

Dan Savage thinks Christians are bigots and use the bible to justify the bigotry. Many have agreed with that premise, emphatically.

Dan Savage should know a bigot, takes one to know one. Dan Savage is a bigot as well. So are many in this thread.

You, sym, are a bigot. You have bigoted sentiments toward Americans, religious beliefs and those who practice their beliefs (and probably plenty of bigotry to other groups). Of course you won't admit it, nor see it. But it's quite plain to see from your threads and your comments.

Just answer, yes or no, is a homophobe a bigot?

You've got the definition of a homophobe right there, now just answer if a homophobe is a bigot. All bigots justify their attitudes in some way, shape or form. No matter, it still makes them bigots.

[patches70]

You're taking the literal meaning of homophobia thus trying to dilute its meaning. As quoted from wikipedia 'Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality or people who are identified as or perceived as being homosexual.' Your attitude towards homosexuality is a negative one and thus is a homophobic one. Also, way to cut my quote in order to avoid my reasonable questions.

So being a homophobe = bigot?

If so, then apply that same definition to other things, such as Christianity. "Negative attitudes and feelings towards Christianity or people who are identified as or perceived as being Christian".

If having negative attitudes toward homosexuality makes a person a bigot, then having negative attitudes toward Christianity also makes one a bigot.

Except Christianity, unlike homosexuality, is a set of ideas regarding the origin of the universe, morality, and divine figures. Statements with a truth value can be disputed without making one a bigot. Now, if someone dislikes Christians in general then you would have an argument. It would be similar to the way that a lot of people dislike Muslims in general. But everyone, literally everyone, is going to disagree with some aspect of every religion that is not there own. That is not bigotry, and simply stating these disagreements in public is not bigotry.

And yet, NS simply stating that he does not agree with the homosexual lifestyle makes him a bigot.....

[Frigidus]

You're taking the literal meaning of homophobia thus trying to dilute its meaning. As quoted from wikipedia 'Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality or people who are identified as or perceived as being homosexual.' Your attitude towards homosexuality is a negative one and thus is a homophobic one. Also, way to cut my quote in order to avoid my reasonable questions.

So being a homophobe = bigot?

If so, then apply that same definition to other things, such as Christianity. "Negative attitudes and feelings towards Christianity or people who are identified as or perceived as being Christian".

If having negative attitudes toward homosexuality makes a person a bigot, then having negative attitudes toward Christianity also makes one a bigot.

Except Christianity, unlike homosexuality, is a set of ideas regarding the origin of the universe, morality, and divine figures. Statements with a truth value can be disputed without making one a bigot. Now, if someone dislikes Christians in general then you would have an argument. It would be similar to the way that a lot of people dislike Muslims in general. But everyone, literally everyone, is going to disagree with some aspect of every religion that is not there own. That is not bigotry, and simply stating these disagreements in public is not bigotry.

And yet, NS simply stating that he does not agree with the homosexual lifestyle makes him a bigot.....

Yup. Unless he can provide a logical reason for that opinion it is bigotry. What would be the difference between him saying he disagrees with the "homosexual lifestyle" and him saying that he disagrees with, say, mixed race couples?

[patches70]

Yup. Unless he can provide a logical reason for that opinion it is bigotry. What would be the difference between him saying he disagrees with the "homosexual lifestyle" and him saying that he disagrees with, say, mixed race couples?

When did NS ever say he disagrees with mixed race couples? Strawman much?

As to logical reasons to opposed homosexual lifestyle, there are plenty. I find it illogical to rail against Christianity when one cannot produce a single teaching of Jesus that they disagree with. Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus.


If you would, please quote any teachings of Jesus that you find wrong. You know, like "love your neighbor", do you disagree with that? "Treat others as you'd have be treated yourself", do you disagree with that? "Judge not lest you be judged yourself", do you disagree with that? "If you have a dispute with your neighbor, go to him and work it out. If the dispute goes to a judge then you will not escape until the last penny is paid", do you disagree with that? Go find something that Jesus taught and show- "Ha! See there! That can be used to justify bigotry against <insert whatever group you'd like>"

Tell me, what teachings of Jesus are that is the basis of this bigotry to homosexuals so justified?

As I said earlier, it's all fine and dandy to group Christians together and hate on them, it "proper" but to do so to any other group is wrong, bigotry and hateful.

Dan Savage is a bigot. See it, don't see it. It doesn't change the fact that he is, and not just to Christians. He's been called out plenty of times by plenty of people for his hateful comments and transexuals, political parties and racism.

So, keep on defending him.

[Symmetry]

You, sym, are a bigot. You have bigoted sentiments toward Americans, religious beliefs and those who practice their beliefs (and probably plenty of bigotry to other groups). Of course you won't admit it, nor see it. But it's quite plain to see from your threads and your comments.

Just answer, yes or no, is a homophobe a bigot?

Quite a rant you have going on there while demanding that I post a "yes or no" answer. I hope that you don't consider this response to be bigotry, but I don't consider you to be representative of Americans. Indeed, the American classmates, colleagues, family, and friends would, I feel, universally acknowledge that you're a bit dim.

[patches70]

You, sym, are a bigot. You have bigoted sentiments toward Americans, religious beliefs and those who practice their beliefs (and probably plenty of bigotry to other groups). Of course you won't admit it, nor see it. But it's quite plain to see from your threads and your comments.

Just answer, yes or no, is a homophobe a bigot?

Quite a rant you have going on there while demanding that I post a "yes or no" answer. I hope that you don't consider this response to be bigotry, but I don't consider you to be representative of Americans. Indeed, the American classmates, colleagues, family, and friends would, I feel, universally acknowledge that you're a bit dim.

Of course you won't answer, because it will undermine your entire world view.

I love your "just ask my American friends if I'm bigoted toward Americans".

You ever hear of a guy named James Watt? Probably not, he was the sec of the interior back during Reagan's term. He got himself into a bit of hot water when he said (In defense that he was not a bigot) "I've got a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple working for me!"
He resigned very shortly after, for obvious reasons.
We used to tell a joke- "How much electricity does it take to embarrass a President? One Watt."

Yes, sym, face the truth, you are a bigot.

[Neoteny]

Yup. Unless he can provide a logical reason for that opinion it is bigotry. What would be the difference between him saying he disagrees with the "homosexual lifestyle" and him saying that he disagrees with, say, mixed race couples?

When did NS ever say he disagrees with mixed race couples? Strawman much?

Oof. I suggest you give that one another try.

[Frigidus]

Yup. Unless he can provide a logical reason for that opinion it is bigotry. What would be the difference between him saying he disagrees with the "homosexual lifestyle" and him saying that he disagrees with, say, mixed race couples?

When did NS ever say he disagrees with mixed race couples? Strawman much?

I am asking what the functional difference between those two "lifestyles" is. They both seem about evenly bigoted to me.

As to logical reasons to opposed homosexual lifestyle, there are plenty.

Name one. Preferably one that can't be disputed in less than five minutes. Remember, it has to meet logical standards so you can't cite the Bible.

I find it illogical to rail against Christianity when one cannot produce a single teaching of Jesus that they disagree with. Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus.


If you would, please quote any teachings of Jesus that you find wrong. You know, like "love your neighbor", do you disagree with that? "Treat others as you'd have be treated yourself", do you disagree with that? "Judge not lest you be judged yourself", do you disagree with that? "If you have a dispute with your neighbor, go to him and work it out. If the dispute goes to a judge then you will not escape until the last penny is paid", do you disagree with that? Go find something that Jesus taught and show- "Ha! See there! That can be used to justify bigotry against <insert whatever group you'd like>"

I don't disagree with the philosophies supposedly espoused by Jesus, I disagree with the existence of Jesus as described in the Bible. Maybe there was a cult leader of some sort that would have loosely fit with the "teachings" people have attributed to him, but there's no evidence of his existence outside of the Bible. More likely, some random people made a lot of it up. Take Jesus and the woman taken in adultery for example. Biblical scholars know that that wasn't in the original Bible, it was added in later. It is basically Jesus fanfiction. Who's to say that every word written about him wasn't fiction?

Tell me, what teachings of Jesus are that is the basis of this bigotry to homosexuals so justified?

Jesus doesn't say a word about homosexuality in the Bible. That doesn't mean that the Bible isn't the primary source of intolerance of homosexuals in this country.

As I said earlier, it's all fine and dandy to group Christians together and hate on them, it "proper" but to do so to any other group is wrong, bigotry and hateful.

Criticizing the Bible does not translate to hating Christians. I've had respectful discussions of my beliefs with Christian friends of mine, it just seems that some people feel that their religion is off limits when it comes to critical thought.

Dan Savage is a bigot. See it, don't see it. It doesn't change the fact that he is, and not just to Christians. He's been called out plenty of times by plenty of people for his hateful comments and transexuals, political parties and racism.

So, keep on defending him.

As for Dan Savage, I honestly don't give a shit about him. He's just another guy that people use to score bullshit imaginary political points off of. I don't know too much about him. Maybe he's a gigantic prick, maybe he's an absolute joy. Whatever. In this one case I agree with everything he said.

[Army of GOD]

I find it hilarious to "disagree" with a lifestyle. Disagreeing implies there's some sort of objective way to live.

I disagree with people who eat turkey's lifestyle. Therefore I am going to beat the living shit out of them and whine when people think my irrational hatred of turkey-eaters is criticized.

[Symmetry]

You, sym, are a bigot. You have bigoted sentiments toward Americans, religious beliefs and those who practice their beliefs (and probably plenty of bigotry to other groups). Of course you won't admit it, nor see it. But it's quite plain to see from your threads and your comments.

Just answer, yes or no, is a homophobe a bigot?

Quite a rant you have going on there while demanding that I post a "yes or no" answer. I hope that you don't consider this response to be bigotry, but I don't consider you to be representative of Americans. Indeed, the American classmates, colleagues, family, and friends would, I feel, universally acknowledge that you're a bit dim.

Of course you won't answer, because it will undermine your entire world view.

I love your "just ask my American friends if I'm bigoted toward Americans".

You ever hear of a guy named James Watt? Probably not, he was the sec of the interior back during Reagan's term. He got himself into a bit of hot water when he said (In defense that he was not a bigot) "I've got a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple working for me!"
He resigned very shortly after, for obvious reasons.
We used to tell a joke- "How much electricity does it take to embarrass a President? One Watt."

Yes, sym, face the truth, you are a bigot.

Oh dear, another mental train-wreck from Patches- devoid of argument; lacking in response; weirdly bigotted; oddly accusatory; and full of non-sequiturs.

[Army of GOD]

You, sym, are a bigot. You have bigoted sentiments toward Americans, religious beliefs and those who practice their beliefs (and probably plenty of bigotry to other groups). Of course you won't admit it, nor see it. But it's quite plain to see from your threads and your comments.

Just answer, yes or no, is a homophobe a bigot?

Quite a rant you have going on there while demanding that I post a "yes or no" answer. I hope that you don't consider this response to be bigotry, but I don't consider you to be representative of Americans. Indeed, the American classmates, colleagues, family, and friends would, I feel, universally acknowledge that you're a bit dim.

Of course you won't answer, because it will undermine your entire world view.

I love your "just ask my American friends if I'm bigoted toward Americans".

You ever hear of a guy named James Watt? Probably not, he was the sec of the interior back during Reagan's term. He got himself into a bit of hot water when he said (In defense that he was not a bigot) "I've got a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple working for me!"
He resigned very shortly after, for obvious reasons.
We used to tell a joke- "How much electricity does it take to embarrass a President? One Watt."

Yes, sym, face the truth, you are a bigot.

Oh dear, another mental train-wreck from Patches- devoid of argument; lacking in response; weirdly bigotted; oddly accusatory; and full of non-sequiturs.

I rather enjoyed the joke tangent

[patches70]

Name one. Preferably one that can't be disputed in less than five minutes. Remember, it has to meet logical standards so you can't cite the Bible.

Sure, lets take NS. I have no idea if NS is male or female, so for this purpose we'll assume he is male.

NS is attracted to women and not attracted to men. His parents are the same way, attracted to the opposite sex. 95 out of every 100 people NS meets, be they male of female, all have the same view. They are all attracted to the opposite sex.

Now tell me, is it illogical for NS to be attracted to the opposite sex?

Is it no also logical that NS will feel that heterosexual is the norm?

Is it not also logical that NS would disagree with the homosexual lifestly simply because HE'S NOT A HOMOSEXUAL?

Now you may disagree with NS, and that's fine. But there is nothing wrong or illogical for NS disagreement with homosexual lifestyle.
Never has NS said that homosexuals should be dragged into the street and stoned. Or denied a job, or treated any different under the law as anyone else.

NS simply disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle. Now, I can't truly speak for NS, but if above is true, then tell me how it's illogical?

[patches70]

I rather enjoyed the joke tangent

That's a good joke if you know who James Watt is. If you don't, meh, it just flies over one's head in that case.

[Frigidus]

Name one. Preferably one that can't be disputed in less than five minutes. Remember, it has to meet logical standards so you can't cite the Bible.

Sure, lets take NS. I have no idea if NS is male or female, so for this purpose we'll assume he is male.

NS is attracted to women and not attracted to men. His parents are the same way, attracted to the opposite sex. 95 out of every 100 people NS meets, be they male of female, all have the same view. They are all attracted to the opposite sex.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that he's heterosexual and I'm willing to assume his family is heterosexual.

Now tell me, is it illogical for NS to be attracted to the opposite sex?

No, that's fine.

Is it no also logical that NS will feel that heterosexual is the norm?

This is a bit less reasonable. That would be like assuming that because his whole family is Christian that Christianity is the norm. Or because his whole family has brown eyes (making an assumption here for the sake of the argument) that brown eyes are the norm.

Is it not also logical that NS would disagree with the homosexual lifestly simply because HE'S NOT A HOMOSEXUAL?

So it would be reasonable for a homosexual with homosexual adoptive parents to disagree with a "heterosexual lifestyle"? Because I'd call that bigotry too.

Now you may disagree with NS, and that's fine. But there is nothing wrong or illogical for NS disagreement with homosexual lifestyle.
Never has NS said that homosexuals should be dragged into the street and stoned. Or denied a job, or treated any different under the law as anyone else.

NS simply disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle. Now, I can't truly speak for NS, but if above is true, then tell me how it's illogical?

It is illogical because this entire scenario is predicated on NS disliking anything that he isn't familiar with. If that isn't bigotry what is?

[patches70]

This is a bit less reasonable. That would be like assuming that because his whole family is Christian that Christianity is the norm. Or because his whole family has brown eyes (making an assumption here for the sake of the argument) that brown eyes are the norm.

Whoa whoa now! You best be sticking to your own rules. I never mentioned Christianity at all. Here you are saying that NS thinking heterosexuality is the norm is not because of everything around him is telling him that, but that religion is telling him to think that.

Be fair at least, and not a hypocrite. Abide by your own rules at least.

So it would be reasonable for a homosexual with homosexual adoptive parents to disagree with a "heterosexual lifestyle"? Because I'd call that bigotry too.

It would not be unreasonable at all for a homosexual with homosexual adoptive parents to believe that homosexuality is the norm. That was my term, that heterosexuality is the norm.

Statistics agree as well, being as at most 5% of the population of the US identifies as homosexual. Heterosexuality is certainly the norm.

It is illogical because this entire scenario is predicated on NS disliking anything that he isn't familiar with. If that isn't bigotry what is?

You should rethink that. We are talking about logical outcomes are we not? I'm not attaching any moral equivalence at all. Why would it be illogical for anyone to identify with what is around them all the time?

A town of cabbage farmers. Everyone grows cabbage, everyone eats cabbage every single day. One kid doesn't like cabbage, the kid next to him says -"That's strange of you". So what? Should the kid that likes cabbage feel guilty because he likes cabbage? Is the kid a bigot because he notes that the other kid doesn't like cabbage? Should the kid who likes cabbage suddenly say- "Oh, you're right, I hate cabbage as well."?

You asked for a logical reason someone would disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. I've provided it which you reject.

It is not illogical for a heterosexual person to disagree with a homosexual lifestyle. That doesn't automatically make them a bigot. It makes them a regular ole human being.

[jak111]

Is it no also logical that NS will feel that heterosexual is the norm?

Now this is all I need to quote from you from the last 3 pages to say, you're brain washed. The 'norm' So hell, I guess I might as well be hated on because I'm bisexual, correct? I can state many reasons why I am so, many of them that would make your homophobic eyes bleed and your homophobic brain melt. But can you give one GOOD reason why gay/lesbian marriage is wrong? Can you give one reason why it should be frowned upon? Of course not, because you know you have no reason to do so, you, NightStrike, and Scotty are all so blind with hatred toward different things because you wish for the same thing again and again. If you don't like change, well guess what, computers are a change from when the bible first came out, so follow your own beliefs and get off.

If you can't, then just admit you were wrong (this goes for scotty and NS as well). You three are prime examples of Savage's speech. All avoiding MANY parts of the bible, while being stuck on one so you can loathe homosexuals. Well here's another part of the bible that I think the three of you should focus on more often. "Love thy neighbor". It does not say unless he's black, oriental, native, or that he's gay, bisexual, or mentally challenged right after that sentence. So if you continue to be so hypocritical and not bother thinking outside of your religion.. well actually your belief, because your religion is technically against what you're all doing here, and think about what your saying, how you're presenting it, and what you're really trying to prove ADDED with the topic of this thread. IF you can't do that, I'm gonna just foe the three of you so I don't need to listen to things that literally have no logic, feeling, or thought of how others might react or if what you're saying is even close to the fact.

The three of you are bullies to anyone who isn't a mindless zombie following some immoral code that not even the religion you say you follow supports. END OF STORY. (Also NS, don't only quote the part of the speech Savage did to support your idiocy, at least look at the entire thing if nothing else with an open mind. I use to think you were a smart guy who was pretty cool, but your arguments here have proven me wrong).

Fastposted x1

[BigBallinStalin]

"I don't like homosexuals marrying each other because (a) I don't like homosexuals, or (b) homosexuals are weird, or (c) homosexual activity is morally wrong because (1) I don't like it or because (2) it's against the Bible; therefore, I disagree with homosexuality/ gay marriage."

Is the above a bigoted argument?

[patches70]

But can you give one GOOD reason why gay/lesbian marriage is wrong?

Oh? Now what's demanded is a "good" reason? A logical reason isn't enough now?

Is a "good" reason subjective or objective?
Based upon your emotional outburst, I'd wager that any reason that is contrary to your own view is not a "good" reason. Regardless of the merits.


You should check yourself to see where the hate is coming from. You've got some pretty messed up issues going on in that brain of yours. Good luck with that.

[Army of GOD]

since the majority of people in the US are white, it's the norm, therefore I disagree with people who are black

[Neoteny]

This is a bit less reasonable. That would be like assuming that because his whole family is Christian that Christianity is the norm. Or because his whole family has brown eyes (making an assumption here for the sake of the argument) that brown eyes are the norm.

Whoa whoa now! You best be sticking to your own rules. I never mentioned Christianity at all. Here you are saying that NS thinking heterosexuality is the norm is not because of everything around him is telling him that, but that religion is telling him to think that.

Be fair at least, and not a hypocrite. Abide by your own rules at least.

Oof. You may want to give this one another go too.

[everywhere116]

I for one have always disagreed with the life style of eating onions. Therefore, I have formed an organization which advocates the banning of eating onions. It's called PETO, People for the Ethical Treatment of Onions.

There are some within our ranks that think the group is about kiddy fiddling, though. We like to distance ourselves from them.

[jak111]

But can you give one GOOD reason why gay/lesbian marriage is wrong?

Oh? Now what's demanded is a "good" reason? A logical reason isn't enough now?

Is a "good" reason subjective or objective?
Based upon your emotional outburst, I'd wager that any reason that is contrary to your own view is not a "good" reason. Regardless of the merits.


You should check yourself to see where the hate is coming from. You've got some pretty messed up issues going on in that brain of yours. Good luck with that.

No, I'm an openly minded person. However I am tired of people who have their brains turned to off mode, either that or they can't afford the electricity bill to pay them. (This is just a metaphor to say, you three aren't thinking about what you say)

Seeing as you never answered the question because you wanted to accuse me of emotions (which right now if I put my real emotion into this, I'd just tell you to go f yourself because you're sooo narrowly minded). There was no logic behind your post, reread my entire post bud, because I said change is good, which you like the 'norm' too much, so it puts your logic at flaw. But hey, I won't judge, if it worked for the past 2000 years of oppressing people with different views then them, why stop now, right?

Like I said, if you're against change, go back to a wooden house, chopping wood all day, taking that to town and trading it for a bit of goods to keep you going. Because computers, money, phones, modern houses, schools, guns, etc. Weren't around way back when. What are they called? Oh yea, Amish people. If you're not ready for change go join them. As of now you are foed by me for continuing to do the things you're doing in this thread without thinking.

Fasposted x3.
Oh my, I love you guys (no homo meant since I mentioned I'm bi in my post up XD). Thanks AoG and Everywhere for those comments :3.

[natty dread]

Patches, FYI, every post of yours from the last 2 pages has been so full of fail there's like a 0,5cm deep dent shaped like my palm on my forehead.

Starting with this:

As to logical reasons to opposed homosexual lifestyle, there are plenty.

...he says, without providing any of those supposed "logical reasons".

Is it not also logical that NS would disagree with the homosexual lifestly simply because HE'S NOT A HOMOSEXUAL?

NS says gays shouldn't be allowed the same rights as straight people. There are plenty of people who aren't gay who still think gay people should have the same rights as everyone else. There's nothing "logical" about asserting that "since those people are different from me, they shouldn't have the same rights as me". That's not logic, that's just being an asshole.

homosexual lifestyle

If you decide to live in a trailor in the middle of a forest, spending all your days carving dick-shaped statues, that's a lifestyle. Who you want to f*ck isn't part of a "lifestyle", it's just who you are.

Sexuality != lifestyle, let's not conflate the two.

[Frigidus]

It is illogical because this entire scenario is predicated on NS disliking anything that he isn't familiar with. If that isn't bigotry what is?

You should rethink that. We are talking about logical outcomes are we not? I'm not attaching any moral equivalence at all. Why would it be illogical for anyone to identify with what is around them all the time?

A town of cabbage farmers. Everyone grows cabbage, everyone eats cabbage every single day. One kid doesn't like cabbage, the kid next to him says -"That's strange of you". So what? Should the kid that likes cabbage feel guilty because he likes cabbage? Is the kid a bigot because he notes that the other kid doesn't like cabbage? Should the kid who likes cabbage suddenly say- "Oh, you're right, I hate cabbage as well."?

What? I'm not saying that heterosexuals should all become homosexuals. I'm saying that we should accept each others differences. Does everyone have to be the same for us to avoid conflict? In terms of your cabbage scenario, wouldn't you agree that it would be ridiculous for the people that enjoy cabbage to hold the opinion that anyone that dislikes cabbage is leading an immoral lifestyle?

You asked for a logical reason someone would disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. I've provided it which you reject.

It is not illogical for a heterosexual person to disagree with a homosexual lifestyle. That doesn't automatically make them a bigot. It makes them a regular ole human being.

The thing is, you are giving a reason for why Nightstrike believes what he does, not a reason that that belief is justified. I'm not sure that we are having the same argument. I'm not arguing that it is illogical that there are people against homosexuality, I am arguing that there is no logical argument that supports these anti-homosexuality beliefs. I am also arguing that because they hold these baseless opinions about a group of people that they are bigots.

[Night Strike]

NS says gays shouldn't be allowed the same rights as straight people.

You never actually read my posts do you? You see that I made a post and immediately reply with "homophobe" or "racist" (depending on the thread topic). Every person has the same rights, no matter what color or lifestyle they have. That's part of the whole "inalienable rights" instilled in the founding of this nation. Marriage is NOT a right, therefore society can define the parameters of marriage: one male may be married to one female at one time.