New Evidence regarding Obama

[saxitoxin]

there is more to it than tax rates. But your illustration does show that Reagan's cuts are what unleashed the 80's and paved the way for the roaring 90's and extended well beyond. Yeah yeah I know Bill Clinton invented the internet and gets all the credit cards...

Also, notice that Clinton's rates were during "good times". Obama's tax hikes would kick in at the height of the Great Recession...at the height of the European Debt Crisis, right at the cusp of our Double Dip and 4-5$ gasoline normalcy and fast approaching the fiscal cliff.

Bill Clinton is with us presently, as far as rates go
1 week ago


If Obama's idea for the economy worked, and we were actually growing and jobs were being created at even half the level the President promised and got elected on,(5 million new green jobs?), Obama would not have half the resistance to the tax increases. If Obama's ideas worked and the economy was growing again, I myself would not be as vocal against the tax hikes. However I am sad to realize the economy has not turned the corner. 8-10% Unemployment is going to be the new normal for at least the next 3 years, and Europe is not going to help this one bit and will most likely make the 8-10 go to 9-12% Unemployment as "normal"

Scott - maasman has an excellent point.

You present a solid, well-reasoned argument that - while not everyone may agree with - will at least engage and, maybe, convince some people. There's no doubt that Obama has been a complete economic catastrophe (though, personally, I'm certain neither McCain nor Romney would have done better). The new Crossroads YouTube video is kind of brilliant ...



However, as maasman notes, accusing Obama of being a communist sleeper agent secretly planted by the KGB to usurp the constitution, evidence for which is outlined in a YouTube video and an email that a friend of a friend of a friend forwarded you will - for most people - instantly close the door to hear any of your rational points like those above.

[Woodruff]

If Obama's idea for the economy worked, and we were actually growing and jobs were being created at even half the level the President promised and got elected on,(5 million new green jobs?), Obama would not have half the resistance to the tax increases. If Obama's ideas worked and the economy was growing again, I myself would not be as vocal against the tax hikes.

You know (I would hope by now) that I am no fan of Obama. So this is not at all a defense of him. But if low taxes for "job creators" were actually growing jobs (like some seem to like to claim), then we'd be in a massive state of job security right now, and people wouldn't be so vocal about raising taxes on those "non job creators".

[Phatscotty]

there is more to it than tax rates. But your illustration does show that Reagan's cuts are what unleashed the 80's and paved the way for the roaring 90's and extended well beyond. Yeah yeah I know Bill Clinton invented the internet and gets all the credit cards...

Also, notice that Clinton's rates were during "good times". Obama's tax hikes would kick in at the height of the Great Recession...at the height of the European Debt Crisis, right at the cusp of our Double Dip and 4-5$ gasoline normalcy and fast approaching the fiscal cliff.

Bill Clinton is with us presently, as far as rates go
1 week ago


If Obama's idea for the economy worked, and we were actually growing and jobs were being created at even half the level the President promised and got elected on,(5 million new green jobs?), Obama would not have half the resistance to the tax increases. If Obama's ideas worked and the economy was growing again, I myself would not be as vocal against the tax hikes. However I am sad to realize the economy has not turned the corner. 8-10% Unemployment is going to be the new normal for at least the next 3 years, and Europe is not going to help this one bit and will most likely make the 8-10 go to 9-12% Unemployment as "normal"

Scott - maasman has an excellent point.

You present a solid, well-reasoned argument that - while not everyone may agree with - will at least engage and, maybe, convince some people. There's no doubt that Obama has been a complete economic catastrophe (though, personally, I'm certain neither McCain nor Romney would have done better). The new Crossroads YouTube video is kind of brilliant ...



However, as maasman notes, accusing Obama of being a communist sleeper agent secretly planted by the KGB to usurp the constitution, evidence for which is outlined in a YouTube video and an email that a friend of a friend of a friend forwarded you will - for most people - instantly close the door to hear any of your rational points like those above.

That's okay. We were just talking about tax rates. Wah Wahhhhhh.

noted though

[saxitoxin]

there is more to it than tax rates. But your illustration does show that Reagan's cuts are what unleashed the 80's and paved the way for the roaring 90's and extended well beyond. Yeah yeah I know Bill Clinton invented the internet and gets all the credit cards...

Also, notice that Clinton's rates were during "good times". Obama's tax hikes would kick in at the height of the Great Recession...at the height of the European Debt Crisis, right at the cusp of our Double Dip and 4-5$ gasoline normalcy and fast approaching the fiscal cliff.

Bill Clinton is with us presently, as far as rates go
1 week ago


If Obama's idea for the economy worked, and we were actually growing and jobs were being created at even half the level the President promised and got elected on,(5 million new green jobs?), Obama would not have half the resistance to the tax increases. If Obama's ideas worked and the economy was growing again, I myself would not be as vocal against the tax hikes. However I am sad to realize the economy has not turned the corner. 8-10% Unemployment is going to be the new normal for at least the next 3 years, and Europe is not going to help this one bit and will most likely make the 8-10 go to 9-12% Unemployment as "normal"

Scott - maasman has an excellent point.

You present a solid, well-reasoned argument that - while not everyone may agree with - will at least engage and, maybe, convince some people. There's no doubt that Obama has been a complete economic catastrophe (though, personally, I'm certain neither McCain nor Romney would have done better). The new Crossroads YouTube video is kind of brilliant ...



However, as maasman notes, accusing Obama of being a communist sleeper agent secretly planted by the KGB to usurp the constitution, evidence for which is outlined in a YouTube video and an email that a friend of a friend of a friend forwarded you will - for most people - instantly close the door to hear any of your rational points like those above.

That's okay. We were just talking about tax rates. Wah Wahhhhhh.

noted though

Yeah, I think the point is your case can stand on its own merits. Introducing all the UFO and Bigfoot stuff doesn't strengthen it.

[huamulan]

Its worth bearing in mind that Obama is trying to do what he does in a pretty hostile global economic environment.

Let's take America's 10 biggest export markets in 2007 (worth $734billion, or 5% of the USA's then economy, between them).

1 Canada (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.8% since 2007)
2 Mexico (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.9% since 2007)
3 China (has averaged a GDP growth of 11% since 2007)
4 Japan (has averaged a GDP growth of -0.3% since 2007)
5 UK (has averaged a GDP growth of 0% since 2007)
6 Germany (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.8% since 2007)
7 S. Korea (has averaged a GDP growth of 4.5% since 2007)
8 Netherlands (has averaged a GDP growth of 1% since 2007)
9 France (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.3% since 2007)
10 Taiwan (no data for some reason, probably included under China)

Bear in mind that almost everyone got fucked hard, particularly the West, in 2007 and this in turn fucked America hard. Europe isn't a vital trade ally of the US but in 2007 it was big enough to be worth several % of the USA's GDP. And look at Europe now.

That the USA is coping with this (your GDP is currently growing) says relatively good things about the USA's current policy, to me.

http://trade.gov/publications/pdfs/tm_091208.pdf
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY. ... &sort=desc

[thegreekdog]

Yeah, I think the point is your case can stand on its own merits. Introducing all the UFO and Bigfoot stuff doesn't strengthen it.

This is also my issue with Phatscotty's arguments. He relies too much on videos of Glenn Beck and a special on the American Revolution or random bar or chart graphs. I agree with most of his economic political stances, but I cringe when I see a Glenn Beck segment.

Phatscotty's point (I think) and something I agree with is that I would be okay with paying more taxes if I thought that Congress had any inclination whatsoever to cut the budget significantly. Since they don't have that inclination (no matter the political party), I am not inclined to pay more money in taxes.

Its worth bearing in mind that Obama is trying to do what he does in a pretty hostile global economic environment.

What's he trying to do exactly? I'm not sure the president has much of anything to do with economy and Congress would pass any tax hikes or cuts (and yes, the president signs those). While I think people vote with their wallets/pocket books, I think it's a misplaced way to go about voting.

[huamulan]

I'm talking about trying to stimulate growth in the economy and create jobs, which I would imagine is Obama's #1 priority.

[Woodruff]

Phatscotty's point (I think) and something I agree with is that I would be okay with paying more taxes if I thought that Congress had any inclination whatsoever to cut the budget significantly. Since they don't have that inclination (no matter the political party), I am not inclined to pay more money in taxes.

Phatscotty has said that, yes. And this is, to me, really the ONLY sound argument against raising taxes against some tax brackets/groups. It is a sound argument, and one that I find difficulty in arguing with. History bears it out all too well.

[BigBallinStalin]

The public sector produces money for the private sector as well. The government buys arms and construction materials from private providers and people on public salaries/welfare will use their income to buy goods and services from the private sector. It's also worth bearing in mind that governments provide significant economic incentives to the private sector to do things such as develop green technology and employ more people (without which incentives the private sector usually won't bother doing these things).

Money flow in a Keynesian economy looks something like this:



What, really, is the point in shrinking the public sector?

fixed

Anyway, if what you post is true, then why not cut out the middle man (businesses) by nationalizing that sector?

[BigBallinStalin]

Its worth bearing in mind that Obama is trying to do what he does in a pretty hostile global economic environment.

Let's take America's 10 biggest export markets in 2007 (worth $734billion, or 5% of the USA's then economy, between them).

1 Canada (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.8% since 2007)
2 Mexico (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.9% since 2007)
3 China (has averaged a GDP growth of 11% since 2007)
4 Japan (has averaged a GDP growth of -0.3% since 2007)
5 UK (has averaged a GDP growth of 0% since 2007)
6 Germany (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.8% since 2007)
7 S. Korea (has averaged a GDP growth of 4.5% since 2007)
8 Netherlands (has averaged a GDP growth of 1% since 2007)
9 France (has averaged a GDP growth of 0.3% since 2007)
10 Taiwan (no data for some reason, probably included under China)

Bear in mind that almost everyone got fucked hard, particularly the West, in 2007 and this in turn fucked America hard. Europe isn't a vital trade ally of the US but in 2007 it was big enough to be worth several % of the USA's GDP. And look at Europe now.

That the USA is coping with this (your GDP is currently growing) says relatively good things about the USA's current policy, to me.

http://trade.gov/publications/pdfs/tm_091208.pdf
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY. ... &sort=desc

If an increasing GDP is your indicator of great things to come, then surely whatever the US government was doing before 2008 was "saying relatively good things" too.

[saxitoxin]

your GDP is currently growing

After the first 2-year drop, U.S. GDP grew throughout the Great Depression.

So did unemployment until FDR declared war against everyone. Then, within 4 years, unemployment fell from 15% to 3% after 450,000 members of the workforce had been killed-off. FDR was an economic genius. "Kill the unemployed" was a really innovative policy to decrease the number of unemployed.

[thegreekdog]

your GDP is currently growing

After the first 2-year drop, U.S. GDP grew throughout the Great Depression.

So did unemployment until FDR declared war against everyone. Then, within 4 years, unemployment fell from 15% to 3% after 450,000 members of the workforce had been killed-off. FDR was an economic genius. "Kill the unemployed" was a really innovative policy to decrease the number of unemployed.

Shut up. FDR was the greatest president ever and his economic policies were awesome. World War II had nothing to do with getting us out of the Great Depression. [Insert backhanded witty comment here]

I miss Sultan.

[Woodruff]

I miss Sultan.

God, I don't. You've mentioned how I may not like some folks...Sultan is one of the very, very few on this site that I actually did dislike.