Group Think

[PLAYER57832]

The civil war was fought over whether the states had the right to leave the union if they disliked the rules imposed. Some of the problems had to do with slavery, because slavery represented part of the power structure in the south.

The war might not have been fought over slavery specifically, but if it were not for slavery, it is not so likely the war would have ever happened.

[Phatscotty]

I have no issue with some CEO coming out and being anti-gay marriage; but im certainly not going to let it slide, and try to ensure that everyone is aware of his stance.

So, were you letting everyone know of Obama's position on gay marriage LAST YEAR when he was against it???????

Good point....a little too good It's cool they all knowingly voted for bigoted Obama though in 2008.

[Lootifer]

I have no issue with some CEO coming out and being anti-gay marriage; but im certainly not going to let it slide, and try to ensure that everyone is aware of his stance.

So, were you letting everyone know of Obama's position on gay marriage LAST YEAR when he was against it???????

Good point....a little too good It's cool they all knowingly voted for bigoted Obama though in 2008.

Dont worry bro, no need to read the two posts that address Jays comment.

[Phatscotty]

So, is the only way for a religious person to cease being a bigot to denounce their religion?

[crispybits]

Not all religious people are bigots, religious people that follow non-bigoted religions are not bigots. As far as I'm aware, for example, no professed worshipper in the church of the flying spaghetti monster is a bigot because of that faith, yet they claim religious belief (even if that is only that divinity opposes dogma)

[Phatscotty]

Not all religious people are bigots, religious people that follow non-bigoted religions are not bigots. As far as I'm aware, for example, no professed worshipper in the church of the flying spaghetti monster is a bigot because of that faith, yet they claim religious belief (even if that is only that divinity opposes dogma)

k, just know it was stated earlier that "all major religions of the world" and their texts.... no offense to flying spaghetti

btw, more seriously, which religions are non-bigoted?

[crispybits]

Maybe Buddhists? Though I don't know the exact nature of all of their precepts and I think there is argument about whether it can even qualify as a religion.

Possibly pagans / wiccans too. Again I have never studied the details of those two though I'm just going from the pocket guide version that I've been educated with by life.

Pretty much all the other major ones are though, because they claim to have the only correct version of how to live your life. If you subscribe to one of the big ones then you're pretty much guaranteed to be bigoted to some extent.

That's not really the problem though. Bigotry that simply states "My God is better / realer / truer than your God" is fine, you religious types can go off and argue until you're blue in the face about that without affecting society. Bigotry that states "My God says that this is true therefore everyone has to follow that rule, even if they do not follow my religion" is a different thing, and is what garners more vocal opposition. You have made a choice / commitment / leap of faith / whatever and you live your life by rules X, Y and Z, but it does not necessarily follow that you have any right to force others to follow those same rules.

[Nola_Lifer]

Round and round in circles we go.

[jay_a2j]

Maybe Buddhists? Though I don't know the exact nature of all of their precepts and I think there is argument about whether it can even qualify as a religion.

Possibly pagans / wiccans too. Again I have never studied the details of those two though I'm just going from the pocket guide version that I've been educated with by life.

Pretty much all the other major ones are though, because they claim to have the only correct version of how to live your life. If you subscribe to one of the big ones then you're pretty much guaranteed to be bigoted to some extent.

That's not really the problem though. Bigotry that simply states "My God is better / realer / truer than your God" is fine, you religious types can go off and argue until you're blue in the face about that without affecting society. Bigotry that states "My God says that this is true therefore everyone has to follow that rule, even if they do not follow my religion" is a different thing, and is what garners more vocal opposition. You have made a choice / commitment / leap of faith / whatever and you live your life by rules X, Y and Z, but it does not necessarily follow that you have any right to force others to follow those same rules.

They are "bigoted" because they don't believe as you??????? Every major religion condemns homosexuality......and so they are all bigots! Get real, it may just be that you are a bigot when it comes to religion, morality etc.

[AndyDufresne]

Wait.

??????????????????????????? .......................

You forgot a few.


--Andy

[crispybits]

Yes I am, but the difference is that I am a bigot in opinion, many religious people are bigots through action.

Lets say I'm a Chicago Bulls fan and Fred Bloggs is a San Antonio Spurs fan. I say "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! I love the Chicago Bulls! They are the best team!" and partake of my preference. Fred Bloggs says "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! Everyone has to come with me and everyone has to love the San Antonio Spurs and accept them as the best team!"

Both of us are bigots, only one infringes on the freedoms of others. Can you guess which is which

PS having read your post properly no I am not a bigot for believing differently to you. I have at no point said that any religion is wrong or that God does not exist and the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran is entirely a propaganda exercise. I'm not intolerant of people practising their religion, in fact I encourage it, as long as that religion does not try and impose limits on my freedoms to believe, think and act as I wish while I choose not to follow it myself.

[jay_a2j]

Wait.

??????????????????????????? .......................

You forgot a few.


--Andy

Whew! That was close. Tx Andy!

[jay_a2j]

Yes I am, but the difference is that I am a bigot in opinion, many religious people are bigots through action.

Lets say I'm a Chicago Bulls fan and Fred Bloggs is a San Antonio Spurs fan. I say "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! I love the Chicago Bulls! They are the best team!" and partake of my preference. Fred Bloggs says "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! Everyone has to come with me and everyone has to love the San Antonio Spurs and accept them as the best team!"

Both of us are bigots, only one infringes on the freedoms of others. Can you guess which is which

PS having read your post properly no I am not a bigot for believing differently to you. I have at no point said that any religion is wrong or that God does not exist and the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran is entirely a propaganda exercise. I'm not intolerant of people practising their religion, in fact I encourage it, as long as that religion does not try and impose limits on my freedoms to believe, think and act as I wish while I choose not to follow it myself.

This is a waste of time. You can't have a debate with people who do not agree on the basics. This is why all these attempts fail.

On one side you have those who believe in absolute right and wrong. (Which must be set by a higher power)

On the other side you have those who believe that right and wrong is set up by man and differs by culture. (Most do not believe in a higher power)



So, there either is absolute right and wrong (divinely set) or there is no such thing as right and wrong (its subjective)


I'm in the first camp, you are in the second.


Have a nice day.

[Nola_Lifer]

Yes I am, but the difference is that I am a bigot in opinion, many religious people are bigots through action.

Lets say I'm a Chicago Bulls fan and Fred Bloggs is a San Antonio Spurs fan. I say "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! I love the Chicago Bulls! They are the best team!" and partake of my preference. Fred Bloggs says "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! Everyone has to come with me and everyone has to love the San Antonio Spurs and accept them as the best team!"

Both of us are bigots, only one infringes on the freedoms of others. Can you guess which is which

PS having read your post properly no I am not a bigot for believing differently to you. I have at no point said that any religion is wrong or that God does not exist and the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran is entirely a propaganda exercise. I'm not intolerant of people practising their religion, in fact I encourage it, as long as that religion does not try and impose limits on my freedoms to believe, think and act as I wish while I choose not to follow it myself.

This is a waste of time. You can't have a debate with people who do not agree on the basics. This is why all these attempts fail.

On one side you have those who believe in absolute right and wrong. (Which must be set by a higher power)

On the other side you have those who believe that right and wrong is set up by man and differs by culture. (Most do not believe in a higher power)



So, there either is absolute right and wrong (divinely set) or there is no such thing as right and wrong (its subjective)


I'm in the first camp, you are in the second.


Have a nice day.

It isn't subjective it is relative. Why can't you believe that right and wrong is setup by man and not believe in a higher power. This is what is wrong with most of your thinking. If your not this then you are that. Break down your dualistic thinking and you will see that things aren't black and white. Nor are they gray and blue. You divide people because it is easier to target them that way. You separate yourself from them so that you can make yourself feel better about difference or to easily justify yourself. This is why I say people are bigots because they can't see that there is more than just this way and that way but there are many ways.

[crispybits]

And here I was thinking we were talking about me being a bigot because I disagree with you, depsite the fact I'm perfectly tolerant of your right to hold any opinion you like as long as you do not force it on me in practice..... I didn't realise it was a discussion about the origin of morality and our basic right to hold our own opinions.

Have a nice day yourself!

Edit - Nola-Lifer - I think he can't accept shades of grey or relative judgements becuase the only standard he uses is "allowed by my magic book" or "not allowed by my magic book". There's no room for any free thought in that, which is handy given that in my experience a lot of the people who abide by that standard are fairly incapable of it.

[Phatscotty]

Yes I am, but the difference is that I am a bigot in opinion, many religious people are bigots through action.

Lets say I'm a Chicago Bulls fan and Fred Bloggs is a San Antonio Spurs fan. I say "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! I love the Chicago Bulls! They are the best team!" and partake of my preference. Fred Bloggs says "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! Everyone has to come with me and everyone has to love the San Antonio Spurs and accept them as the best team!"

Both of us are bigots, only one infringes on the freedoms of others. Can you guess which is which

PS having read your post properly no I am not a bigot for believing differently to you. I have at no point said that any religion is wrong or that God does not exist and the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran is entirely a propaganda exercise. I'm not intolerant of people practising their religion, in fact I encourage it, as long as that religion does not try and impose limits on my freedoms to believe, think and act as I wish while I choose not to follow it myself.

Don't fret. The only people I have called a bigot are the ones I showed publicly saying they hope people choke and have heart attacks and get diabetes.... by far the easiest call on what is truly bigoted and what is not

[Nola_Lifer]

Yes I am, but the difference is that I am a bigot in opinion, many religious people are bigots through action.

Lets say I'm a Chicago Bulls fan and Fred Bloggs is a San Antonio Spurs fan. I say "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! I love the Chicago Bulls! They are the best team!" and partake of my preference. Fred Bloggs says "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! Everyone has to come with me and everyone has to love the San Antonio Spurs and accept them as the best team!"

Both of us are bigots, only one infringes on the freedoms of others. Can you guess which is which

PS having read your post properly no I am not a bigot for believing differently to you. I have at no point said that any religion is wrong or that God does not exist and the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran is entirely a propaganda exercise. I'm not intolerant of people practising their religion, in fact I encourage it, as long as that religion does not try and impose limits on my freedoms to believe, think and act as I wish while I choose not to follow it myself.

Don't fret. The only people I have called a bigot are the ones I showed publicly saying they hope people choke and have heart attacks and get diabetes.... by far the easiest call on what is truly bigoted and what is not

Who cares what you say? Bigotry isn't just hatred. I showed you the definition and you choose to ignore that definition and make your own up.

[Phatscotty]

Yes I am, but the difference is that I am a bigot in opinion, many religious people are bigots through action.

Lets say I'm a Chicago Bulls fan and Fred Bloggs is a San Antonio Spurs fan. I say "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! I love the Chicago Bulls! They are the best team!" and partake of my preference. Fred Bloggs says "I'm going to the game tonight. Woop woop! Everyone has to come with me and everyone has to love the San Antonio Spurs and accept them as the best team!"

Both of us are bigots, only one infringes on the freedoms of others. Can you guess which is which

PS having read your post properly no I am not a bigot for believing differently to you. I have at no point said that any religion is wrong or that God does not exist and the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran is entirely a propaganda exercise. I'm not intolerant of people practising their religion, in fact I encourage it, as long as that religion does not try and impose limits on my freedoms to believe, think and act as I wish while I choose not to follow it myself.

Don't fret. The only people I have called a bigot are the ones I showed publicly saying they hope people choke and have heart attacks and get diabetes.... by far the easiest call on what is truly bigoted and what is not

Who cares what you say? Bigotry isn't just hatred. I showed you the definition and you choose to ignore that definition and make your own up.

What? lol There is no need to get defensive. It's just an example of real bigotry, nothing more.

[crispybits]

Yes, threatening people with really nasty things because they don't agree with you is definitely a really bad thing to do and anyone who does it is definitely a bigot. But wait....

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Revelation 14:10
He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

2 Peter 2:6
If by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth



Sidenote - am I going to be "smote" soon? *glances upwards nervously*

[GreecePwns]

They are "bigoted" because they don't believe as you??????? Every major religion condemns homosexuality......and so they are all bigots! Get real, it may just be that you are a bigot when it comes to religion, morality etc.

You are bigoted toward other religions and moral positions by not allowing churches/people with differing moral positions that wish to marry homosexuals do so. The only defense the anti-gay marriage side has given is that "my church/moral positions are better than your and/or are the only true and correct moral positions."

This is an example of bigotry. And for the sake of this forum, I like others will clarify by calling it a bad form of bigotry since it is based on state sponsored discrimination, restriction of freedom and moral elitism.

Good bigotry is the type that is bigoted when it comes to things like state sponsored discrimination and restriction of freedom. I am a good bigot by saying that your moral code and your religion has no place ruling over all other citizens, regardless of what they believe.

I think it is intolerable. After several lengthy discussions on the issue, there is a lack of a proper defense for the above position (the "my church/moral positions are better than your and/or are the only true and correct moral positions"), and until a proper defense of this position is made, there is no reason this position should be tolerated in the political debate arena.

[Nola_Lifer]

They are "bigoted" because they don't believe as you??????? Every major religion condemns homosexuality......and so they are all bigots! Get real, it may just be that you are a bigot when it comes to religion, morality etc.

You are bigoted toward other religions and moral positions by not allowing churches/people with differing moral positions that wish to marry homosexuals do so. The only defense the anti-gay marriage side has given is that "my church/moral positions are better than your and/or are the only true and correct moral positions."

This is an example of bigotry. And for the sake of this forum, I like others will clarify by calling it a bad form of bigotry since it is based on state sponsored discrimination, restriction of freedom and moral elitism.

Good bigotry is the type that is bigoted when it comes to things like state sponsored discrimination and restriction of freedom. I am a good bigot by saying that your moral code and your religion has no place ruling over all other citizens, regardless of what they believe.

I think it is intolerable. After several lengthy discussions on the issue, there is a lack of a proper defense for the above position (the "my church/moral positions are better than your and/or are the only true and correct moral positions"), and until a proper defense of this position is made, there is no reason this position should be tolerated in the political debate arena.

+1 Well said. I think we should frame this.

[patrickaa317]

I am a good bigot

Someone needs to put this in their signature.

[PLAYER57832]

On one side you have those who believe in absolute right and wrong. (Which must be set by a higher power)

On the other side you have those who believe that right and wrong is set up by man and differs by culture. (Most do not believe in a higher power)

Nope, you miss at least one option.

See, some people feel that some right and wrong issues are inherent, are necessary to humanity essentially. Murder (not killing, but murder) is wrong in every culture. They may differ on when it goes from killing to murder, on when killing is justified, but the idea that someone cannot just randomly kill others for no reason is universally bad.

The problem you have here, jay is that you are aware of only the narrowest of options. You truly do not know enough of human culture to make any such assertions as you are making.

[jay_a2j]

On one side you have those who believe in absolute right and wrong. (Which must be set by a higher power)

On the other side you have those who believe that right and wrong is set up by man and differs by culture. (Most do not believe in a higher power)

Nope, you miss at least one option.

See, some people feel that some right and wrong issues are inherent, are necessary to humanity essentially. Murder (not killing, but murder) is wrong in every culture. They may differ on when it goes from killing to murder, on when killing is justified, but the idea that someone cannot just randomly kill others for no reason is universally bad.

The problem you have here, jay is that you are aware of only the narrowest of options. You truly do not know enough of human culture to make any such assertions as you are making.

Thanks for proving my point. God either makes right, right and wrong, wrong or neither exists. "You have heard eye for an eye but I tell you the truth, if someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the left also." Murder OR killing is wrong, in ANY circumstance. Or it is wrong in none.

The problem you have here is you try to cram morality into a shape you are comfortable with. If it doesn't fit your mold then it's unimportant and subject to opinion. Failing to realize that it is God who decides what is right and wrong, not man.

[BigBallinStalin]

Oh, look, guys! I found where the bad bigots are! Hey, jay and PS! We need you at that Gay Marriage thread to overcome those obstacles in order to demonstrate to us that you two aren't bad bigots.

K-thanks!