free will vs omniscience

[suggs]

No, I didnt say that. Indeed God may exist. Just cos it cant be proven, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
But you can't just say to people "Ah, you don't understand, becuase God is so copmplex and mysterious" becuase this means its no longer a debate, but just a series of assertions.
I could then reply " Ah, but I have psychic powers Player, you don't understand".
You can't prove otherwise.
But its hardly a sensible or fruitful way to conduct an argument.
You'll have to better than that. Player.

[PLAYER57832]

No, I didnt say that. Indeed God may exist. Just cos it cant be proven, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
But you can't just say to people "Ah, you don't understand, becuase God is so copmplex and mysterious" becuase this means its no longer a debate, but just a series of assertions.
I could then reply " Ah, but I have psychic powers Player, you don't understand".
You can't prove otherwise.
But its hardly a sensible or fruitful way to conduct an argument.
You'll have to better than that. Player.

I did, but you don't like my answer. God is, by definition beyond what we can understand.
It might not "make good debate", but then, I have already said many, many times that proving God exists is plain impossible. Read my answer to McDeFe... if you can answer that question, then you approach understanding God ... but, I believe, it would still only be an approach to understanding.

You don't have to like the answer, but it is my answer. We are limited to human concepts, human understanding ... and English. God is, by definition, beyond all that.

[MeDeFe]

You are sort of correct ... but NOT entirely. You see, the logic you are speaking of involves only those things human beings know. That is ALWAYS the limit to human logic... by definition.

Actually, the logic I speak of involves no "things" at all, but merely the relations between undefined placeholders.

God is by definition outside of that. It is not a "cop out". It is the nature of God, it is part of what God has to be to be our creator. That IS logic ... the creater must be greater than the creation.

Defining god to be outside anything we humans can perceive or even think of, and then, again by definition, allowing god to directly interact with this universe and us humans in it, is a cop out.
And no, a "creator" does not have to be "greater" than the "creation", claiming that is not logic, it's "deducting from experiences within human societies that have defined the human as the greatest being on earth". Humans have defined themselves as the non plus ultra in this world; a painter is "greater" than their paintings, a programmer is "greater" than the code they write. But what's "greater" supposed to mean, how do you compare a human and pigments on a piece of cloth, or a human and a sequence of binary symbols that will execute a program if applied correctly? This "greater" is a concept that is defined solely by the very experiences and perceptions you claim god is beyond.
Food for thought: What happens if you do not presuppose that the universe is a creation? No need to reply, I'm just throwing it into the room.

You see... if a then b, means if there is always a, then there is always b. BUT, the converse is not true. There could be b, but not a. Also, this says absolutely nothing about c, d,e, f, g... etc. Even in our world, even in the world as we understand it. That is actually the most basic error, the MOST COMMON error made in most scientific endeavors and in logical arguments ... not taking all possibilities into account. When discussing God, the possibilities are limitless. They are not even limited to concepts that we are capable of knowing, never mind discussing.

Going off on tangents? It was really just meant as an example of why logic is not necessarily immediately comprehensible.

I draw you back to my question that you did not answer. Define time, fully and logically. To be full and complete, this definition must include what happened before time existed or explain how there could be a before/after time existed. When you can do that, you might be a step closer to understanding God ... but likely only a step closer.

The changing of states within existence?
I think that could cover it. Without change, no time.
Now give me your definition, one good turn deserves another.

[Backglass]

You don't have to like the answer, but it is my answer. We are limited to human concepts, human understanding ... and English. God is, by definition, beyond all that.

All the gods man has worshiped throughout time are "beyond all that".

But all the others were wrong....correct?

[Snorri1234]

Word.

[PLAYER57832]

You don't have to like the answer, but it is my answer. We are limited to human concepts, human understanding ... and English. God is, by definition, beyond all that.

All the gods man has worshiped throughout time are "beyond all that".

But all the others were wrong....correct?

Depends. If I cannot prove it false, it might be. I never say other than that my belief is my BELIEF.

This is not a "logic" debate at all. It is a debate of beliefs. I believe one thing. You believe something else. There is no way to prove or logically explain either position. That is the bottom line.

[Juan_Bottom]

PLAYER57832 wrote:
If God exists (and I believe he does, of course), God must, by definition, be outside everything we know and conceive.
So God exists, because (s)he can't logically exist???

I "get it" Player, cauze I remember this!

There is no way to prove or logically explain either position.

--Though I take offence to this. You're the one dissmissing facts, not I. I'm incorporating them.

[LocutusofBorg01]

I haven't read the whole post, but I'll answer the topic...

The fact is no one can say there is no God. The only other possibility is evolution, which is so absurd and unlikely that it could never happen. No one can prove God exists, but it's rather self-evident.

Now to the real question, is God in control or just along for the ride (or just a clock-winder?) There's no way he could just be along for the ride. First, if he created something, it would make sense that He would be able to control it. Also, there are so many "coincidences" throughout history that it would be impossible for humans to be orchestrating it. There's more evidence that God is not just along for the ride, but I'll leave it at that.

Now for the clock-winder argument. It doesn't make any sense. Why would God create the world, then just say, "Go for it, good luck." It would be like me creating a company then never managing it, or even caring about it. It wouldn't make any sense.

So the only logical option is that God is all-powerful, omniscient, and in control. We know that to be true from the Bible (I know some of you don't believe in the Bible, but I do, so I'll argue from it). "Man plans in his heart, but the Lord directs his steps." (paraphrased) "Who are you to say we will go to such-and-such a place, and make a profit for such-and-such a time. Instead you should say if it is God's will you will go to such-and-such a place..." (paraphrased). In other words, God directs everything that will happen. Like I said earlier, it's also obvious from history.

Now, man somehow does have a choice somehow. We also know that man has a responsibility for his own actions. God ordained from eternity past everything that will happened, yet He never made anyone sin, and man is responsible for his own sin. How does that work? I don't know. It's not a contradiction in the Bible, just something the human mind can't comprehend. Hope that makes sense...

[heavycola]

I haven't read the whole post, but I'll answer the topic...

The fact is no one can say there is no God. The only other possibility is evolution, which is so absurd and unlikely that it could never happen.

stopped reading here. Way to abort your credibility in two sentences. Is that some sort of record?

[Backglass]

The fact is no one can say there is no God.

I can. Magical gods (any of them) don't exist. The only "fact" here is that magical beings are the invention of men. Men who need direction and cannot make it in life without them.

The only other possibility is evolution, which is so absurd and unlikely that it could never happen.

There is tons of evidence for evolution. You choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your cults view of the world.

No one can prove God exists, but it's rather self-evident.

Oh really? Where is "it" then? There is no evidence whatsoever...all you have are your warm, fuzzy feelings and faith/hope/belief that magical super beings are watching our every move.

So the only logical option is that God is all-powerful, omniscient, and in control.

Logical? It's logical that a magical super being exists in the sky, even though no human has ever seen or heard from him...he impregnates earth women...his half-god offspring run around performing magical feats...and then 2000 years pass without a peep?

Yes...perfectly logical.

We know that to be true from the Bible (I know some of you don't believe in the Bible, but I do, so I'll argue from it).

Ahh yes...typical circular logic. Gods wrote the book....the book says gods exist....so gods are real!

All you have is a story book...written by a primitive, superstitious people. To rely solely on this as your evidence is very weak.

How does that work? I don't know. It's not a contradiction in the Bible, just something the human mind can't comprehend. Hope that makes sense...

Of course...this is the age-old cop-out. If you come to a road-block or question, just brush it away as "something we mortal men cannot comprehend".

The same words were spoken thousands of years ago about conception...and disease...and the planets...and the sun...and the tides...I could go on and on. And then, we figured out how they worked and one less "godly mystery" was solved.

You live in a fantasy land...take off your blinders and look around.

[joecoolfrog]

I haven't read the whole post, but I'll answer the topic...

The fact is no one can say there is no God. The only other possibility is evolution, which is so absurd and unlikely that it could never happen. No one can prove God exists, but it's rather self-evident.

Now to the real question, is God in control or just along for the ride (or just a clock-winder?) There's no way he could just be along for the ride. First, if he created something, it would make sense that He would be able to control it. Also, there are so many "coincidences" throughout history that it would be impossible for humans to be orchestrating it. There's more evidence that God is not just along for the ride, but I'll leave it at that.

Now for the clock-winder argument. It doesn't make any sense. Why would God create the world, then just say, "Go for it, good luck." It would be like me creating a company then never managing it, or even caring about it. It wouldn't make any sense.

So the only logical option is that God is all-powerful, omniscient, and in control. We know that to be true from the Bible (I know some of you don't believe in the Bible, but I do, so I'll argue from it). "Man plans in his heart, but the Lord directs his steps." (paraphrased) "Who are you to say we will go to such-and-such a place, and make a profit for such-and-such a time. Instead you should say if it is God's will you will go to such-and-such a place..." (paraphrased). In other words, God directs everything that will happen. Like I said earlier, it's also obvious from history.

Now, man somehow does have a choice somehow. We also know that man has a responsibility for his own actions. God ordained from eternity past everything that will happened, yet He never made anyone sin, and man is responsible for his own sin. How does that work? I don't know. It's not a contradiction in the Bible, just something the human mind can't comprehend. Hope that makes sense...

5000 years ago man was living in caves and acknowledging unseen Gods in the sky, some of you guys haven't come far have you ? In short your ridiculous post simply proves how ignorant and narrow minded you and your like are- its pathetic and if there was a God he would be enbarassed by his ineptitude in creating such a blatant design flaw in certain humans.

[PLAYER57832]

wrote:
If God exists (and I believe he does, of course), God must, by definition, be outside everything we know and conceive.

So God exists, because (s)he can't logically exist???

I "get it" Player, cauze I remember this!

You twist words. First, there is a big difference between being able to logically prove something to another human being and whether something is true or false. Something can be true, but not be proveable. Can you prove love? Not with straight logic. (and, don't bother trying to say you can ... the greatest logicians on earth have proven you cannot)

Also, Logic is by definition limited to our universe and, further, human perceptions of our surroundings. It works, here, but God invented all this ... and more. So it is quite illogical to think that God would be limited by his own creations.

There is no way to prove or logically explain either position.

--Though I take offence to this. You're the one dissmissing facts, not I. I'm incorporating them.

No, I use facts as well. I just say they have a limit, because as a scientist and a logician I KNOW that is the truth. Saying there is a lot "out there" that we cannot explain is not "copping out" it is admitting reality. Denying reality is the ultimate error in logic (and note, I use "reality" in the generally accepted definition ... whatever IS, is reality .. not the quantum physics/philisophical definition).

Whether God exists nor not, logic STILL has limits. You can argue that we may eventually discover everything through logic, but that is a belief. Right now, you cannot prove everything through logic. Right now, you cannot even measure or perceive everything.

As for God, God is pretty much outside anything human beings can prove, definitely outside what we can easily explain, and perhaps outside anything we are capable of understanding ... ever. Almost anyone who speaks of God (unless to condemn) will say the same. As a scientist, I do leave open the possibility that "some day" these things WILL be proven, one way or another. As Christian, I have enough proof.

To quote a recently published biologist. As a scientist, I acknowledge that we cannot prove 100% that many chemicals are harmful. As a mother, I don't have to have 100% undeniable proof that something is harmful to my child to want to avoid it.

[PLAYER57832]

I haven't read the whole post, but I'll answer the topic...

The fact is no one can say there is no God. The only other possibility is evolution, which is so absurd and unlikely that it could never happen. No one can prove God exists, but it's rather self-evident.

Evolution is not in opposition to God. And much of Evolutionary theory has, truly, been proven. Ignoring this shows that you have taken great pains to avoid educating yourself .. it does not do credit to Christianity. Christ taught us to seek truth, not to deny it.

But, this has been debated ad nauseum ... and the evidence is most certainly out there. Ignore it and you will continue to be ridiculed. No one will hear anything past those first few words, because you make it so plain you ignore any logic or intelligent research.

Sorry, but as a Christian, I speak the truth and I am plain tired of you folks DISTORTING the Bible to match your narrow perceptions. YOU are placing God in a box, not the Bible.

[joecoolfrog]

I haven't read the whole post, but I'll answer the topic...

The fact is no one can say there is no God. The only other possibility is evolution, which is so absurd and unlikely that it could never happen. No one can prove God exists, but it's rather self-evident.

Evolution is not in opposition to God. And much of Evolutionary theory has, truly, been proven. Ignoring this shows that you have taken great pains to avoid educating yourself .. it does not do credit to Christianity. Christ taught us to seek truth, not to deny it.

But, this has been debated ad nauseum ... and the evidence is most certainly out there. Ignore it and you will continue to be ridiculed. No one will hear anything past those first few words, because you make it so plain you ignore any logic or intelligent research.

Sorry, but as a Christian, I speak the truth and I am plain tired of you folks DISTORTING the Bible to match your narrow perceptions. YOU are placing God in a box, not the Bible.

So easy to reconcile faith and scientific progress yet they choose to make themselves and their religion look foolish, hence my point about any self respecting God being embarassed to be associated with such pig headed idiots.

[MeDeFe]

Also, Logic is by definition limited to our universe and, further, human perceptions of our surroundings. It works, here, but God invented all this ... and more. So it is quite illogical to think that God would be limited by his own creations.

Say, what definition of logic are you using?

[Snorri1234]

The only other possibility is evolution, which is so absurd and unlikely that it could never happen.

Yeah, all that proof of it must be made up or something.

No one can prove God exists, but it's rather self-evident.

Why?
If it's self-evident, proof would be no problem right?

Now to the real question, is God in control or just along for the ride (or just a clock-winder?) There's no way he could just be along for the ride. First, if he created something, it would make sense that He would be able to control it. Also, there are so many "coincidences" throughout history that it would be impossible for humans to be orchestrating it. There's more evidence that God is not just along for the ride, but I'll leave it at that.

Why the hell would humans orchestrate coincidences?

Now for the clock-winder argument. It doesn't make any sense. Why would God create the world, then just say, "Go for it, good luck." It would be like me creating a company then never managing it, or even caring about it. It wouldn't make any sense.

lots of stuff makes no sense whatsoever. If God's existence cannot be proven by logic, then surely his actions are not defined by logic either and therefore making sense doesn't have to be something he does.

Creating a world, leaving lots of clues that he doesn't exist, waiting a few billions years for people to start existing, then leaving a bunch of arbitrary rules to follow while otherwise being condemned to hell doesn't make sense for an "all-loving" god either.

(I know some of you don't believe in the Bible, but I do, so I'll argue from it)

Well whoohooo for you man. That really lends your argument some credit!

"For my next trick I am going to argue the truth of communism and why it works by citing Das Kapital! I know some of you don't think communism works, but I'm going to respond to your claims by pointing out things Marx said which obviously have to be true because he said them!"

[suggs]

[LocutusofBorg01]

Evolution is the opposite of God. It denies that God exists, and no macro-evolutionary idea has ever been proven. EVERY test ever done has proven a young (and therefore created) earth.

Yeah, all that proof of it must be made up or something.

You're right. Here's some proof evolution cannot be true:

The genetic code for a human is closer to that of a fruit fly than an ape
An analysis of the salt content in the ocean shows the earth is 10,000 years old
Evolution denies the truth that life cannot come from non-life
It has been proven dinosaurs and human lived at the same time

Why the hell would humans orchestrate coincidences?

What I meant was it would be extremely odd for all of these things to happen if there was no God. Why is it EVERY nation that has every turned its back on God has fallen? Every nation that has begun to grossly contradict the Bible was destroyed/severely weakened within just a few years.

Well whoohooo for you man. That really lends your argument some credit!

Secular historians have said the Bible is a historically accurate book. There is more proof that the Bible we have today is the original text than there is proof for any other ancient book. One secular historian said "There is more proof for the existence of Jesus than for the existence of Julius Caesar."

Recently, the Exodus of Israel from Egypt was proven by the Egyptian chariots from that time period at the bottom of the Red Sea. Unless the Egyptians started throwing chariots off ships (and Egypt didn't have a navy at that point), there was an Exodus

[Neoteny]

You're right. Here's some proof evolution cannot be true:

The genetic code for a human is closer to that of a fruit fly than an ape

I think you should probably leave the science up to the scientists. I have the distinct idea that you don't know anything about genetics or evolution. Come back to me when you understand the concept of synteny.

Edit: on second thought, if you're open to being educated, I'll be more than willing to explain it to you. But if you are going to continue with baseless assertions, I'm just going to make fun of you.

[Backglass]

The genetic code for a human is closer to that of a fruit fly than an ape
An analysis of the salt content in the ocean shows the earth is 10,000 years old
Evolution denies the truth that life cannot come from non-life
It has been proven dinosaurs and human lived at the same time

Unbelievable...I am speechless.

Do you swallow everything somebody says without question if they are standing on a pulpit?

You are one of these nuts who think Science is a religion aren't you.

THIS is exactly what happens when cults are allowed to home school their kids. They grow up with fantastic notions of what is real and what isn't.

[Neoteny]

Hold up Backglass, I'm going to try this the framer's way...

LocutusofBorg01, this site can be used to compare the genomes of many of the organisms that have been sequenced, along with other helpful comparisons.

Here's a visual from such a comparison. This is a human and chimp genome side by side.



And here is a human and Drosophila (fruit fly) genome side by side.



As you can see, the most noticeable difference is that the fruit fly has a whopping six chromosomes, compared to our 23, and a chimp's 24. You really can't expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when you are making such a colossal error.

[Frigidus]

Well, the sciencey types lit you up, my turn.

Secular historians have said the Bible is a historically accurate book. There is more proof that the Bible we have today is the original text than there is proof for any other ancient book. One secular historian said "There is more proof for the existence of Jesus than for the existence of Julius Caesar."

OK, not even close. The Bible has likely been edited, mistranslated, and possibly had entire sections added and removed countless times since it's original creation. There are very few primary sources of literary form from that period that are undoubtedly in original form, and with all the copying that the Bible went through, I can say with almost 100% certainty that it is completely ridden with errors. Hell, of any book in all of history, the Bible is a front runner for the most tampered with.

Recently, the Exodus of Israel from Egypt was proven by the Egyptian chariots from that time period at the bottom of the Red Sea. Unless the Egyptians started throwing chariots off ships (and Egypt didn't have a navy at that point), there was an Exodus

Haha, where did you hear this? Source or it didn't happen (it didn't).

In conclusion, I feel that LocutusofBorg01 is a troll, as anyone who watches Star Trek enough to lift their user name from it can't be this stupid.

[Snorri1234]

The genetic code for a human is closer to that of a fruit fly than an ape

Blatant lie, as Neo has been so kind to show us.

An analysis of the salt content in the ocean shows the earth is 10,000 years old

Wait...what? Did you just try to prove evolution false by using a retarded method of dating the age of a planet which doesn't need oceans?

Evolution denies the truth that life cannot come from non-life

Rather presumptous to claim that is a "truth", instead of just some plain bullshit. Especially when you consider the fact that that is exactly what christians are claiming happened.

It has been proven dinosaurs and human lived at the same time

Say what????????

What I meant was it would be extremely odd for all of these things to happen if there was no God. Why is it EVERY nation that has every turned its back on God has fallen? Every nation that has begun to grossly contradict the Bible was destroyed/severely weakened within just a few years.

Wait....do you actually know anything about history?

Well whoohooo for you man. That really lends your argument some credit!

Secular historians have said the Bible is a historically accurate book. There is more proof that the Bible we have today is the original text than there is proof for any other ancient book. One secular historian said "There is more proof for the existence of Jesus than for the existence of Julius Caesar."

Wow, that's some backwards shit. I mean, even ignoring the blatantly obvious problem of Jesus existing vs jesus being divine, that statement still is a bunch of horsecrap. You're saying that a prominent figure in roman politics who had his face put on coins and conquered large parts of the world somehow had less people writing about him and making stuff of him than Jesus. Even after Julius Caesar's death there were many historians who referenced his life and work. The guy wrote a bunch of stuff, most importantly his letters to home about his conquests in france and other places. Anyone claiming that same shit you're saying better have some awesome new evidence that not only proves Jesus' existence but also invalidates everything written about Caesar both by himself and others.
http://draconem.vox.com/library/post/the-historicity-of-jesus-christ-vs-julius-caesar.html Check that link out.

[kagetora]

You're right. Here's some proof evolution cannot be true:

The genetic code for a human is closer to that of a fruit fly than an ape
An analysis of the salt content in the ocean shows the earth is 10,000 years old
Evolution denies the truth that life cannot come from non-life
It has been proven dinosaurs and human lived at the same time

Ho. Ly. Shit. Dude! Are you like 5 or something?

The genetic code for a human is closer to that of a fruit fly than an ape

Look at Neoteny's graphs. (I would also like to know where the hell you heard that fruit fly's are closer related to humans than monkeys.)

An analysis of the salt content in the ocean shows the earth is 10,000 years old

They have found terrestrial rocks that are over 3.5 million years old. Who gives shit about the oceans? They are constantly cycled. Salt increases at the bottom of the ocean. Salt sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

Evolution denies the truth that life cannot come from non-life

Truth? I don't think so. Scientists have created amino acids (building blocks of life) using electricity and a handful of basic elements.

It has been proven dinosaurs and human lived at the same time

When did the dinos die out? About 64 million years ago. The earliest recognizably bipedal protohuman was about 6 million years ago. About 58 million year difference!

Please site at least one source before you are dismissed by both sides as an ignorant and arrogant misfit.

[Neoteny]

My post was cooler than all of yours combined into one. Also, I was first.