A question for the religious

[MeDeFe]

Mathematics is considered a "hard" science for some reason.

[CrazyAnglican]

Consider me appalled by both examples.

That's kinda where I was going. I think it's more important to realize that abuse of authority comes in all forms and from all sides. It's just important not to be too quick to dismiss it as unimportant.

Mathematics is considered a "hard" science for some reason.

Yeah, that is kind of inconvenient, but true.

[Snorri1234]

So Juan gets the benefit of the doubt but not me

Nah. His example is just something that I understand how stupid it is. If I knew a lot about history and nothing about science I probably would react more to your post.

I have had a "sciency" education in highschool, so getting outraged about something I know nothing about is hard.

Okay, let me clarify. I made nothing under a 85% or so in any history class that I've taken, ever (aside from that one which I failed). I recently took a multi-state test to get certified to teach History and missed a perfect score by 3 points out of 200 and something possible points. Not to mention when it's customary to actually tell a student the weaknesses in their paper (so they can, you know , learn something). This individual returned a paper that had no critique on it at all. Just "Nice Try - F".

Okay that really makes your teacher an ignorant fool. You obviously know quite a lot about history, so that teacher really should have been fired. (Or whatever they do with stupid teachers.)

Sure, but good luck teaching hard sciences with a bunch of incompetent nutjob grammar, reading, and math teachers responsible for preparing your students for them. Not to mention why would you not be outraged by anyone abusing power to push an agenda.

Yeah I see your point. I wasn't really that clear there. I just don't hold history and stuff as high as exact courses. Probably due to my education too, though I never cared for history in school anyway. (Outside of school I thought it was fascinating but school was just very different.)

[CrazyAnglican]

........ so that teacher really should have been fired. (Or whatever they do with stupid teachers.)

Unfortunately, it's a lot like the business world they promote them so they can do less damage.

[PLAYER57832]

I am one of those state trained and accredited individuals. That means exactly nothing as far as this post goes though. The point was merely this. I agree wholeheartedly with you and Player. There are good and bad teachers in every system, school (public or private) and there are good and bad homeschoolers I'm sure. Joe's statement implied that homeschooling for religious purposes was unbalanced and (I'm assuming) neglectful in some way. I merely pointed out the success stories and people began saying how there are good and bad in all systems and approaches. I agree with this and it was what I wanted to bring the conversation around to anyway.

I imagine they do tend to be neglectful in at least one way, just because it is difficult to give a full spectrum education as just one person. I imagine there are many who are capable, but what are the odds?

You have to distinguish between the religious extremists here and the rest. All churches believe they are right, just as you believe you are right in what you think. They will pass on beliefs, just as you will. BUT the difference between ANY belief system and extremism is whether you allow exposure to those who disagree, in age-appropriate ways.

A GOOD education, whether from a Christian school, Secular School or Buddhist School teaches kids about the world around them, including ideas that they won't necessarily encounter in their own neighborhoods.

The extremists may skip whole subjects entirely, and often teach outright false information if it happens to meet their needs.

[PLAYER57832]

........ so that teacher really should have been fired. (Or whatever they do with stupid teachers.)

Unfortunately, it's a lot like the business world they promote them so they can do less damage.

Since Bush's "no child left behind" science education and creative thinking of any kind are being quickly eradicated.

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan, I still (as an educator) am outraged by your teacher's actions. From what you have said there are several things he's done that would get him censured or fired in my system (which is in Georgia btw Frigidus ). Other things you've mentioned like Bible Study are completely legal (assuming he wasn't grabbing kids in arm bars to get them to come). My point here is that he's a bad teacher (imo, from what you have said).

That really summed up every year I had with him. We had block scheduling, so I was in his classes every other day, for an hour and a half.

The lecture would start "A star is made this way...." and end "our bodies ar so complicated, too complicated to have simply evolved that way. That's why we must have been created."
Literally, that's his method.

Really, is it that he's a Christian or that he's a power abusing bigot that burns you up about him?

Let me get personal and take a step back, to better answer your question.

As a child, I had an awful lisp, and a terrible stutter. I needed to see a speech therapist(is it really spelled 'the rapist?' wow ). I skipped pre-school, but by kindergarten 9/10ths of my day was spent with a speech therapist. I even ended up going to a school outside of my district, because they had a better therapist. I hardly saw anyone from my grade, except during lunch/recess.
So anyway, until 6th grade, I didn't talk to anyone at my school. By that point, finally, I was taking most of the same classes as my classmates. But one thing I learned from Mrs Heater(my speech therapist) was a love of books. I read everything. I loved lituature more than anything. I had completely forsaken the real world.
But mid-way through sixth grade, my grandmother died. She had, until very recently to that moment, been the one who was raising me. A switch flipped somewhere inside of my head...
I can remember the first time I went out onto the playground and played soccer. A ball hit me square on the chin. I put down my novel, and drop-kicked that ball into forever... and they made me a goalie.
By 7th grade I no longer needed speech therapy. But I was still pretty quiet and shy. I remember very well that I had finished reading my 7th grade science book in the first month of school. But my teacher was a different kind of person than any I had delt with before. I easily could have tought that class, being a bookworm and all. But it made no difference. Yet it was his class that made me burst out from my shell. I though for surely my fellow classmates would rally behind me. But it didn't happen. Next I tried the school principle... which lead to a parent teacher conference. I couldn't get anyone to take my side. Everyone told me to just do the work and keep quiet... I tried it for a little while, but it made no difference... and I NEVER filled in a single "bonus question." He failed me twice a year for 6 years. I had to take correspondance courses to pass High School. I took two Science courses, College level History, and psychology . I passed every one with an A+. I was no idiot, but he failed me/us anyway. The crazy thing is, I wasn't the only student. I was just the only one who tried to do something about it.

That is where my hate for this man comes from. Not from his being Christian. Most Americans are Christian, and you don't see me saying anything hateful about them. It was all that...
He nearly flunked me out of school because I refused to convert.
And because I felt anxious and trapped, when I could get no one to stand up with me. He may have broke the others, but he never broke me.

I think the reason people responded more readily to Juan's outrage was the level of detail.

I think so too. And most people don't like to replace Science with Religion. It's a big No-No.

Consider me appalled by both examples.

Ditto! I just missed it...... sorry!
But I am amazed that you didn't drop-kick him. You should get him fired or something. It's too-late for me... but you can still end your nightmare!
Or how about we put a badger or something in his car? I have a live animal trap!

I do think that in general teaching is probably better these days than it was a few decades ago.

I am not convinced. But at least teachers can't dangle kids out of windows anymore. So hey... we won the war right?

Unfortunately, it's a lot like the business world they promote them so they can do less damage.

..........

Since Bush's "no child left behind" science education and creative thinking of any kind are being quickly eradicated.

It's so strnge but true. Did anyone here see Penn & Teller's Bullshit on the subject. Hilariously sad. I cannot understand how these schools are forcing teachers to teach creationism (absent any particular God) as a viable alternative to the big bang.

[Neoteny]

I am one of those state trained and accredited individuals. That means exactly nothing as far as this post goes though. The point was merely this. I agree wholeheartedly with you and Player. There are good and bad teachers in every system, school (public or private) and there are good and bad homeschoolers I'm sure. Joe's statement implied that homeschooling for religious purposes was unbalanced and (I'm assuming) neglectful in some way. I merely pointed out the success stories and people began saying how there are good and bad in all systems and approaches. I agree with this and it was what I wanted to bring the conversation around to anyway.

I imagine they do tend to be neglectful in at least one way, just because it is difficult to give a full spectrum education as just one person. I imagine there are many who are capable, but what are the odds?

You have to distinguish between the religious extremists here and the rest. All churches believe they are right, just as you believe you are right in what you think. They will pass on beliefs, just as you will. BUT the difference between ANY belief system and extremism is whether you allow exposure to those who disagree, in age-appropriate ways.

A GOOD education, whether from a Christian school, Secular School or Buddhist School teaches kids about the world around them, including ideas that they won't necessarily encounter in their own neighborhoods.

The extremists may skip whole subjects entirely, and often teach outright false information if it happens to meet their needs.

No, I don't think I need to distinguish here. I'm an extremist, so I might be a bad example, but if I were educated a child, I would feel that my capabilities for teaching her American History would be gypping her out of a decent history education. My statement had nothing to do with alignment, only with capability.

[Backglass]

No, that's true. Super Zombie Sky-Daddy will only accept it if you say the words really hard, and with lots of "very's".

Please note:

SkyDaddy® is a registered trademark of Backglass Heavy Industries.

That is all.

[PLAYER57832]

It was also rather hard to really relate to because for all I know your teacher had a very valid point or something.

So Juan gets the benefit of the doubt but not me Okay, let me clarify. I made nothing under a 85% or so in any history class that I've taken, ever (aside from that one which I failed). I recently took a multi-state test to get certified to teach History and missed a perfect score by 3 points out of 200 and something possible points. Not to mention when it's customary to actually tell a student the weaknesses in their paper (so they can, you know , learn something). This individual returned a paper that had no critique on it at all. Just "Nice Try - F".

thinking only one factor caused the fall of anything is rather silly indeed.

Bingo. Lead lined pipes, centuries of corruption, one possibly clinically disturbed autocrat after another in charge (most Roman Emperors were capable, but you can't overlook the likes of Commodus, Caligula, etc.). Never getting around to actually putting a mechanism in place to choose the best person for the job of head hancho. None of those things could contribute to the downfall of a government could they? Had to be the Christians.

I'm also not very outraged because it wasn't a science-teacher.

So more than 80% of the teachers in the world can be incompetent nutjobs and you don't care as long as they're not scientists. I have to admit I'm speechless there.

I cannot find your original statement... I know it is there, but I keep missing it apparently.

Anyway, the differance between science and history is that history is, largely opinion. That is, when stuff happened, who did what, etc. are all facts. Science is ALL about facts. Definitely, some facts in each instance are not proveable and therefore there can be plenty of discussion about which are the real facts, BUT there is a big difference between a history teacher saying that He believes x caused y and a science teacher completely dismissing reams of proven evidence and recognized facts to support a particular theory, just because he does not like that theory. Poking legitimate holes ... is fine. In fact, a good teacher will TRY to encourage students to poke holes where they have the ability to do so. HOWEVER, in the case of Creationist "teaching", they don't do that. They, instead, present completely erroneous information and put it forward as fact and completely deny real and valid proofs that have been made. I went into some of the specifics with Locutus, more in the Creation Thread.

In history, to contrast, a lot is about why stuff happened. "Why" is almost never proveable. Even if someone produces a book and says "look, the guy says this.." someone can still claim .. well, he was lying or yes, I know he believed those were his motives, but ... etc, etc, etc.

One rule I am sure you know well... getting a good grade is as much about retelling the teacher's view as in learning empiracle evidence. In other words, if the teacher says that Reagan got elected because he wore a blue suit on the 20th of July 1962. (and Please... I don't know if he did or not) .. then when that question comes up in an exam, you should say "he got elected because he wore a blue suit on the 20th of July in 1962. You can then take that to the head of the school, perhaps, or write a book (if it is a prevalent theory), etc.

Also, and again ... I have not found your post ... I strongly suspect you were talking about a College course, whereas Juan was talking about a Jr High or High school class. This, too makes a huge differance. In high school, teachers need to stick to general, agreed-upon curricula. There can be some variation, sure, but to deny evolution ... is to do every child in that school an estraordinary disservice. AND to do the general public a disservice, because we all depend on schools turning out reasonably educated individuals for our replublic to work well.

In College, you have a choice in even attending a particular college. Once there, you will absolutely meet with idiotic professors. BUT, the truth is that schools keep these folks for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes they even keep controversial teachers specifically because they push students on to verify things, to question things more, etc. i.e. it is not necessarily all about the information, but the process of thinking and knowing when to just reiterate what a teacher (or boss) says. Also a teacher may have a couple of quirks about a few things, but be brilliant in other issues. In College, you are supposed to be thinking like a full adult, including dealing with .. well intelligent idiots. I am not saying it is the best thing to do, but it is a tactic. (academic freedom, is one way of seeing it) Sometimes, they are stuck with a teacher simply because they don't have anyone else to fill a position or they did not reaslize who they were getting and have to let a contract end... etc.

[MeDeFe]

*empirical

thank you. Yes I'm in my grammar nazi mood.

[CrazyAnglican]

Here it is.

Yeah I can commiserate there. It's pretty enraging to spend the time preparing a rational defense of the early Christian Church (for your professor who thinks that the fall of the Roman Empire can be summed up in one word "Christians") only to receive "Nice try - F" and this person was pulling down a government paycheck as well. There are jerks on both sides, sorry about your teacher.

I think you're spot on with your assessment in a lot of ways Player, but I think it also misses the point that there are power abusing jerks everywhere. It's just better to think of them as power abusing jerks and not overgeneralize.

Since Bush's "no child left behind" science education and creative thinking of any kind are being quickly eradicated.

Not in my class Heck we even did science research papers where our science teacher (She is awesome) handled all the scientific method and theory, and I spent weeks with them making their expository reports to tell their findings. It was great to watch them go from "My mineral is......" to "Many colorful stones lined up on a jewelry store counter could all be examples of the same mineral......", and many times I've heard the lament "Why are we bringing our social studies books to language arts class again".

That is where my hate for this man comes from. Not from his being Christian. Most Americans are Christian, and you don't see me saying anything hateful about them. It was all that...
He nearly flunked me out of school because I refused to convert.
And because I felt anxious and trapped, when I could get no one to stand up with me. He may have broke the others, but he never broke me.

Right and that was where I was going. He's a jerk that should be censured or fired. He's pushing an agenda and using his position to further it. I had one teacher who went off about evolution vs. creationism as well one day, but she was a social studies teacher and we all kind of checked out until she got over it. What you dealt with was someone who didn't mind hurting your future to coerce you into his way of thinking, which is wrong anyway you cut it.

Unfortunately, it's a lot like the business world they promote them so they can do less damage.

..........

Sorry it was just a joke, I've never worked for a bad administrator. Those are some dedicated folks with a really tough job.

[Juan_Bottom]

Sorry it was just a joke, I've never worked for a bad administrator. Those are some dedicated folks with a really tough job.

Haha! You've never met "Thilldo" aka "THitler" before.

Appearantly, my school really sucked.

*empirical

thank you. Yes I'm in my grammar nazi mood.

You shore do love you're grammer.

Anyway, the differance between science and history is that history is, largely opinion.

I read this and got mad. "Hitler was an alien..." but then I continued on and it was pleasent.

[jonesthecurl]

"History bears the same relationship to truth that Theology does to religion. That is, none to speak of."

Same man who said what's in my sig.

[MeDeFe]

*empirical

thank you. Yes I'm in my grammar nazi mood.

You shore do love you're grammer.

Yes, I sure do love grammar. Now prepare to be annihilated when you're least expecting it.

[Juan_Bottom]

"History bears the same relationship to truth that Theology does to religion. That is, none to speak of."

Same man who said what's in my sig.

Seriously, it's great to have you back.

*empirical

thank you. Yes I'm in my grammar nazi mood.

You shore do love you're grammer.

Yes, I sure do love grammar. Now prepare to be annihilated when you're least expecting it.

I can't tell for certain. You caught the you're part also? I need to get batter at this...
Annihilated??? You're after my job aren't you?

[MeDeFe]

Do not question my linguistic competence, mangler of sentences.

[InkL0sed]

Word.

[PLAYER57832]

Do not question my linguistic competence, mangler of sentences.

Sounds like a challenge! (though I decline ... my grammar needs a bit of improvement. Vocabulary, though .... )

[PLAYER57832]

Here it is.

Yeah I can commiserate there. It's pretty enraging to spend the time preparing a rational defense of the early Christian Church (for your professor who thinks that the fall of the Roman Empire can be summed up in one word "Christians") only to receive "Nice try - F" and this person was pulling down a government paycheck as well. There are jerks on both sides, sorry about your teacher.

I think you're spot on with your assessment in a lot of ways Player, but I think it also misses the point that there are power abusing jerks everywhere. It's just better to think of them as power abusing jerks and not overgeneralize.

You might reread that last sentance ...
But, absolutely are jerks everywhere. I had more than my share, though most actually taught information, they were jerks in other ways. One exception was a teacher who started our math class on the first day with a story of how he hated those kids who could sail through class without doing as much work as he did and how he was going to make sure everyone worked in his class. His explanations were terrible. A group of us basically ended teaching each other and most of the rest of the class, so we got through.

Since Bush's "no child left behind" science education and creative thinking of any kind are being quickly eradicated.

Not in my class Heck we even did science research papers where our science teacher (She is awesome) handled all the scientific method and theory, and I spent weeks with them making their expository reports to tell their findings. It was great to watch them go from "My mineral is......" to "Many colorful stones lined up on a jewelry store counter could all be examples of the same mineral......", and many times I've heard the lament "Why are we bringing our social studies books to language arts class again".

You are lucky ... or (and I really hate to say this), your standards might not be as high as mine. We began doing science research papers in middle school. (a public school) Your description was brief. Also, even when physics and such are taught, natural sciences are often left out or barely covered.

That is where my hate for this man comes from.

Except, here you are bothered by that hatred and where is he? Oblivious. The best revenge is to live well and be happy. And, if you have not gone to College, you should .. absolutely! Some options may have been cut out, but not all .. by a long shot!

[Juan_Bottom]

Except, here you are bothered by that hatred and where is he? Oblivious. The best revenge is to live well and be happy. And, if you have not gone to College, you should .. absolutely! Some options may have been cut out, but not all .. by a long shot!

I HAVE BEEN TRYING!!! But the State's Attorney gave me an OPEN FELONY.... and then drug my trial out for three years. He did this to keep me from going to college, or getting a job(his words). An OPEN FELONY means that you have no convictions, but that you could be arrested on a felony at any time. It's a way around the whole "innocent until proven guilty." Anyway, you can't get any finacial aid if you have an OPEN FELONY.... and now I'll have to wait a year while I pay off my debts. But I am going.

[CrazyAnglican]

You might reread that last sentance ...

My last sentence? I did but can't find the mistake. What did you find? Oh wait did you mean the comma splice in the first post? Got it thanks. I'm sure much to the Spelling and Grammar Nazis' chagrin, I don't consider this formal writing, so I tend to be a little lax with regard to mechanics.

But, absolutely are jerks everywhere. I had more than my share, though most actually taught information, they were jerks in other ways. One exception was a teacher who started our math class on the first day with a story of how he hated those kids who could sail through class without doing as much work as he did and how he was going to make sure everyone worked in his class. His explanations were terrible. A group of us basically ended teaching each other and most of the rest of the class, so we got through.

That's my point exactly. It seems that in your mind that teacher is a jerk and a bad teacher. Whether he's Black, White, Jewish, Catholic, or Atheist makes little difference, and as such you didn't mention it. His reasons or rationale for being a bad teacher are of little importance because it just ends up being his excuse. He begins with an overreaching goal, in this case "Make the smart kids sweat", and ends up anlienating his class, and not teaching them well. The agenda became more important than the process of educating the kids. Sadly, he probably thought he was doing a great job (having high standards and all that).

Since Bush's "no child left behind" science education and creative thinking of any kind are being quickly eradicated.

Not in my class Heck we even did science research papers where our science teacher (She is awesome) handled all the scientific method and theory, and I spent weeks with them making their expository reports to tell their findings. It was great to watch them go from "My mineral is......" to "Many colorful stones lined up on a jewelry store counter could all be examples of the same mineral......", and many times I've heard the lament "Why are we bringing our social studies books to language arts class again".

You are lucky ... or (and I really hate to say this), your standards might not be as high as mine. We began doing science research papers in middle school. (a public school) Your description was brief. Also, even when physics and such are taught, natural sciences are often left out or barely covered.

I'm a sixth grade language arts teacher, so yeah I'm introducing science research papers in the first year of middle school. Georgia has really come a long way in standards over the last six years. We entirely revamped our curriculum, and it seems to be a good thing.

That is where my hate for this man comes from.

Except, here you are bothered by that hatred and where is he? Oblivious. The best revenge is to live well and be happy. And, if you have not gone to College, you should .. absolutely! Some options may have been cut out, but not all .. by a long shot!

I HAVE BEEN TRYING!!! But the State's Attorney gave me an OPEN FELONY.... and then drug my trial out for three years. He did this to keep me from going to college, or getting a job(his words). An OPEN FELONY means that you have no convictions, but that you could be arrested on a felony at any time. It's a way around the whole "innocent until proven guilty." Anyway, you can't get any finacial aid if you have an OPEN FELONY.... and now I'll have to wait a year while I pay off my debts. But I am going.

Yep, go for it dude, and pay off that debt too. You're on the right track.

[MeDeFe]

You might reread that last sentance ...

My last sentence? I did but can't find the mistake. What did you find? Oh wait did you mean the comma splice in the first post? Got it thanks. I'm sure much to the Spelling and Grammar Nazis' chagrin, I don't consider this formal writing, so I tend to be a little lax with regard to mechanics.

Player's last sentence.
I think the one where she said that there are jerks on both sides, and you replied to it and said exactly the same as if you were debating against her.

[CrazyAnglican]

I think I'm missing something here MeDeFe. There are jerks on both sides was my statement and I reiterated it with it's better just to think of them as jerks. I think Player agreed with me after saying to check my last sentence. So I assumed that there was a mechanics issue with it but have no earthly idea what was wrong, aside from it being part of my own inane ramblings and therefore suspect to begin with.

[MeDeFe]

I think she meant that you should check her last sentence in what you quoted.