Forced to be Christian

[Napoleon Ier]

google it, but next time do the research before making the post.

Right. That passage is pure opinion that has 0 references to support it and is taken from a "Jewish Historical Sourcebook", which sounds to me like a bunch of whiny Zionists with a persecution complex making outrageous claims for the sake of it.

I have researched and studied in albeit moderate depth this particular period of history, I'd rather advise you to research this and basic theology, so we can get a response going in the other thread, something I'm getting rather impatient for... I'd also caution you not to mix up CE and BCE. 1492 CE comes before 1609... you're thinking of BC for the reverse to be true.

[mpjh]

You can yak, you can obfuscate, you can blame others all you want. Fact is that I have a source from researchers that supports my claim. You have zip -- nada, ziltch, bubkus -- because your post was simply WRONG.

[Napoleon Ier]

Look, you're trolling again, and we all know it. You posted an unreferenced, unprofessional piece of conjectural opinion from a clearly biased source, I posted credible history you can look up in Henry Kamen, Garcia and on wikipedia.

You then wrote a post which confused AD/CE and BC/BCE, or at any rate whether 1492 AD or 1609 AD comes first.

Now, you're going to obfuscate (nice try at a preemptory comment so I couldn't accuse you of doing what you yourself know you're doing), deny all this, and squirm and start saying all you're talking about are genetic markers, but I won't get drawn in, we've been down that road with you before, and it was just embarrassing for you, and a waste of time for me. Maybe you like wasting my time. Today, you're not getting the satisfaction.

When you post something serious which isn't a response to a straw man, maybe I'll come back and we can debate properly. Then again, I suppose you get that comment a lot, so I deem it'll be unlikely.

[mpjh]

Sorry nappy, you have no way out of this, your post was wrong. If you don't like my source, use another that says something different. Mine was clear and concise. All you have done is dance around the fact that your facts made no sense. Deal with that or it will be clear that you are the troll.

[OnlyAmbrose]

mpjh, would it kill you to post a link once? I mean, it's great that you're posting sources now, but if you don't post what your source IS we don't have a clue where it's coming from. That this can be used to mislead a reader goes without saying.

[Napoleon Ier]

mpjh, would it kill you to post a link once? I mean, it's great that you're posting sources now, but if you don't post what your source IS we don't have a clue where it's coming from. That this can be used to mislead a reader goes without saying.

If he did that, people would be able to cotton onto their lack of credibility too quickly.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1492-jews-spain1.html

Essentially, that opinionated first segment that contains no references within it is all he cited.

[mpjh]

Nappy, you are having a real hard time coming to terms with the fact that your post about the Morisco rebels was just factually wrong. You need to work on a little humility.

[PLAYER57832]

The problem with the second part is that "the state" is made up of individuals who frequently are religious. The imposing happens on a state-level, so the "tug-of-war" happens within the state and is therefore rarely resolved. How many senators and congressmen have voted against gay-marriage out of non-religious grounds? Aren't they limiting rights? Religion is still controlling laws, even to this day.

I am waiting for the first presidential election where the issue of the candidates religion doesn't matter.

This is why it MUST be a FEDERAL RIGHT, based in the most fundamental law of the land .. i. e. the constitution. However a lot of people mistake this for "removal of religion from federal law".. which is absolutely not the same. The right is for everyone to practice their religion .. not to have complete freedom from religion.

A persons basic religious rights trump everything except the most basic physical human rights ...and at times, not even that.

I am not suggesting our country is perfect by a long stretch, but we have done pretty well regarding religion, up until the Republicans decided to use conservative religion as their basis platform beginning in the 1980's. Up until then, we were moving toward progressively more and more freedom on all levels. Now we have taken a few steps backward.

But... yes, if you want to talk about this further, maybe it should be in another thread. This is only tangentially related to the expulsion of Jews from Spain.

I would say that if you compare the way people try to justify all these acts ... be it Spain, Germany or any of the others mentioned, you will see some commonalities ...and worse, there are some commonalities with today in the US (regarding Muslims). We are still a long ways off (thankfully), but ... how far? We have to be sure we truly are differant.

We need to remember that the true test of justice and freedom are not when things are peaceful and when everything is going well ... it is precisely in the times of trouble that the foundation of an independent law becomes critical.

[mpjh]

Thoughtful post.

I do see a tie in between the Jewish experience and what is happening today. You will notice that some trying to justify the Jewish forced conversions and expulsions use "national security" and "cultural cleansing" as a justification. We are confronted with much the same justification today for racial profiling (treating someone as a criminal based on their race), suspension of Heabeus Corpus, and even deportation of people who have worked in this country for years at the invitation of the corporation for which they work. I think is it clearer than ever that when we deny the 'inalienable rights" of the constitution to anyone, we deny them to ourselves and eventually will destroy our freedom.

[Aradhus]

I know this isn't the topic, but I was forced to be a christian. As a child I believed it too, until around about 8 when I started really questioning things. The more I read, and researched the more I began to understand what religion was, how it came into existence, and to a certain extent, why today, so many people still believe.

An let me tell you, I'm the most open minded guy there is, I have doubts, sometimes. I'll get out a religious text read though it for a while, but at the end of the day I know, it is hope that leads me to search for the truth amongst religion, its not there. I'm not saying there is no god, maybe there is some high power, but from the years of reading and understanding, if such an entity exists, I know it is not the force created by primitive human beings. Understanding is all.

Ok, I'll let you get back to the discussion at hand.

[mpjh]

No, no, good point. I often look at my childhood as a period of forced religiosity. It was an intricate system of punishment and reward from a very early age, enforced by the loving hand of my mom, until, well, I will tell you a story, one day I was standing quietly in the hall inline with other students getting ready to go onstage as the choir for the xmas play. I was daydreaming as usual. My mom was sitting in the audience, but could see down the hall and was watching me standing in line. Suddenly Sister Tarsisus ran down the hall and knocked me on my ass with a slap to the face. This had happened before, but I could get no adult to deal with it. My mom, however, saw it this time. I was removed from the catholic school, and for the first time allowed to challenge the church authority and win. That allowed me to explore other possible ways to life.

[Napoleon Ier]

Well, they knew plenty would stay. If he motivation was economic, I reckon they'd have banned them all.

Perhaps, but if they knew plenty would stay all other reasons would have been just as stupid.

Cultural hygiene? Making sure fanatics and radicals leave?

Cultural hygiene just sounds like a term to cover up racism.

I mean, I don't disagree that "cultural hygiene" isn't a valid reason for throwing out Jews. I just can see why Spain would want a blank slate to start re-populating newly conquered areas. It's my opinion that Jews in Europe were broadly a historic positive, but there's always a real danger of Zionism to consider, and whilst Spain was certainly far too zealous in their repression of Judaism, I can see their reasons.

The real historical beef people should have with Spain is clearly the Inquisition which by definition, did not repress Judaism.

[mpjh]

I see you are back, nappy. do you have a correction to make to you post yet, or are you hoping we will ignore the incorrect information you posted?

[Napoleon Ier]

I'm having a discussion with snorri, who, however naive he may be, has at least the virtues of conviction and intellectual honesty.

If you post relevant material that contradicts specific quotes I've made, I'll respond. Until then, I'm not sinking into the flame/troll gutter with you.

[mpjh]

Sorry nappy, you were attacking my information about the forced conversion of Jews and made a claim during that discussion about why the Spanish Crown expelled the Jews. I proved a concise quotation from research directly showing that your information was wrong. You have tried to ignore that ever since. You pose as such an intellectual, even posting the grades in your course in threads here. So, when you are shown to be factually wrong, you punt. Typical.

[snufkin]

It was a political thing disguised as religion.. also known as catholicism
very beatiful and decieving and extremely far from Jesus message of love and tolerance.

Yes, some of your ancestors probably had to at least pretend that they were catholics..but it was as much about politics and economy as it was about actual faith from those "forcing" the conversion
They did it so that they could confiscate everything the same way the nazis did.
..and then later the spanish inquisition was of course a strong inspiration for nazis and fascists - the exact opposite of what a christian should be.

[Backglass]

Sorry nappy, you were attacking my information about the forced conversion of Jews and made a claim during that discussion about why the Spanish Crown expelled the Jews. I proved a concise quotation from research directly showing that your information was wrong. You have tried to ignore that ever since. You pose as such an intellectual, even posting the grades in your course in threads here. So, when you are shown to be factually wrong, you punt. Typical.

Did you really expect anything else? Personally I am disappointed. I was looking forward to another drunken stream of quaint 19th century insults from our favorite sheep herder.

[Zeppflyer]

It was a political thing disguised as religion.. also known as catholicism
very beatiful and decieving and extremely far from Jesus message of love and tolerance.

D'you mean Catholicism of the time or today? Theologically, Catholicism is one of the more tolerant religions on the planet, at least in its very broad answer to "Who can be saved?". Unlike most religions, it does not teach that one must be a strict adherent to its tenets, especially if one has never had the chance to be instructed in them.

[joecoolfrog]

If anybody wants to read the historical backgound to the expulsion:

Conversos,Inquisition and the expulsion of the Jews from Spain - Norman Roth
All 492 pages can be read online - just google it

[nmhunate]

Hey now,

All I know is that I am an old Christian.

[mpjh]

If anybody wants to read the historical backgound to the expulsion:

Conversos,Inquisition and the expulsion of the Jews from Spain - Norman Roth
All 492 pages can be read online - just google it

Is it a good read?

[muy_thaiguy]

It was a political thing disguised as religion.. also known as catholicism
very beatiful and decieving and extremely far from Jesus message of love and tolerance.

Yes, some of your ancestors probably had to at least pretend that they were catholics..but it was as much about politics and economy as it was about actual faith from those "forcing" the conversion
They did it so that they could confiscate everything the same way the nazis did.
..and then later the spanish inquisition was of course a strong inspiration for nazis and fascists - the exact opposite of what a christian should be.

Wow. According to this, OnlyAmbrose, Napoleon Ier, and I (to name a few) should be modern day Nazis.

[mpjh]

Is that a confession or a question?

[muy_thaiguy]

Is that a confession or a question?

More of a ignorant statement, which it is.

[mpjh]

Yeah, I'll take that. it is ok. I just an glad we aren't going the "you are a nazi" route; that usually is the end of any discussion.