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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:57 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Also, apparently we're still arguing about whether the current healthcare plan will actually impose a single payor system when I've already explained how it will work (i.e. you have private health insurance, plan goes into effect, your plan is grandfathered in, you lose your job, you're on goverment health insurance).

Wait....I don't understand what you mean here. Are you agreeing that the private insurance will still exist?


Yes, it still exists... until a person loses his or her job. Then that person is required to have government health insurance. So, technically, private health insurance still exists until every person who has private health insurance (1) dies or (2) switches jobs. When that happens, no more private health insurance. How long do you think that will take? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:14 pm

If someone thinks they can say what will happen AFTER it takes effect is just retarded. gov't track record is 100% never what it was meant to be, over costs, over budget. When the gov't runs short on money, they can't just print medicine
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby bedub1 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:20 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Also, apparently we're still arguing about whether the current healthcare plan will actually impose a single payor system when I've already explained how it will work (i.e. you have private health insurance, plan goes into effect, your plan is grandfathered in, you lose your job, you're on goverment health insurance).

Wait....I don't understand what you mean here. Are you agreeing that the private insurance will still exist?


Yes, it still exists... until a person loses his or her job. Then that person is required to have government health insurance. So, technically, private health insurance still exists until every person who has private health insurance (1) dies or (2) switches jobs. When that happens, no more private health insurance. How long do you think that will take? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?

They don't want a single payer system YET...they want one once everybody has either died or switched jobs. Obama is a lying sack of shit...."I don't want a single player system" he says over and over...so you go review his past statements...and he does want one. And he actually talked about how the objective is to slowly take over medicine and trick everybody into the government system...and then "poof" they have a single payer system.

The PROBLEM is the GOVERNMENT. Government is NOT the solution.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Also, apparently we're still arguing about whether the current healthcare plan will actually impose a single payor system when I've already explained how it will work (i.e. you have private health insurance, plan goes into effect, your plan is grandfathered in, you lose your job, you're on goverment health insurance).

Wait....I don't understand what you mean here. Are you agreeing that the private insurance will still exist?


Yes, it still exists... until a person loses his or her job. Then that person is required to have government health insurance. So, technically, private health insurance still exists until every person who has private health insurance (1) dies or (2) switches jobs. When that happens, no more private health insurance. How long do you think that will take? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?


Far longer.

Anyway, you could make private insurance more attractive for the richer people. I don't know whether the current bill proposed would give that option like it should, but I'm sure that private insurance won't get blown completely out of the picture. I'm thinking that even with the care provided by the government the people who can afford it will get the more expensive but better care, I know that is the case here where small private practices exist. Sure, they're not big hospitals but they do offer more personal and more laidback care than the hospitals.


While the entire system would change, the current bill still allows for the private insurers to grab something. I think that's what really makes for the best solution: You got the biggest part of the populace on government care and the private sector works so that the public sector keeps improving itself to not lose customers. They work in a sort of tandem where the ones left by either sector get picked up by the other.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:16 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Problem - Poor people don't have insurance.
Solution - Government provides health insurance (including preventative care) for poor people

Sounds perfectly reasonable. Make them still pay a small part to cover costs but keep it affordable.

The most important thing though is ensuring that none of them will try to deny paying. This can either be done by putting on a tax or putting on a fine when they don't buy insurance. They both work with a near 100% guarantee.
Problem - Lower middle class, middle class get screwed when they have accidents/illnesses because insurance won't pay.
Solution - Government regulates when insurance companies have to pay.

Again, very reasonable. It's basically sounding exactly like the way my country handles it. Insurers must pay for stuff and must insure everyone no matter the illness or condition. A free market can work but only if companies are regulated to not do certain things. In general this is about monopolies, but in this specific case it's about giving everyone insurance and not being able to deny it when costs are brought up.
Problem - Rising healthcare costs because of litigation.
Solution - Cap damages for medical malpractice law suits and/or impose stiff penalties on attorneys/plaintiffs bring frivolous suits.


Definetly a case of "and". The biggest problem facing the USA in it's implementation of an Universal Health Care system is the ridiculous prices for malpractice insurance and the high wages for those doctors. That's the thing on which the costs are really determined. If that is not handled I doubt the costs are really lowered by a large amount, but if they are I think the costs of health care for the US will be lowered nearly in half.


I seriously think you (or anyone you think can do it to) should campaign for a system like that of The Netherlands or Germany. Over here the government doesn't insure anyone, all it really does is cover the costs for the companies which have bad luck.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:44 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Also, apparently we're still arguing about whether the current healthcare plan will actually impose a single payor system when I've already explained how it will work (i.e. you have private health insurance, plan goes into effect, your plan is grandfathered in, you lose your job, you're on goverment health insurance).


Right now, you lose your job, you either get NO insurance or you go on Medicaid, wich is extremely socialized and quite complete coverage. (not to be confused with Medicare, which actually works, to a point).

Under this plan, the burden will shift from employers to individuals... which, I believe in other conversations, was what you wanted. Now, if the private health insurance cannot provide better coverage for a cheaper price, then yes, the government plan will be selected. IF that happens, there is some argument for it being "socialism". However, the key point is that it is up to individuals to choose and up to the insurance industry to provide what people want. That is the free market.

I realize you argued that insurance companies cannot compete with the government. Except, you cannot argue that and then at the same time claim that socialism is this terrible thing. If the government offers better coverage for cheaper, then we win. Isn't that what we should all want? Better overall coverage for cheaper?

Furthermore, while I do agree that the government will take over the bottom tier of insurance, will offer a "floor" below which people cannot fall that is much wider and offers much better coverage to everyone than either Medicaid OR Insurance companies offer now, I do not agree that it will oust insurance companies completely. Those who want fancier coverage, for say, anything from plastic surgery to overseas treatments, experimental treatments, etc., will still take private policies. Its just that most of us won't have to worry about losing our house because our kid came down with appendicitis or got some teeth knocked out.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby luns101 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Problem - Rising healthcare costs because of litigation.
Solution - Cap damages for medical malpractice law suits and/or impose stiff penalties on attorneys/plaintiffs bring frivolous suits.

This is "my" plan.


I agree with you on this part. So many unecessary tests are conducted by doctors to shield themselves from malpractice lawsuits. IMO, put a cap on the amount that can be awarded to individuals and make the adjudicators doctors...not lawyers (I know, wishful thinking but that's who I would want deciding malpractice cases...no offense)

I would also propose allowing private insurance providers the ability to sell their policies across state lines. This would at least bring some more competition into the health care insurance market.

Not a total solution obviously, but it's something that could be done right now in order to get a hold on costs.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Night Strike on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:10 pm

I heard this predicament today: Why, in the same paragraph/speech, is the president saying that you will get to keep your insurance if at the same time he's saying the system is broken/horrible due to the greedy insurance companies? That seems to be contradictory, so which one is what the president really supports?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:13 pm

Night Strike wrote:I heard this predicament today: Why, in the same paragraph/speech, is the president saying that you will get to keep your insurance if at the same time he's saying the system is broken/horrible due to the greedy insurance companies? That seems to be contradictory, so which one is what the president really supports?

Just because he says you get to keep your wrong shit doesn't mean he supports it.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:15 pm

Good job greek, you are at least thinking about the issue seriously. Still , I see quite a few problems:

thegreekdog wrote:Problem - Poor people don't have insurance.
Solution - Government provides health insurance (including preventative care) for poor people


Poor people are not the problem, at all. In fact, poor people get Medicaid, particularly kids. In PA that means anyone making less than about $39,000 for a family of 4, in PA -- not all that poor by my book, even! AND anyone who's employer does not offer insurance (you don't qualify for adults if your employer offers insurance of any kind, no matter your income, but kids will be covered if you make less than $39,000).

The problem is that insurance companies plain won't insure people after they get really sick, unless they have already pre-paid a pretty nice policy. (and, I know you said your wife is sick, but is still getting covered -- I also know that the $5 co-pay policies are the top tier, not anything like what most people have AND I know that even your policy has a lifetime limit that will likely be exceeded -- including a lifetime family maximum).

The other problem is that insurance companies negotiate somewhat reasonable rates with very large companies, getting back profits in sheer volume. However, small business owners and other individuals who don't get employer-provided insurance get charged through the teeth. Ten years ago, some friends of mine in MISSISSIPPI (hardly the high income capitol of the world!) would have had to pay $600 a month for their family of 4. That was not for a fancy policy, it was just basic hospitilization, etc.

In short, insurance companies get to pick and choose who they cover. So, of course, they choose to cover mostly healthy people.

Ironically, PA right now does offer CHIP to anyone who is without insurance at a half-way reasonable rate. However, again, anyone with even the poorest policy in the world does not qualify. This means that MY taxes support the insurance policy of people who make $100,000 and more a year, but folks at my husband's old plant, who make far less than the $39,000 WIC and reduced lunch limit, get zip. THEY get to pay $25 for every visit to the doctor, plus a $500 minimum deductible and then 80% after that until they reach $4000 in one year. (unless they have a disabled kid.... then, again, they get covered :? )

Real solution: Require insurance companies to cover everyone, without regard to pre-existing conditions. Further, set a minimum standard for coverage. (Require them to offer a minimum of services.) They may offer more at a higher price, but the legislator sets out the minimums. Some insurers will balk, will get out of the business. However, that's life.

thegreekdog wrote:Problem - Lower middle class, middle class get screwed when they have accidents/illnesses because insurance won't pay.
Solution - Government regulates when insurance companies have to pay.


They sort of do. They have to provide the coverage listed in your policy. However, few people really bother to read those policies until something happens. Also, insurance companies can drop you as soon as you file a claim, paying that claim, but denying any and all future claims.

Again, the problem is not so much getting insurance companies to pay, its getting them to just cover people and keep them covered! The solution is the same as above, require everyone to be covered at a minimum level. If insurance companies won't, then the government can and should step in with broad, basic coverage.


thegreekdog wrote:Problem - Rising healthcare costs because of litigation.
Solution - Cap damages for medical malpractice law suits and/or impose stiff penalties on attorneys/plaintiffs bring frivolous suits.

Ironically, litigation is actually not the biggest factor in healthcare costs, though it is a significant factor. The biggest factor, by far, is beauracracy. When I was young, I can remember going to doctors offices where you had 1 receptionist and 2-3 doctors. Sometimes there was a nurse, but not necessarily. Now, you see 2 doctors and maybe 8 people who do little but paperwork. In a few cases, they are nurses who may do injections, etc. However, the overwhelming amount of everyone's time is in just completing paperwork.

This is one place where a unified paying system would benefit. I do like a single-payee system, but even just standardizing insurance forms, agreeing a little more on what is and is not covered in various circumstances would save everyone both time and money!

thegreekdog wrote:This is "my" plan.


Again, you obviously put some thought into this, but what you speak of is more the perception that has been put forth by various vested interests, rather than the true reality of why healthcare is so expensive and insurance is just not working.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:17 pm

Night Strike wrote:I heard this predicament today: Why, in the same paragraph/speech, is the president saying that you will get to keep your insurance if at the same time he's saying the system is broken/horrible due to the greedy insurance companies? That seems to be contradictory, so which one is what the president really supports?


Because it is broken due to greedy insurance companies, but most people are afraid to even try any other insurance.

So, they will get to keep their insurance, if they want.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:25 pm

bedub1 wrote:They don't want a single payer system YET...they want one once everybody has either died or switched jobs. Obama is a lying sack of shit...."I don't want a single player system" he says over and over...so you go review his past statements...and he does want one. And he actually talked about how the objective is to slowly take over medicine and trick everybody into the government system...and then "poof" they have a single payer system.

The PROBLEM is the GOVERNMENT. Government is NOT the solution.


Actually, he said over and over that he would prefer a single-payor system if he could start from scratch. However, he also said that messing with 6% of the nation's economy right now is not going to work.

And I am not sure where you get this idea that "once everbody has either died or switched jobs" we will have a single payor system. As was explained many times, insurance companies will be free to offer new policies that meet with the new regulations.

Look at any legislation that seriously affects people and you find clauses that say "after x date, no new [whatever], meeting past criteria, may be offered". Sometimes, particularly when product safety is concerned, there is an added "no products may be sold" clause.

In 197? manufacturers were required to make sleepware flame-resistant (in some measure). Stores held massive sales to get rid of the old product before the date. Did they stop selling sleepware? No, but the did stop selling untreated sleepware, for a while. Later the law was changed again to allow snug-fitting sleepware to be sold as long as it has "not flame resistant" warnings on the labels.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PopeBenXVI on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:08 pm

Well, Snorri certainly has diarrhea of the keyboard tonight.

Why can't we just have a simple reform bill? We would not have all these pissed off people if they would take out the completely unnecessary and questionable things. If it's about covering uninsured Americans and lowering costs then focus on that not

Free care for Illegals (for Hispanic votes)
Realtime access to our bank accounts and all financial info. Account transfer access as well.
Rationed care of the elderly
Increasing birth intervals between pregnancies (what the hell is this in there for?)
Taxpayer funded subsidized union retiree plans (for union Votes)
Doctors can be told what to make and where to live in order to practice
Gov will restrict enrollment of special needs people
No choice regarding vaccinations

Just because they call it reform does not mean thats what it is. This is all Bull which is why so many people are showing up to protest. You can say all you want about Socialized medicine working and even if one were to say it does they don't need the other stuff in the Bill to work. It's for votes and control and nothing more. If it's so great why are they exempting themselves from the plan? Obama himself when asked if he would go outside his special Gov plan never answered the question.

You guys can have your Obamacare lovefest if you like it that much but your just not reading everything in the bill or you don't care. Either way you should if you live here. Bush was an idiot but Obama has taken his crown away without breaking a sweat.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:49 pm

PopeBenXVI wrote:Well, Snorri certainly has diarrhea of the keyboard tonight.

Why can't we just have a simple reform bill? We would not have all these pissed off people if they would take out the completely unnecessary and questionable things. If it's about covering uninsured Americans and lowering costs then focus on that not

Free care for Illegals (for Hispanic votes)

Not in this bill.

Health care is already provided to may children of many illegals because they are citizens, even if their parents are not.
Emergency care is mandatory for everyone, regardless of ability to pay or nationality.

PopeBenXVI wrote:Realtime access to our bank accounts and all financial info. Account transfer access as well.

Huh? show where it says this, and the full context.
I suspect this just refers to normal automatic payment provisions.

PopeBenXVI wrote:Rationed care of the elderly
Definitely NOT in there!

PopeBenXVI wrote:Increasing birth intervals between pregnancies (what the hell is this in there for?)
It' s not.

PopeBenXVI wrote:Taxpayer funded subsidized union retiree plans (for union Votes)

again, show us.

PopeBenXVI wrote:Doctors can be told what to make and where to live in order to practice

Again, you will have to explain this better.

However, I will say that insurance companies essentially do this by deciding to only allow payment to certain doctors in certain areas, etc.

PopeBenXVI wrote:Gov will restrict enrollment of special needs people
Where does it say this?

PopeBenXVI wrote:No choice regarding vaccinations[
Already law. Exceptions are supposed to be for narrow religious issues only, but too many people decide to listen to Internet hype (with plenty of help from Google searches that will show you roughly 100 bogus garbage and only 1-2 legitimate researched sites, combined with huge groups of people that have little or no science understanding, or even real critical thinking skills).

PopeBenXVI wrote:Just because they call it reform does not mean thats what it is. This is all Bull which is why so many people are showing up to protest. You can say all you want about Socialized medicine working and even if one were to say it does they don't need the other stuff in the Bill to work. It's for votes and control and nothing more. If it's so great why are they exempting themselves from the plan? Obama himself when asked if he would go outside his special Gov plan never answered the question.


The only legitimate point you bring up is that Congress is apparently exempting itself from the plan. However, since apparently everyone has the option to keep their current insurance, that is not a real difference.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:40 am

http://www.examiner.com/x-7150-Extreme- ... -the-world

Although our health care system is the ranked behind nearly every other industrialized country, the US can proudly boast that we pay more, a LOT more, than anyone else for our care. Not only does the United States spend more than $1 trillion more per year than anyone else on the planet, we also pay more, a lot more, per capita for our health care.

The World Health Organization says, ā€œThe U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance.ā€ This puts to rest the tired notion that the American ā€œfree marketā€ pushes for the most efficient and least expensive system. In fact, we are the least efficient healthcare in the industrialized world.


If you want some facts about the plan, visit:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby heavycola on Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:06 am

This is so depressing - that a minority of screeching, minsinformed retards is being taken at all seriously.
Case in point: On the radio in England this morning was some american woman screaming how she didn't want to live in russia. She was of course talking about obama's proposed healthcare reforms.

It's interesting though. Previously, when these idiotically polarised debates waft over the atlantic - "SOCIALIST!" "NAZI!" etc etc - many of us over here have thought, at some level, well... we might wade into the argument for fun but really it's a different world over there.
Here, however, the bullshit currently being spread about the NHS by the shoutiest retards of all - hannity, beck, limbaugh (hey rush! you could get your oxycontin for free over here!) et al - is so demonstrably false, so full of lies and spin, that we can all now call them out for the shouty retards - playing, ultimately, to the major insurers' tunes - they are.

I hope for the US' sake that sense prevails.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby GabonX on Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:34 am

Out of curiosity, what lies, specifically, are you referring to? I find it difficult to believe that you have had enough exposure to hold an informed opinion regarding the things of which you speak. It is impossible for you to hold a rational opinion on Rush Limbaugh for example, without having ever listened to his show. Sadly, I suspect you form your opinions based on filtered sources, not unlike most people within the United States.

Obviously Universal Health Care would be a great thing, but such a thing can not be achieved without paying a price. Many of us believe that the price being asked (for some it is the money, for others the invasion of privacy, and most importantly to me the infringement on personal liberty) is not worth it. In addition, the idea that it is, or should be the role of government to care for all citizens is contested in and of itself.

I'm curious, what underlying principle causes you to think that this is the case?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:39 am

Snorri1234 wrote:Anyway, you could make private insurance more attractive for the richer people. I don't know whether the current bill proposed would give that option like it should, but I'm sure that private insurance won't get blown completely out of the picture. I'm thinking that even with the care provided by the government the people who can afford it will get the more expensive but better care, I know that is the case here where small private practices exist. Sure, they're not big hospitals but they do offer more personal and more laidback care than the hospitals.


While the entire system would change, the current bill still allows for the private insurers to grab something. I think that's what really makes for the best solution: You got the biggest part of the populace on government care and the private sector works so that the public sector keeps improving itself to not lose customers. They work in a sort of tandem where the ones left by either sector get picked up by the other.


See the bold part, which is my point. While it is true that private health insurance will still exist the moment this plan goes into effect, as soon as someone changes jobs, that person loses the option of private health insurance. It's on page 9 (or thereabouts) in the bill. If anyone (on either side) would bother reading the bill they'd see this. Can they fix it? Sure. And I think that would engender some support from me.

Player, you seem to be commenting on the complexity of the insurance coverage documentation. I would argue that the government health insurance will be either as complicated or more complicated. I would also argue that simplification is a great thing to have in a healthcare bill so you can make that part of "my" plan as well.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby heavycola on Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:14 am

GabonX wrote:Out of curiosity, what lies, specifically, are you referring to? I find it difficult to believe that you have had enough exposure to hold an informed opinion regarding the things of which you speak. It is impossible for you to hold a rational opinion on Rush Limbaugh for example, without having ever listened to his show. Sadly, I suspect you form your opinions based on filtered sources, not unlike most people within the United States.


You find this difficult to believe based on what, exactly? that I am british? I have listened to and watched limbaugh et al plenty of times, principally because received opinions are a waste of everyone's time (except of course those with agendas for these wind-up toys to push).

Lies and misinformation? For starters, Chuck Grassley's nonsense about the over 70s not receiving treatment over here; limabugh's comparison of the HC reform logo and a nazi swastika, not to mention the astroturfers/knuckle-draggers wearing swastikas to public meetings on this issue; 'death panels', just like NICE in the UK etc etc...

It would be laughable if there weren't an estimated 50 million uninsured Americans. According to this story from CBS, medical debt accounts for 60% of bankruptcy filings. The truth is that according to the WHO, the UK ranks 18th in the world in terms of healthcare, while the US is at 37th. Infant mortality - which this study links to the availability of and access to healthcare- in the US is among the highest in developed countries.
Now, whether or not a government should provide nationalised healthcare is another argument. I suspect the US right's attitude towards welfare - it subsidises those too lazy to get of their fat asses and do a day's work, etc - is behind that. Fair enough - that's a political argument, as is the rest of your post. This is what the debate should be about.

Instead any discussion of this issue has, again, been polluted by kneejerk shit-stirrers who bleat about communism and 1984 and the Nazis, who peddle distortion and lies to a polarised public many of whom lap this shite up for breakfast without a second's thought. Received opinions again.
(for the record, I'm no patriot, but I am very glad and lucky to live in a country where nationalised healthcare is available to all and where I can still choose to go private. I hope that you in the US can progress enough to one day provide the same for your citizens.)
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:49 am

To heavycola (and others):

While it is certainly justifiable in many ways to point to the outrageous ways in which certain people decide to attack the currently proposed United States healthcare plan, it is political expedience which drives the criticisms of those people. In other words, why would President Obama or Speaker Pelosi or anyone else for that matter, try to debate the merits of the bill when he or she can point to, among other things, the idiocy of certain "whacko right wingers" who want to "deny you your right to healthcare." We can see this phenomenon occuring amongs the members of our US government (many of whom have not, and refuse to, actually read the bill), our media members, and even in this very forum. While some conservatives are certainly "whacko" in their criticisms, some liberals refuse to look at the bill or discuss it rationally, much less make concessions or useful changes.

In sum, instead of any relevant discussion of these issues, opponents to the healthcare bill are likened to crazy people, hatemongers, fearmongers, or idiots. While this is politically expedient, it doesn't bode well for your seemingly holier-than-though response to Gabon, which can be seen as rather hypocritical.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Titanic on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:04 am

thegreekdog wrote:To heavycola (and others):

While it is certainly justifiable in many ways to point to the outrageous ways in which certain people decide to attack the currently proposed United States healthcare plan, it is political expedience which drives the criticisms of those people. In other words, why would President Obama or Speaker Pelosi or anyone else for that matter, try to debate the merits of the bill when he or she can point to, among other things, the idiocy of certain "whacko right wingers" who want to "deny you your right to healthcare." We can see this phenomenon occuring amongs the members of our US government (many of whom have not, and refuse to, actually read the bill), our media members, and even in this very forum. While some conservatives are certainly "whacko" in their criticisms, some liberals refuse to look at the bill or discuss it rationally, much less make concessions or useful changes.

In sum, instead of any relevant discussion of these issues, opponents to the healthcare bill are likened to crazy people, hatemongers, fearmongers, or idiots. While this is politically expedient, it doesn't bode well for your seemingly holier-than-though response to Gabon, which can be seen as rather hypocritical.


Totally agree with you. Arguaments these days seem to be based on sound bites, verbal rhetoric, and demeaning the opposition rather then the logical and political merits.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:28 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:Anyway, you could make private insurance more attractive for the richer people. I don't know whether the current bill proposed would give that option like it should, but I'm sure that private insurance won't get blown completely out of the picture. I'm thinking that even with the care provided by the government the people who can afford it will get the more expensive but better care, I know that is the case here where small private practices exist. Sure, they're not big hospitals but they do offer more personal and more laidback care than the hospitals.


While the entire system would change, the current bill still allows for the private insurers to grab something. I think that's what really makes for the best solution: You got the biggest part of the populace on government care and the private sector works so that the public sector keeps improving itself to not lose customers. They work in a sort of tandem where the ones left by either sector get picked up by the other.


See the bold part, which is my point. While it is true that private health insurance will still exist the moment this plan goes into effect, as soon as someone changes jobs, that person loses the option of private health insurance. It's on page 9 (or thereabouts) in the bill. If anyone (on either side) would bother reading the bill they'd see this. Can they fix it? Sure. And I think that would engender some support from me.


I know you can read through legalize, given your job. Can you quote this? (and the surrounding information). This just does not agree with what I have read or heard.

thegreekdog wrote:Player, you seem to be commenting on the complexity of the insurance coverage documentation. I would argue that the government health insurance will be either as complicated or more complicated. I would also argue that simplification is a great thing to have in a healthcare bill so you can make that part of "my" plan as well.

The complexity of the documentation is a big part (my source is MarketPlace discussion -- they have, by-the-way been doing an analysis of the bill from an economic standpoint). The issue is not so much that any one is more complicated than the other, it is that right now most doctor's offices have to deal with roughly 40 different plans and complete inconsistancy even within the same (supposed) plan under the same insurance company.

Health care is one of those things where most people don't really want or need true freedom of choice. We all want to get well. We pretty much have to rely upon our doctors to tell us what is and is not the best way to do that, even in the internet age. If anything, being able to Google ten thousand symptoms makes doctor's work much more difficult. It does not provide better care except in those rare cases where someone truly has an unusual illness.

What we really want is GOOD care, available to everyone. And most of us accept that "good" does not mean that all of us will have instant access to the top doctor or the top hospital in the country. The truth is that very few of us have that access now, for all sorts of reasons. In the case of the very top doctors, payment is often not even the real roadblock, its just pure access. There are only so many people anyone can see, so many people who can travel to see that one person, etc. Short of being the millionaire who will donate a new research wing to get his kid seen (and sometimes not even then), most of us have to "wait in line" or for the "luck of the draw" (being in the right place at the right time, etc.)

What most of us need is not these fantastic advances in medical care that produce miracles. I don't want to get into the medical ethics debate here, but at some point we have to ask whether it really is worth spending $5,000,000 to save one person when literally millions are suffering, not living whole lives or dying because they lack basic care. I would far, far rather I and other voters, reasoned ethicists, economists, etc all sit down and weigh out these issues rather than leave it at the hands of company executives who, no matter what, have a legal obligation to make money for their stockholders as best they can, NOT to provide the best care they can for the most people.

It is no cooincidence that Viagra, etc. have come and quickly flooded the market, while many truly life-saving drugs wait in "limbo". Viagra makes money. Curing an obscure disease doesn't.

In the current system, insurers and health care suppliers have almost no incentive to pursue those remote issues. Sure Johnson and Johnson (one company I respect fully) will step forward when they hear of some kids who need something they produce, but processed in a more sterile manner than is usual, etc. However, there are 1000's of other kids who's parent don't have the ability to fight or the knowledge to do it. Look, really look at where the true innovations have come in medical care recently and you will not find it in the private sector.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Neoteny on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:32 am

Heavycola!
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:22 am

Here's a link to the bill - http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

The relevant language is under Section 102 (I highlighted the language I thought was particularly relevant), which states:

"(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined - Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of esablishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term "grandfathered health insurance coverage" means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

(1) Limitation of New Enrollment -
(A) In General - Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1"

There's some other stuff under limitation of new enrollment, but I think it's pretty clear that if you lose your Y1 private health insurance coverage post-Y1 you can't enroll in a new private health insurance plan. Perhaps I'm missing something?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare

Postby Nobunaga on Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:35 am

thegreekdog wrote:Here's a link to the bill - http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

The relevant language is under Section 102 (I highlighted the language I thought was particularly relevant), which states:

"(a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined - Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of esablishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term "grandfathered health insurance coverage" means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

(1) Limitation of New Enrollment -
(A) In General - Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1"

There's some other stuff under limitation of new enrollment, but I think it's pretty clear that if you lose your Y1 private health insurance coverage post-Y1 you can't enroll in a new private health insurance plan. Perhaps I'm missing something?


... I've been waiting on a response for this here for days. ... nothing but crickets.

...
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