Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[jonesthecurl]

I'm not.



Yabadabadoo

neither am i!

Yabadabadoo

I know, I know. But it gave me the opportunity to contrast"alleluia" with a more secular expression of joy.

[Sargent Taylor]

Coffeecream:
4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

Okay. First of all every human being has sinned. This means that we have all done things that are "bad" (Bad is anything that is disobedient to Christ. Christ [God] has a lot of laws just like parents do when you are growing up). Now that means that we are all on our way to Hell and there is no way to stop from going to Hell. So now you say, "Well you say you are going to Heaven". So there is a problem. (And by the way, the reason we are going to Hell is because God is perfect and just, therefore He cannot let sin go with out punishment.) Well now we are in big trouble, God won't let us in Heaven and we can't get there. This is the best part of all. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son the whosoever believes in Him will not perish [be sent to Hell] but has everlasting life [will live for ever with Jesus]." So God loved us and didn't want anyone to go to Hell so He gave HIMSELF to die for us. God to our sins and put the on Jesus [God's son part]. Or in other words He put responsibility for what we did on Jesus and Jesus took it and pay the price of death. Thus someone who lived and awful life can ask God for forgiveness of his sins and go to Heaven. But someone who lives "the absolute best life" is still disobeying God one way or another because everyone sins. And if that person refuses to ask God to forgive them for the wrong they have done they go to Hell. But you say "God isn't loving" because "He sends" people to Hell. But Jesus died for us. That is as loving as you can get. And the people who go to Hell reject God. So God isn't rejecting them and sending them to Hell, they are rejecting God and choosing to go to Hell.

[jonesthecurl]

Here's a question which split the early church: what is the modern answer?

Did Jesus always exist from the first moment of creation (and just got the job of being our scapegoat), or was he created specifically to go to Hell on our behalf?

If you aren't, and have never been a Christian yourself, this may sound like an esoteric question, but (and remember, the guy asking the question is not currently a Christian but used to be) it is a very important question to ALL Christians, especially if you find the official position of your own church questionable.

It is important, it seemed to me when I was a deep-thinking Christian, because it addresses the question of the fallibility or infallibility of God. If he intended all along to have Jesus die for your sins and mine, then this means he knew he'd created creatures who were unable to avoid sinning (or created the serpent who was capable of the original corruption which led to the Original Sin). In which case, my question was, how could he be so cruel as to make it impossible for all the generations before Jesus to go to the Heaven which he'd created for impossibly good people);

Or did he not know that he's set impossible standards, and created (sorry, begot) Jesus as a scapegoat to correct his own mistake, which makes him less cruel but fallible.

I have been known to mildy mock Christian beliefs in various posts - but this is a question which perplexed me when I was a Christian myslef, and which has caused rifts in Christianity (including executing those who come to a different conclusion as heretics) - so I am not trolling by asking this: merely curious as to where Christian CC posters stand.

[Sargent Taylor]

CoffeeCream has, since the beginning of this thread several months back, become Christian

Ambrose, when I looked at some of the things on the first pages and saw how openly Coffeecream responded, I silently prayed he would understand and believe. I have never had a prayed answered so fast before. I read the above quoted and felt so happy. Good job to you and the others that helped. *Cha-ching! One more crown for you!* (God bless you)

[CoffeeCream]

CoffeeCream has, since the beginning of this thread several months back, become Christian

Ambrose, when I looked at some of the things on the first pages and saw how openly Coffeecream responded, I silently prayed he would understand and believe. I have never had a prayed answered so fast before. I read the above quoted and felt so happy. Good job to you and the others that helped. *Cha-ching! One more crown for you!* (God bless you)

Yes, I made the decision to submit my life to Jesus Christ some time ago. Thanks for your prayers. It's really fun going into the Jesus Freaks forum now and learning more about the Bible. Ambrose, Nate, Daddy1Gringo, Anglican, Jenos, and Luns were all instrumental in answering some of my questions.

[Sargent Taylor]

Here's a question which split the early church: what is the modern answer?

Did Jesus always exist from the first moment of creation (and just got the job of being our scapegoat), or was he created specifically to go to Hell on our behalf?

If you aren't, and have never been a Christian yourself, this may sound like an esoteric question, but (and remember, the guy asking the question is not currently a Christian but used to be) it is a very important question to ALL Christians, especially if you find the official position of your own church questionable.

It is important, it seemed to me when I was a deep-thinking Christian, because it addresses the question of the fallibility or infallibility of God. If he intended all along to have Jesus die for your sins and mine, then this means he knew he'd created creatures who were unable to avoid sinning (or created the serpent who was capable of the original corruption which led to the Original Sin). In which case, my question was, how could he be so cruel as to make it impossible for all the generations before Jesus to go to the Heaven which he'd created for impossibly good people);

Or did he not know that he's set impossible standards, and created (sorry, begot) Jesus as a scapegoat to correct his own mistake, which makes him less cruel but fallible.

I have been known to mildy mock Christian beliefs in various posts - but this is a question which perplexed me when I was a Christian myslef, and which has caused rifts in Christianity (including executing those who come to a different conclusion as heretics) - so I am not trolling by asking this: merely curious as to where Christian CC posters stand.

First and foremost: Jesus is part of God and was in the beginning; John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The "Word" equals Jesus. Jesus help create the world, He wasn't created with it.
Okay. You said the generation before Jesus. They were saved just like we are: through faith. Remember God promised He would send His son. So they believed looking forward just the way we believe looking back. Gen. 15:6 " And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
I will look at the other one I just wanted to answer this one right away.

[Sargent Taylor]

Yes, I made the decision to submit my life to Jesus Christ some time ago. Thanks for your prayers. It's really fun going into the Jesus Freaks forum now and learning more about the Bible. Ambrose, Nate, Daddy1Gringo, Anglican, Jenos, and Luns were all instrumental in answering some of my questions.

That is so cool!!! BTW how do you get to the Jesus Freaks. I joined and I don't know how to get there. I feel like so confused.

[CoffeeCream]

Yes, I made the decision to submit my life to Jesus Christ some time ago. Thanks for your prayers. It's really fun going into the Jesus Freaks forum now and learning more about the Bible. Ambrose, Nate, Daddy1Gringo, Anglican, Jenos, and Luns were all instrumental in answering some of my questions.

That is so cool!!! BTW how do you get to the Jesus Freaks. I joined and I don't know how to get there. I feel like so confused.

pm Caleb the Cruel. But be warned! Luns101 is going around yelling at us to get in spiritual shape. No room for wimps! LOL You'll see what I mean when you gain access

[Sargent Taylor]

It is important, it seemed to me when I was a deep-thinking Christian, because it addresses the question of the fallibility or infallibility of God. If he intended all along to have Jesus die for your sins and mine, then this means he knew he'd created creatures who were unable to avoid sinning (or created the serpent who was capable of the original corruption which led to the Original Sin). In which case, my question was, how could he be so cruel as to make it impossible for all the generations before Jesus to go to the Heaven which he'd created for impossibly good people);

Or did he not know that he's set impossible standards, and created (sorry, begot) Jesus as a scapegoat to correct his own mistake, which makes him less cruel but fallible.

First of all, God is omniscience right? That means He knows everything. So God could tell you the answered to you questing couldn't He? GOD could, but you would be unable to understand it. I am not saying you are inept, but that there are things that God knows and we are actually incapable of understanding. But you see every single human chooses to sin. God didn't force Adam to eat the fruit did He? No. But He put it there because He wanted Adam to choose freely to obey. So God didn't just creating us knowing we would sin, but created us AND gave us the choice NOT to sin. Hey, and can you do something please? Stop for a minute, open your mind. You know, forget all of your biases and start from the beginning thinking of it all from God's perspective, as and author writing a book. I know it is hard but it has helped me personally. Honestly. These are very hard questions. I am sure lots of Christian struggle similarly. But God knows the answers and whatever the answers is it is just. And just because I do know what God means doesn't mean I am going to turn my back on Him. Personally, I would so rather trust God, Who is soooooooooo much smarter than me, than try to get on in this messed up [by our sin I might add] world on my own. Sorry, I know that is unrelated but it is easier to tell you how I feel than try to explain something I am not meant be any means to understand.

P.S. Coffeecream, I have joined but I don't know how to physically get there on the web page, like, how do I get there from here???

[Mr_Adams]

Hey, I didn't know this thread was till active! You'll just go hit the forum button at the top of the screen, then scroll down to where it says "Jesus Freaks"
This will be just like the "Announcements" and "General Discussion" forums. hope this helps you find it, and hope to see you there.

[Snorri1234]

It is important, it seemed to me when I was a deep-thinking Christian, because it addresses the question of the fallibility or infallibility of God. If he intended all along to have Jesus die for your sins and mine, then this means he knew he'd created creatures who were unable to avoid sinning (or created the serpent who was capable of the original corruption which led to the Original Sin). In which case, my question was, how could he be so cruel as to make it impossible for all the generations before Jesus to go to the Heaven which he'd created for impossibly good people);

Or did he not know that he's set impossible standards, and created (sorry, begot) Jesus as a scapegoat to correct his own mistake, which makes him less cruel but fallible.

First of all, God is omniscience right? That means He knows everything. So God could tell you the answered to you questing couldn't He? GOD could, but you would be unable to understand it. I am not saying you are inept, but that there are things that God knows and we are actually incapable of understanding. But you see every single human chooses to sin. God didn't force Adam to eat the fruit did He? No. But He put it there because He wanted Adam to choose freely to obey. So God didn't just creating us knowing we would sin, but created us AND gave us the choice NOT to sin. Hey, and can you do something please? Stop for a minute, open your mind. You know, forget all of your biases and start from the beginning thinking of it all from God's perspective, as and author writing a book. I know it is hard but it has helped me personally. Honestly. These are very hard questions. I am sure lots of Christian struggle similarly. But God knows the answers and whatever the answers is it is just. And just because I do know what God means doesn't mean I am going to turn my back on Him. Personally, I would so rather trust God, Who is soooooooooo much smarter than me, than try to get on in this messed up [by our sin I might add] world on my own. Sorry, I know that is unrelated but it is easier to tell you how I feel than try to explain something I am not meant be any means to understand.

So God knows everything, and therefore knew Adam would "choose" to sin, but still created him? This sounds like a typical case of the maker being the responsible party here. If I build a car which I know has no working breaks and sell it, then I'm responsible for any damages to the car and owner.

[Ntetos]

Since God can do anything can He create a rock so heavy so as not to be able to lift it up?

[jonesthecurl]

Since God can do anything can He create a rock so heavy so as not to be able to lift it up?

NO: those are just words in a row.
If the rock is so heavy he can't pick it up, he is not all-powerful. If he is all-powerful, the universe cannot contain something he can't pick up.
Besides, where is this rock sitting? On a planet which gives it "weight". Hey, think about how heavy that planet is...
And nobody claims God can do anything - he couldn't create a GOD so awesome he couldn't understand him.
And anyhow he's fictitious...

[jonesthecurl]

Here's a better question:
If God can do anything, can he create a universe with which he cannot interact?
Second question: did he?

[Snorri1234]

Here's a better question:
If God can do anything, can he create a universe with which he cannot interact?
Second question: did he?

[Sargent Taylor]

Here's a better question:
If God can do anything, can he create a universe with which he cannot interact?
Second question: did he?

I don't think you care whether or He could create a universe with which He could not interact, so I will skip that because it is a "supposing" that is unimportant.

Second, God does interact with us. There are tons and tons and tons of Christians who can testify that God answers prayer. Some times though He says no and when He does unbelievers say that He isn't answering pray. But He is. We just don't always like His answer. The world could not operate with out God. Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing." God is here, He saved me. When I talk to Him some times I feel upset or tense, but while I am asking for His help I feel calmer. You may say that is a psychological reaction; my sub conscience is being satisfied by talking to air. Well, that isn't true. I know God personally. Not only do you see His handy work in nature but you see His love. Jesus came to earth and gave His blood, was shamed, beaten, spit on, mocked and literally nailed to two big boards so you could know Him and live with Him for ever. If that's not love, then love is a word for something that we can't get, have or find.
Jesus loves you....always.

[Sargent Taylor]

Well the problem is, is that you guys are looking at the whole thing from your own perspective. So you aren't being fair to God. God didn't make people and send them to Hell, God made people, they disobey, are on there way to Hell and God offers them a path to get out of their hopelessness. What's wrong with that? You can get to Heaven. But people say no, and go to Hell. It is their own fault. If you were in a sea drowning and someone threw you a life preserver, and you said no to it, well that sure sounds like your fault to me. God offers you a gift. All you do is say you are sorry for doing wrong and ask Jesus to save you from Hell, death and eternal pain and suffering. It is so wonderful to be forgiven and to not have the weight of sin on your back.

(Jesus loves you...always.)

[Snorri1234]

Second, God does interact with us. There are tons and tons and tons of Christians who can testify that God answers prayer. Some times though He says no and when He does unbelievers say that He isn't answering pray. But He is. We just don't always like His answer.

Well that's pretty much brilliant. You claim that whatever happens, god did it? So if I pray to win the lottery, and then win it I owe it all to god? And if pray to win the lottery, but I don't win then God obviously knew such a thing would spoil me and therefore he didn't give me it?

Soooooo....do the words "logic" and "reason" mean anything to you?

The world could not operate with out God. Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing." God is here, He saved me. When I talk to Him some times I feel upset or tense, but while I am asking for His help I feel calmer. You may say that is a psychological reaction; my sub conscience is being satisfied by talking to air. Well, that isn't true.

Well good for you that it calmes you down. I personally can't claim anything about what happens when you pray, so I'm not going to judge there.

I know God personally.

Really? Does he tell any good jokes?

[Snorri1234]

Well the problem is, is that you guys are looking at the whole thing from your own perspective. So you aren't being fair to God. God didn't make people and send them to Hell, God made people, they disobey, are on there way to Hell

Yes, and since God knows everything he fucking knew they would disobey. So basically he created a product that he knew was flawed but when it malfunctioned claimed it's not his fault.

[Sargent Taylor]

NO: those are just words in a row.
If the rock is so heavy he can't pick it up, he is not all-powerful. If he is all-powerful, the universe cannot contain something he can't pick up.
Besides, where is this rock sitting? On a planet which gives it "weight". Hey, think about how heavy that planet is...
And nobody claims God can do anything - he couldn't create a GOD so awesome he couldn't understand him.
And anyhow he's fictitious...

God didn't create God. God has always existed. That is impossible for us to understand because we are trapped in time and we cannot understand being outside of time and God is outside of time. He looks at time the way we look at a time line sorta'. He sees it all.

Anyway, God does understand Himself. And we aren't meant to be able to understand Him because He is beyond comprehension (understand?). God is all-knowing. He has infinite knowledge and knows things we don't even know, can be known. God made us to serve Him. That is our purpose in life. If you are ever sitting around wondering why you are here, it is so that you can worship, serve, praise, honor and glorify God.
So God decides to make people to worship Him. Well, robots aren't any fun when it comes to being worshiped. So God makes people and gives them the choice whether or not to worship Him. And they don't know anything like what God knows. Like what is the point of making them know as much as Him? All they need to know how to do is praise God and how to feed ourselves and little things like that. But then there are ones who say, well I don't understand you! Yada, yada. Well, why do you need to understand God? All we have to do is worship Him and bring others to Him. It is a lot easier to say, God you are so amazing that I don't even understand you but I am going to worship you because you love me, created me, and died for me. God is amazing. And Jesus loves you...always.

[MeDeFe]

God didn't create God. God has always existed. That is impossible for us to understand because we are trapped in time and we cannot understand being outside of time and God is outside of time. He looks at time the way we look at a time line sorta'. He sees it all.

Anyway, God does understand Himself. And we aren't meant to be able to understand Him because He is beyond comprehension (understand?). God is all-knowing. He has infinite knowledge and knows things we don't even know, can be known. God made us to serve Him. That is our purpose in life. If you are ever sitting around wondering why you are here, it is so that you can worship, serve, praise, honor and glorify God.
So God decides to make people to worship Him. Well, robots aren't any fun when it comes to being worshiped. So God makes people and gives them the choice whether or not to worship Him. And they don't know anything like what God knows. Like what is the point of making them know as much as Him? All they need to know how to do is praise God and how to feed ourselves and little things like that. But then there are ones who say, well I don't understand you! Yada, yada. Well, why do you need to understand God? All we have to do is worship Him and bring others to Him. It is a lot easier to say, God you are so amazing that I don't even understand you but I am going to worship you because you love me, created me, and died for me. God is amazing. And Jesus loves you...always.

If god exists and is anything like what you describe, god can kiss my ass and go f*ck himself, I see no reason to pray to and glorify an arsehole like that. Do you even realize what you're saying there? On the one hand god creates us for the sole reason so we can entertain him whether we like it or not, and he supposedly loves us? Is he schizophrenic or what? Sir, your system of belief is inconsistent to say the least.

[Sargent Taylor]

Second, God does interact with us. There are tons and tons and tons of Christians who can testify that God answers prayer. Some times though He says no and when He does unbelievers say that He isn't answering pray. But He is. We just don't always like His answer.

So if I pray to win the lottery, and then win it I owe it all to god? And if pray to win the lottery, but I don't win then God obviously knew such a thing would spoil me and therefore he didn't give me it?

If you asked God for money and you got money, all God asks it 10%. Seriously.
But God will say no to us for different reasons. We don't always know the reasons, but we trust in God and we know what God does is best. I know that sounds cheesy because it is faith. If you don't understand only God can help you. If you aren't trying to understand, I can't make you.

I know God personally.

Really? Does he tell any good jokes?

Actually, God does have a sense of humor. Some times we don't understand Him, or His plan, but we just leave it up to Him, some times He answers our prayers or helps us in our daily life in a way that the circumstances are really funny. I can't think of and example but I have heard quite a few testimonies like that. Where God does it in a way that is funny.

And God didn't make humans flawed, He made Adam perfect with a choice whether or not to obey Him. But Eve was tempted by Satan and made a bad choice. Then she offered Adam the forbidden fruit and he made a bad choice too. When Adam sinned, the nature to sin was pasted down the way genes are passed down.

[Sargent Taylor]

God didn't create God. God has always existed. That is impossible for us to understand because we are trapped in time and we cannot understand being outside of time and God is outside of time. He looks at time the way we look at a time line sorta'. He sees it all.

Anyway, God does understand Himself. And we aren't meant to be able to understand Him because He is beyond comprehension (understand?). God is all-knowing. He has infinite knowledge and knows things we don't even know, can be known. God made us to serve Him. That is our purpose in life. If you are ever sitting around wondering why you are here, it is so that you can worship, serve, praise, honor and glorify God.
So God decides to make people to worship Him. Well, robots aren't any fun when it comes to being worshiped. So God makes people and gives them the choice whether or not to worship Him. And they don't know anything like what God knows. Like what is the point of making them know as much as Him? All they need to know how to do is praise God and how to feed ourselves and little things like that. But then there are ones who say, well I don't understand you! Yada, yada. Well, why do you need to understand God? All we have to do is worship Him and bring others to Him. It is a lot easier to say, God you are so amazing that I don't even understand you but I am going to worship you because you love me, created me, and died for me. God is amazing. And Jesus loves you...always.

If god exists and is anything like what you describe,-----, and he supposedly loves us? Is he schizophrenic or what? Sir, your system of belief is inconsistent to say the least.

I can't explain everything. If you read the Bible you would understand a little better. And besides if you don't want to worship God then there is nothing to be done. But God created you remember. And if you are arguing to argue then nothing I can say will ever be sufficient. If you don't want to understand then what is the point. You want to prove me wrong. If you don't what to understand, you never will. Whether you do or not Jesus loves you.

[Snorri1234]

Second, God does interact with us. There are tons and tons and tons of Christians who can testify that God answers prayer. Some times though He says no and when He does unbelievers say that He isn't answering pray. But He is. We just don't always like His answer.

So if I pray to win the lottery, and then win it I owe it all to god? And if pray to win the lottery, but I don't win then God obviously knew such a thing would spoil me and therefore he didn't give me it?

If you asked God for money and you got money, all God asks it 10%. Seriously.
But God will say no to us for different reasons. We don't always know the reasons, but we trust in God and we know what God does is best. I know that sounds cheesy because it is faith. If you don't understand only God can help you. If you aren't trying to understand, I can't make you.

Well as long as you admit it's faith.

And God didn't make humans flawed, He made Adam perfect with a choice whether or not to obey Him.

Yeah, and he knew he would falter. He knew it, no question, because he's god.

[CoffeeCream]

Since God can do anything can He create a rock so heavy so as not to be able to lift it up?

No, because (1) that would no longer be a rock and (2) God doesn't tempt Himself. It's inconsistent with His nature

You can choose to not submit to God, but using illogical comparisons is silly