Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[Ntetos]

And God didn't make humans flawed, He made Adam perfect with a choice whether or not to obey Him.

Yeah, and he knew he would falter. He knew it, no question, because he's god.[/quote]

So since He knew that we were going to do it and He let us do it means He doesn't love us. A parent for example who loves his child isn't going to let it do something that will harm it. He just doesn't care about us.

[PLAYER57832]

And God didn't make humans flawed, He made Adam perfect with a choice whether or not to obey Him.

[quote by unkown???]Yeah, and he knew he would falter. He knew it, no question, because he's god.

So since He knew that we were going to do it and He let us do it means He doesn't love us. A parent for example who loves his child isn't going to let it do something that will harm it. He just doesn't care about us.

Just letting your child go out the door is letting them do something that will cause harm. Are we to keep our kids in boxes? They would be safe!

God gave us choices. Did he know that some would fail. Yes, but he knew that many would not be as great if it were not for those possible failings. What chance for one like Mother Teresa if no illness existed?

[Snorri1234]

What chance for one like Mother Teresa if no illness existed?

What need for a Mother Teresa if no illness existed?

The problem here is that OT-god and NT-god are really completely different persons. OT-God is an enormous dick at times like with Job and that time he told a bunch of guys that it was totally ok to go somewhere and kill a bunch of other guys, but he also was nice at times. He was like the other gods at that time but people explained that he was all those gods actually.

NT-God is supposedly Love (with the big l), but he really just doesn't seem to rhyme with OT-God or basically anything that happens in the world. If he is what he claims he is, then the best conclusion to make is that he abbandoned us and doesn't involve in this world untill a time when he deems it's enough.

At first God punished those who sinned (or more accurately, people claimed that others who died during some tragedy were obviously sinners), but with the NT he doesn't punish us.

[PLAYER57832]

What chance for one like Mother Teresa if no illness existed?

What need for a Mother Teresa if no illness existed?

The problem here is that OT-god and NT-god are really completely different persons. OT-God is an enormous dick at times like with Job and that time he told a bunch of guys that it was totally ok to go somewhere and kill a bunch of other guys, but he also was nice at times. He was like the other gods at that time but people explained that he was all those gods actually.

NT-God is supposedly Love (with the big l), but he really just doesn't seem to rhyme with OT-God or basically anything that happens in the world. If he is what he claims he is, then the best conclusion to make is that he abbandoned us and doesn't involve in this world untill a time when he deems it's enough.

At first God punished those who sinned (or more accurately, people claimed that others who died during some tragedy were obviously sinners), but with the NT he doesn't punish us.

God didn't change. People did.

[jonesthecurl]

Second, God does interact with us. There are tons and tons and tons of Christians who can testify that God answers prayer. Some times though He says no and when He does unbelievers say that He isn't answering pray. But He is. We just don't always like His answer.

Well that's pretty much brilliant. You claim that whatever happens, god did it? So if I pray to win the lottery, and then win it I owe it all to god? And if pray to win the lottery, but I don't win then God obviously knew such a thing would spoil me and therefore he didn't give me it?

Soooooo....do the words "logic" and "reason" mean anything to you?

The world could not operate with out God. Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing." God is here, He saved me. When I talk to Him some times I feel upset or tense, but while I am asking for His help I feel calmer. You may say that is a psychological reaction; my sub conscience is being satisfied by talking to air. Well, that isn't true.

Well good for you that it calmes you down. I personally can't claim anything about what happens when you pray, so I'm not going to judge there.

I know God personally.

Really? Does he tell any good jokes?

Yes: the tree kangaroo. I mean, who said God doesn't have a sense of humour?

[suggs]

God didn't change. People did.

...and we're back at Player34523's Sunday school.
Are you seriously trying to maintain the OT God and the NT god are the same?
In your answer, please refrain from using guff such as "social context" or "we are too frail to understand god"

Plus, Gods not very good if he can't change is he?
Or can we Nuke him now,seeing as he is still using bow and arrows?

[Dancing Mustard]

Guns don't kill people. Rappers do.

Fucking amen to that.

[Mr_Adams]

to lazy to read whole thread, but here's an example of why I'm convinced that the christian god is the real god.

Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing."

written thousands of years before the heliocentric solar system was thought up, back when the "great" greek philosophers, such as Aristotle and Plato, still believed that the Earth was carried around by a Titan named Atlas.

Another verse says that man does not understand "even the complexity of a Beaver's tooth"

A hardware company recently discovered that by mimicking the beaver's tooth (Soft in front, hard in back, so that it stays sharp as it wears away) they could make saw blades that stayed sharp 5 times as long.

Once again, a good 4000 years before we knew this...

[PLAYER57832]

God didn't change. People did.

...and we're back at Player34523's Sunday school.
Are you seriously trying to maintain the OT God and the NT god are the same?
In your answer, please refrain from using guff such as "social context" or "we are too frail to understand god"

Plus, Gods not very good if he can't change is he?
Or can we Nuke him now,seeing as he is still using bow and arrows?

Yes, I believe they are the same God, but that our relationship with God changed.

But, I am not trying to prove anything. It cannot be proven. Either you believe or you don't. You don't.

As for God changing.. what is the nature of the universe and time anyway? How could there be a beginning and end to time. Answer that, and you might have your answer.

[suggs]

If I could answer that, I'd me making a shit load of cash and sleeping with the most expensive prozzies that money could by.

But since time and the universe have nothing to do with a made up ghost with an unrealistic beard, I dont quite get your point

[Snorri1234]

written thousands of years before the heliocentric solar system was thought up, back when the "great" greek philosophers, such as Aristotle and Plato, still believed that the Earth was carried around by a Titan named Atlas.

Had you been aware of such things (or read the thread), you'd know that those guys really didn't believe in such stuff. It's even doubtfull if they actually believed in the Greek gods, something which surely would've shone trough in their philosophies if it did.

[PLAYER57832]

If I could answer that, I'd me making a shit load of cash and sleeping with the most expensive prozzies that money could by.

But since time and the universe have nothing to do with a made up ghost with an unrealistic beard, I dont quite get your point

ahem, I don't see God as having a beard, but anyway ...

If you can answer the nature of time, then you can answer how God can be present in all time ... and much of the rest. It is basically outside of our abilities to understand (time, I mean). So, too is much about God, though I find God much easier to understand than the time thing.

BUT, faith is not something that can be proven by logic. I am logical, but I also have faith. You don't.

[suggs]

I have reason, you have an illogical,immature and frankly made up load of hokey-cokey. Call that faith if you wish.
The rest of that stoned out hippie nonsense about god and time is just that. Nonsense.
I'm sorry, but people in cults do tend to wind me up.

[Napoleon Ier]

I have reason, you have an illogical,immature and frankly made up load of hokey-cokey. Call that faith if you wish.
The rest of that stoned out hippie nonsense about god and time is just that. Nonsense.
I'm sorry, but people in cults do tend to wind me up.

[ilikehistory]

4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

This probably has been answered, but God didn't create hell for people. Hell was originally created for Satan and his demons. Secondly, God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves by not believing in him.

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

People are free to do whatever they want. Romans 1 talks about this.

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

What sums that up is this: The more one sins the farther and farther he goes until he does kill someone.

The law is also here to show us that we can't keep it. If we all could keep the law then why is there a need for a law?

I have a question for you too. Why don't you try to prove the Bible wrong instead of us proving that it is right? There are countless stories of people trying to do just that and becoming Christians themselves because they couldn't prove the Bible wrong.

[dskyline]

This is for all the poeple who feel God doesn't have a sense of humour, I have enjoyed a Dalmatian for the last 12 years that has spots on her backside in the shape of a great big smile face. Everybody Chill !
God Bless The Jesus Freaks

[Frigidus]

I have a question for you too. Why don't you try to prove the Bible wrong instead of us proving that it is right? There are countless stories of people trying to do just that and becoming Christians themselves because they couldn't prove the Bible wrong.

Because it would be along the lines of trying to prove The Aeniad wrong. It's as old as the hills and there's nobody left who can corroborate or disprove any of its claims. Rather, it is a better line of reasoning to discuss the nature of God, and suggest that it's existence is either logical or illogical. I personally side with the latter.

[muy_thaiguy]

I have a question for you too. Why don't you try to prove the Bible wrong instead of us proving that it is right? There are countless stories of people trying to do just that and becoming Christians themselves because they couldn't prove the Bible wrong.

Because it would be along the lines of trying to prove The Aeniad wrong. It's as old as the hills and there's nobody left who can corroborate or disprove any of its claims. Rather, it is a better line of reasoning to discuss the nature of God, and suggest that it's existence is either logical or illogical. I personally side with the latter.

While I side with the former.

[Jenos Ridan]

1. The existence of something is intelligible only if it has an explanation (this is confirmed by the definition of the term intelligibility.).

2. The existence of the Universe is therefore either:
a. unintelligible, or
b. has an explanation

(logical deduction from #1)

3. No rational person should accept 2a. (Confirmed by the definition of rationality.)

4. Therefore, 2b is the rational conclusion and the Universe has an explanation.

5. But there are only three kinds of explanation:
a) Scientific: C + L = E (Independent physical, initial conditions, plus relevant laws, yield the Event explained.)
b) Essential: the essence of the thing to be explained requires it's existence.
c) Personal: this posits explanations that cite the intentions and powers of some personal Agent.

6. The existence of the Universe cannot be explained Scientifically; if the Universe is just natural conditions and laws, there can be no initial physical conditions or laws outside of it--independent of it--to explain it.

7. The explanation cannot be an Essential one; the Universe is a contingent one, and therefore is not necessary. It could just as well 'not exist' as exist. Its essence doesn't require it to existence.

8. So a rational person should believe that the Universe has a Personal explanation.

9. The only personal agent capable--having the power and wisdom--to create the entire universe out of nothing is 'God'.

10. Therefore, a rational person believes there exists a God.


So.

How now, brown cow?

[MeDeFe]

You know, third time is not a charm, at least not in this case. That has been debunked twice already.

[muy_thaiguy]

You know, third time is not a charm, at least not in this case. That has been debunked twice already.

So has Germany.

[MeDeFe]

You know, third time is not a charm, at least not in this case. That has been debunked twice already.

So has Germany.

Which has exactly what to do with the topic at hand? And since you seem to care about nationalities, I'm a Finnish citizen, nice to meet you.

[joecoolfrog]

It depends what you mean by wrong, certainly science has indicated that a large part of the
Old Testanent cannot be taken literally. If you still wish to believe in Adam and Eve,talking snakes and Noahs flood then that can only be a matter of faith because all evidence points to these events not happening.

[suggs]

Jenos, one of the almost countless problems with your reasons lie in your very first premise, "Everything exists must have an explanation". Why? It could just be random.

[Napoleon Ier]

You know, third time is not a charm, at least not in this case. That has been debunked twice already.

So has Germany.

Which has exactly what to do with the topic at hand? And since you seem to care about nationalities, I'm a Finnish citizen, nice to meet you.

You're Finnish eh? Surely you're just a cheap rip-off of Norwegian people then?