Logic dictates that there is a God!

[heavycola]

I for one find it far easier to believe in a God than a paralell universe SOMEHOW chucking enough and the right type of matter into THIS one in a completely random scenario which then explodes and somehow we wind up with humankind.

That's your choice. It's only one theory, and i wouldn't call it a 'leap of faith' either. You are using the anthropic principle - we MUST be important! there Must be a reason for our existence given its staggering improbability!

When perhaps another way to look at it might be - if the conditions for life didn't exist, we wouldn't be here to ask these questions or hold these beliefs. It simply happened that the conditions are right, and so we are here. That's all.

Otherwise you are just talkign about a 'god of the gaps', and he has been getting smaller as our knowledge has grown. Eventually he'll disappear.

[jay_a2j]

First of all we must agree that there is a difference between evolution and adaptation.

but there IS no difference between evolution and adaptation! Evolution is just a series of adaptation until eventually something has adapted to it's surroundings so much it gradually becomes a completely different animal!

Adapatation is the changing of characteristics of an animal due to nessesity. However it remains that same species of animal. Every animal has a different number of chromosomes which DEFINE that animal. You can't go to the store and buy more chromosomes, or lose them in order to become another animal.

[heavycola]

First of all we must agree that there is a difference between evolution and adaptation.

but there IS no difference between evolution and adaptation! Evolution is just a series of adaptation until eventually something has adapted to it's surroundings so much it gradually becomes a completely different animal!

Adapatation is the changing of characteristics of an animal due to nessesity. However it remains that same species of animal. Every animal has a different number of chromosomes which DEFINE that animal. You can't go to the store and buy more chromosomes, or lose them in order to become another animal.

Jay, you lost this argument, such as it was, ages ago.

[vtmarik]

Adapatation is the changing of characteristics of an animal due to nessesity. However it remains that same species of animal. Every animal has a different number of chromosomes which DEFINE that animal. You can't go to the store and buy more chromosomes, or lose them in order to become another animal.

They do change however, according to the law of conservation of matter.

The number of chromosomes doesn't change, it's the chromosomes themselves that mutate and shift.

[jay_a2j]

Adapatation is the changing of characteristics of an animal due to nessesity. However it remains that same species of animal. Every animal has a different number of chromosomes which DEFINE that animal. You can't go to the store and buy more chromosomes, or lose them in order to become another animal.

They do change however, according to the law of conservation of matter.

The number of chromosomes doesn't change, it's the chromosomes themselves that mutate and shift.

Evidenced by?

Well since heavycola has conceeded the arguement for lack of substansive evidence... the players have changed.

[Backglass]

lol, then atheists make FAR bigger leaps of faith than believers.

Atheism is not a scientific theory, rather a lack of religion. We do believe in science, and that all questions will eventually be answered with science if they are not answered today. It's gone well so far, giving theories regarding evolution, geological movement, and the Big Bang, all supported by evidence, but not necessarily endorsed by all atheists.

Creationism does not give all the answers, either. Furthermore, it goes so far as to choose which questions to answer, and discourages the asking of the rest. Believers are loath to discuss where God came from, or what he was doing before the creation. They refuse to give good answers for the many biblical inconsistencies or for the terrible injustices in the world, because they know that no such answers exist. They merely answer with "there are things which we mere humans cannot fully understand" or "the Lord works in mysterious ways". In the end, religion doesn't answer as many questions as it raises.

[Jolly Roger]

Precisely. But what made the matter reached that infinitely condensed state? That's where my view of the supernatural comes in... if everything around is vacuum, what force could make matter defy the laws of physics and converge into an infinitely small point, thus doing exactly the opposite of what the laws of physics suggest, it SHOULD go the other way around, unless there is an external force... see where I'm going? :)

Yeah, I see where you're going. Makes sense in some way, I'm just not sure if it's the explanation that works for me.


I like you Ambrose, you approach these things with intelligence and finesse. Perhaps one day we could meet and have coffee.

I mostly agree with Ambrose as well. However, I should point out that God is not the default answer to anything science can't explain. The true origin of the life, the universe and everything might lie beyond our comprehension or our imagination.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Precisely. But what made the matter reached that infinitely condensed state? That's where my view of the supernatural comes in... if everything around is vacuum, what force could make matter defy the laws of physics and converge into an infinitely small point, thus doing exactly the opposite of what the laws of physics suggest, it SHOULD go the other way around, unless there is an external force... see where I'm going?

Yeah, I see where you're going. Makes sense in some way, I'm just not sure if it's the explanation that works for me.


I like you Ambrose, you approach these things with intelligence and finesse. Perhaps one day we could meet and have coffee.

I mostly agree with Ambrose as well. However, I should point out that God is not the default answer to anything science can't explain. The true origin of the life, the universe and everything might lie beyond our comprehension or our imagination.

I understand that as well. What I am saying is that there IS a case for God. To be perfectly honest, I've never put much research into this particular topic, so I can't say for certain what expert theologians have to say on the matter, this is just the result of my musings.

In any event, here's my point.

God is not an unreasonable concept.

[Backglass]

God is not an unreasonable concept.

Maybe to you. To my ears it sounds as silly as believing in the tooth fairy or "Ra" the sun god.

[OnlyAmbrose]

God is not an unreasonable concept.

Maybe to you. To my ears it sounds as silly as believing in the tooth fairy or "Ra" the sun god.

Just as unreasonable as a paralell universe (if such a thing exists...) somehow inserting its own substance into ours?

The whole point of my lengthy analysis of the Big Bang theory is that digging down to the atheist's story of creation, there is some inexplicable event happening THERE as well- namely, how that clump of matter got so condensed in the first place, and how it got there at all.

The entire concept of matter behaving like that is unreasonable. And you may say that the existance of a god is unreasonable as well, but I don't see it as any more unreasonable than the logic behind the Big Bang theory (which I for one believe in, just insert a divine being).

What I'm basically saying is that pure science leaves many questions unanswered as well (and in roughly the same places). You question where God came from, I question where matter came from. You question what God was doing before creation, I question what that matter was doing to make it behave in such a way as suggested in the big bang. Atheism and theism are not so different, when you think about it, in the questions they try to answer and in the completeness by which they answer them.

[Herakilla]

i remember so far back that i can recall the formation of this thread!

[heavycola]

Adapatation is the changing of characteristics of an animal due to nessesity. However it remains that same species of animal. Every animal has a different number of chromosomes which DEFINE that animal. You can't go to the store and buy more chromosomes, or lose them in order to become another animal.

They do change however, according to the law of conservation of matter.

The number of chromosomes doesn't change, it's the chromosomes themselves that mutate and shift.

Evidenced by?

Well since heavycola has conceeded the arguement for lack of substansive evidence... the players have changed.

yes jay, i conceded

Evolution = theory arrived at after consideration of substantive evidence
Creationism = theory arrived at after reading an old book.

[Backglass]

Just as unreasonable as a paralell universe (if such a thing exists...) somehow inserting its own substance into ours?

I never said I believed in that. I just dont believe there are any gods. That's all Atheism is. Absense of religion.

Thats all.

there is some inexplicable event happening THERE as well- namely, how that clump of matter got so condensed in the first place, and how it got there at all.

Actually I will use the same answer the creationists use. It's always been here. The universe is infinite.

The entire concept of matter behaving like that is unreasonable. And you may say that the existance of a god is unreasonable as well, but I don't see it as any more unreasonable than the logic behind the Big Bang theory (which I for one believe in, just insert a divine being).

Again, you are assuming that all Atheists believe in the Big Bang or subscribe to some theory or doctrine. Atheists are not a church, or unified in any way...other than the fact that we ALL believe that there isnt a mystery man playing "cosmic ant-farm" with our planet from a fluffy white cloud.

You question where God came from

No. There are no gods. Diety's were/are invented to give people something to hope for...a reason to be here...to keep them in line.

Atheists need no such crutch.

I question where matter came from.

In MY opinion...matter has always been here, it's infinite. Humans have a hard time with infinity, be they Atheists or Christians.

Atheism and theism are not so different, when you think about it, in the questions they try to answer and in the completeness by which they answer them.

Again, you are treating Atheism as a religion or organization. It isnt. You can understand why theists believe this however, after being told this over and over by their preachers. This belief is reinforced by the fact that believers must be bound by much more than a simple belief in God. For example, Catholics must also have the same stances on abortion, contraception, and homosexuality in order to be called a "good Catholic." It only goes to follow that atheism must be similar.

However, atheism is not a religion, rather the absence of religion. There is no Atheists Bible or code of commandments. As such, we are bound only by our atheism. We are republicans and democrats, men and women, gays and straights, blacks and whites. We accept every person as they are as equals, and delight in our diversity (not many religions can say that). We disagree with each other on many issues, and discussion is encouraged and common.

Above all, atheists demand the right to disagree, even if it means with each other.

[OnlyAmbrose]

I'll respond when I get home from school

[Knight of Orient]

quote=vtmarik:An eternity of hellish damnation for a single lifetime of sin.




The reason Jesus died on the cross was to keep us from Hell. Those that believe in him will be saved. You could be the worst person on earth.....but that would not make the slightest difference.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave, his only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting light." John 3:16.

God loves everyone, but he will not force you to believe him. That is up to you. He has however given all a chance to be redeemed, saved, for he does not wish to see anyone go to Hell.

I think that if someone loves me that much, then I cant really turn down the offer he has made to me.....

The offer to spend eternity in Heaven.

This is the last that I will post in this thread. If anyone wishes to converse on this topic, please, send me a private message. I will always be willing to talk about and for Christ.

-Knight

[jay_a2j]

backglass, you profess that you are an atheist and you define it as lacking "any religion" or "the belief in any god". But little do you realize you have a religion. Atheism is your religion. I read your posts and cringe. You say with such confidence "There are no gods" and "the notion to me is as silly as the Easter Bunny". THIS is all an opinion... you have no facts yet you speak like you do (and you are wrong as wrong can be). You have as much faith in your belief that there are no gods as many people of faith have in their God. So you DO have a religion...ye who professes to hate it so much.

[Mirak]

Jay

Belief is not the same as Religion...but you knew that
tut...tut..

[jay_a2j]

Jay

Belief is not the same as Religion...but you knew that
tut...tut..

And Jesus Himself spoke out against "the religious". but you knew that.

[heavycola]

You have as much faith in your belief that there are no gods as many people of faith have in their God. So you DO have a religion

::tears hair out in clumps::

Jay - a religion involves belief in a higher power and the observance of ritual in that higher power's name.

Atheism doesn't involve anything at all. It is just a belief that there is no god or gods. That's all. To call it a religion is absolutely ridiculous.

And i don't profess to hate religion, except when it interferes with the lives of those who want nothing to do with it - teaching fallacious, unscientific nonsense in schools, for example, or complaining when the ten commandments are taken down from classrooms and courts. If you could all just get on with believing in whatever it is you believe - genesis, witches etc - without bnothering the rest of us, i don't think religion would inspire much dislike at all.

[Mirak]

Jay

Didn't actually...... thanks for clarifying that...
so what does that mean

[jay_a2j]

Jay

Didn't actually...... thanks for clarifying that...
so what does that mean

True Christianity is a relationship with God. The religious have set "rituals" and "observances". Religion was created by man and is flawed. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." Denominations are man made. We are to follow Christ not a certain denomination.

[Mirak]

Hence atheism is not a religion

[jay_a2j]

Hence atheism is not a religion

Its a faith. Faith in nothing. Or better still, faith in oneself.

[reverend_kyle]

Hence atheism is not a religion

Its a faith. Faith in nothing. Or better still, faith in oneself.

Thats actually the first non biased fair thing I think I\'ve heard you say about atheists.. perhaps you\'re coming around.

[Backglass]

The reason Jesus died on the cross.....

Ya ya ya...Saying "It's true because it's here in this book!" means nothing to me. Suess wrote "I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees" but that doesnt make the Lorax real.

This is the last that I will post in this thread.

Well if you cant prove your argument, then I agree it's probably better to just give up.

Its a faith. Faith in nothing. Or better still, faith in oneself.

Hey we agree! I have faith in people & personal responsibility. No "The Devil made me do it" cop out or "It was gods will that Joe got hit by that bus".

I read your posts and cringe.

I read your posts and shake my head in amazement.

You say with such confidence "There are no gods" and "the notion to me is as silly as the Easter Bunny". THIS is all an opinion... you have no facts yet you speak like you do

And neither do you.

Atheists don't need to prove the non-existence of gods, any more we need to prove the nonexistence of Zeus or Jupiter. Can you prove your god over any alternatives? Of course not. You cannot prove your god exists, yet you will stand on your head saying you are sure.

Well, if you can be sure despite evidence to the contrary, I can be sure in light of evidence in support of atheism.