Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[natty dread]

[ At the time of Trayvon's death, we was serving a 10 days suspension for "DRUGS".

Wow, DRUGS?

I mean, drugs would have been bad enough, but DRUGS?

Hell, I'm convinced. Let the killer go.

[codeblue1018]

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

[Phatscotty]

[ At the time of Trayvon's death, we was serving a 10 days suspension for "DRUGS".

Wow, DRUGS?

I mean, drugs would have been bad enough, but DRUGS?

Hell, I'm convinced. Let the killer go.

Yup, drugs. Many people, including myself, just wanted to know what he was suspended for. It does bolster Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon was high or on drugs and acting weird the night of the incident. Pretty much the same way I'm sure you want to hear the previous 911 calls of Zimmerman in order to find proof he is a racist.

Zimmerman is not in custody to be able to be let go. Perhaps you should do some reading and then maybe you can see your errors in this thread. I have been providing links all along the way, mostly from the NY times, so you KNOW it's true!

[pimpdave]

The minors record has been kept confidential, as I said. As I also said, the family spokeperson released the reason for suspension.

Do you even read the posts your respond to?

All you said was that a family spokesperson clarified that it was a little weed. Not that they were the ones who released confidential records.

[Phatscotty]

I will speculate a little bit. Zimmerman is a neighborhood watchman. He saw a stranger (Trayvon did not live there) walking through the closed community. The watchman asked Trayvon if he lived there and maybe where he was going. Trayvon told him to go f*ck himself. Zimmerman got out of the car and told Trayvon to show him how someone fucks themselves. They got into a fight, Trayvon was getting the best of Zimmerman, and Zimm pulled out the gun and shot him.

Even in your speculative fantasy, Zimmerman is obviously at fault.

"He told me to go f*ck myself", is not a valid reason to confront someone physically. Also, losing a fight to and unarmed person half your size (a fight that you initiated), is not a valid reason to shoot someone to death.

lmao

Ah yes, that makes much more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

Attempting to ask someone who does not live in crime riddled neighborhood where they are going is a valid reason to approach someone.

[Phatscotty]

The minors record has been kept confidential, as I said. As I also said, the family spokeperson released the reason for suspension.

Do you even read the posts your respond to?

All you said was that a family spokesperson clarified that it was a little weed. Not that they were the ones who released confidential records.

the confidential records are still confidential. I suppose the family made that statement because it's kind of hard to continue making someone look like an innocent angel while dodging repeated questions from the media as to why he was suspended for 10 days.

[AAFitz]

[ At the time of Trayvon's death, we was serving a 10 days suspension for "DRUGS".

Wow, DRUGS?

I mean, drugs would have been bad enough, but DRUGS?

Hell, I'm convinced. Let the killer go.

Yup, drugs. Many people, including myself, just wanted to know what he was suspended for. It does bolster Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon was high or on drugs and acting weird the night of the incident. Pretty much the same way I'm sure you want to hear the previous 911 calls of Zimmerman in order to find proof he is a racist.

Zimmerman is not in custody to be able to be let go. Perhaps you should do some reading and then maybe you can see your errors in this thread. I have been providing links all along the way, mostly from the NY times, so you KNOW it's true!

Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital. Maybe he was intoxicated or on drugs. Theres absolutely no evidence anyone was on drugs right now, so we might as well speculate that the cops were too.

[Phatscotty]

[ At the time of Trayvon's death, we was serving a 10 days suspension for "DRUGS".

Wow, DRUGS?

I mean, drugs would have been bad enough, but DRUGS?

Hell, I'm convinced. Let the killer go.

Yup, drugs. Many people, including myself, just wanted to know what he was suspended for. It does bolster Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon was high or on drugs and acting weird the night of the incident. Pretty much the same way I'm sure you want to hear the previous 911 calls of Zimmerman in order to find proof he is a racist.

Zimmerman is not in custody to be able to be let go. Perhaps you should do some reading and then maybe you can see your errors in this thread. I have been providing links all along the way, mostly from the NY times, so you KNOW it's true!

Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital. Maybe he was intoxicated or on drugs. Theres absolutely no evidence anyone was on drugs right now, so we might as well speculate that the cops were too.

Just a witnesses...

[codeblue1018]

[ At the time of Trayvon's death, we was serving a 10 days suspension for "DRUGS".

Wow, DRUGS?

I mean, drugs would have been bad enough, but DRUGS?

Hell, I'm convinced. Let the killer go.

Yup, drugs. Many people, including myself, just wanted to know what he was suspended for. It does bolster Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon was high or on drugs and acting weird the night of the incident. Pretty much the same way I'm sure you want to hear the previous 911 calls of Zimmerman in order to find proof he is a racist.

Zimmerman is not in custody to be able to be let go. Perhaps you should do some reading and then maybe you can see your errors in this thread. I have been providing links all along the way, mostly from the NY times, so you KNOW it's true!

Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital. Maybe he was intoxicated or on drugs. Theres absolutely no evidence anyone was on drugs right now, so we might as well speculate that the cops were too.

Drugs are irrelevant; Zimmerman was assaulted and sustained minor injuries as a result of Martin assaulting him. Not my opinion; facts!

Perhaps Fitzy is right tho; perhaps the police officers were high.

[Timminz]

I will speculate a little bit. Zimmerman is a neighborhood watchman. He saw a stranger (Trayvon did not live there) walking through the closed community. The watchman asked Trayvon if he lived there and maybe where he was going. Trayvon told him to go f*ck himself. Zimmerman got out of the car and told Trayvon to show him how someone fucks themselves. They got into a fight, Trayvon was getting the best of Zimmerman, and Zimm pulled out the gun and shot him.

Even in your speculative fantasy, Zimmerman is obviously at fault.

"He told me to go f*ck myself", is not a valid reason to confront someone physically. Also, losing a fight to and unarmed person half your size (a fight that you initiated), is not a valid reason to shoot someone to death.

lmao

Ah yes, that makes much more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

Attempting to ask someone who does not live in crime riddled neighborhood where they are going is a valid reason to approach someone.

It's also a valid reason to be told to go f*ck yourself. Being told to go f*ck yourself, however, is still not a valid reason to, "[get] out of the car and [tell] Trayvon to show him how someone fucks themselves."

[keiths31]

With a family like he had, no surprise if Martin had some serious issues.

Mother tries to trademark her dead son's name:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/ ... rks-769123

Sad. I can see her not wanting anyone else to make money off of her son. So if she trademarks it just so no one else can, then I am okay with that. But if she does it for profit...then that is not cool.

[Symmetry]

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

Why would you say that? I don't particularly find any element of this case "laughable", but perhaps you get your jollies from different sources than me. But I guess you have more info than me and can back uo your claim that he "wasn't so innocent after all", presumably, minus any kind of speculation.

[bedub1]

TLDR of codeblue1018's article:

Zimmerman was patrolling his neighborhood when he spotted a suspicious drugged out person. Zimmerman got out of his SUV, but lost sight of the suspect. As he walked back to his vehicle, Martin approached him from behind and asked him if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone. Martin said “well you do now,” and clocked him in the nose. As the older man fell to the ground, Martin jumped on him and repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk. Zimmerman called out for help as he was being pounded, and eventually managed to free his sidearm and shoot his assailant once, killing him instantly.

The New Black Panthers put out a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman's head.

Things read a little different than before:

White vigilante hunts down and murders black angel

[Phatscotty]

Interesting take on the possible gang aspect through Trayvon's eyes.
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-765534

Also, all of the related 911 conversations (30+ minutes)
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/GRAPHI ... index.html

Much has been said about the racial issues surrounding the death of 17 year old Black victim Trayvon Martin, but little is being said concerning the race of the shooter, George Zimmerman, who is Hispanic. Before everyone rushes to judgment this part of the issue should be addressed.

What was Martin’s mind-set that caused him to run away and then physically engage with Zimmerman after being cornered? Why would Zimmerman shoot him? How could this horrible tragedy have happened?

As the facts that are known about this case are closely examined, glimpses of the thought processes of both Zimmerman and Martin begin to emerge.

First, let us try to see things from George Zimmerman’s view by looking at the transcript of his phone call to the police that night. . (Note: Portions of this transcript have been removed to highlight key issues.)

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy...This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something...

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black...Now he's just staring at me. Yeah, now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

The paranoia in Zimmerman is tangible. But the above bits of transcript are important because they let us know that Zimmerman got a very close look at Martin. Close enough to know that he had “button on his shirt” and that he was a teenager. Martin also got a very close look at Zimmerman. Zimmerman said: “He’s just staring at me” and “He’s checking me out.” As Zimmerman could see that Martin was Black, it is likely that Martin could see that Zimmerman was Hispanic.

Trayvon Martin had every right to be in the neighborhood. He was visiting his Father who is a resident of that gated community. As a guest, Trayvon should have been given full courtesy and protection from George Zimmerman and the Neighborhood Watch program. But the fact is that while he belonged there he was still a guest. He wasn’t from Sanford. He was from Miami.

Trayvon Martin lived in Miami-Dade County and attended Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School. (The High School he attended is by race 41% Hispanic, 29% White non-Hispanic, 28% Black, and 0.1% Asian.) A simple search of the internet will reveal the Latin Syndicate’s largest and most violent gang is in Miami-Dade County where Trayvon lived. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2vRotzto3o) He must have known or heard about the Hispanic gangs operating in his area. The majority of students in his High School were Hispanic. Perhaps some belong to these gangs.

Knowing this, we can imagine things through Trayvon Martin’s eyes as he looks back at the Hispanic man checking him out. While Zimmerman was describing Martin to the police, Trayvon would also have been assessing Zimmerman: How is he dressed? Does he have any visible tattoos? Why is this Hispanic guy staring at me? Is he a gang member? Am I on his “turf”?”

We know what Martin was wearing that night because Zimmerman described him to the police in his phone call, but what was Zimmerman wearing? This is important to know. We can see from the police photo that Zimmerman looks Hispanic and has an ear ring, but what else did he have on? Does he have tattoos? Could he fit the profile?

Zimmerman: Okay. These a**holes they always get away...S**t he's running.

Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok

(Section of transcript removed here where dispatcher gets Zimmerman’s name and location where he can meet with officers when they arrive.)

Martin begins to run and Zimmerman gives chase. When the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following Martin he says: “Yeah.” When told by the dispatcher that “we don’t need you to do that” Zimmerman says: “OK” and appears to comply. What happens next in the conversation is the dispatcher gets directions and Zimmerman’s contact information, but mixed into this are two very important bits of information offered by Zimmerman:

Zimmerman: He ran... I don't know where this kid is...

If Zimmerman did continue to chase Martin while giving the dispatcher the contact information and directions it is not clear, but we do know that for a time he lost sight of Martin and that he did not know where he went. While Zimmerman was giving the contact information to the dispatcher it is likely that he kept walking to a place where he thought Martin would be.

A sad fact here is that Zimmerman calls Martin “This kid”. This becomes important as we postulate on the events that soon take place when Zimmerman finds and confronts Martin.

Did Trayvon Martin think Zimmerman was a Latin gang member? Is this why he ran?
This would help explain the conversation Trayvon was having on his cell phone at that moment with a girlfriend back in Miami. The girl has been reported to say Martin told her that “someone was following him and that he was trying to get away.” It is obvious that Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. She advised him to run, which he then did. Not long after she overheard a confrontation something like this:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the same questions are repeated with the voices escalating:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the girl heard what sounded like a shove and the phone went dead or the earpiece was knocked out of Martin’s ear. Zimmerman told the police a fight began where he feared for his life. Zimmerman said he screamed for help but nobody came.

From what we know from the statements of Martin and Zimmerman, we can postulate on what they may have been thinking in the moments before the fight began.

When Martin asked: “Why are you following me?
Zimmerman would be thinking: “You’re just a kid who is up to no good… I am the authority figure here…I’m not answerable to you! … You need to answer to me!” So he did not identify himself as the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch.
Instead Zimmerman shot back: “What are you doing here?”
This is exactly how a gang member would challenge an outsider in his neighborhood. It implies “This is our turf…you don’t belong here…you may die for being here.”

The same questions are repeated with more anger and volume. This only reinforces the false perceptions. What happens next? Perhaps Trayvon learned it is best not to show fear in this situation. In Hispanic Miami-Dade County it can take Machismo and respect to survive. He can’t back down. On the other hand, perhaps he tried to run away again. Zimmerman may have then tried to hold him until the police arrived. Perhaps Zimmerman hit or pushed Martin first. We do not know how the fight started, but there is little doubt as to what happened next: Trayvon, in self defense and in fear of his life, put up a much more valiant fight than what Zimmerman ever would have expected.

Zimmerman told police while they fought he screamed for help and nobody came. A voice can be heard crying for help on the 911 calls. Scientific analysis should eventually prove if the voice is Zimmerman’s or Martin’s. However it would not be surprising if it turns out to be Zimmerman who was the one crying for help. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head. He would not have expected “this kid” to fight for his life when he confronted him. After all he was much bigger. This was just a kid he thought he could intimidate, but he soon found himself overpowered and getting the tar beat out of him. He pulls his gun and shoots Martin.

Zimmerman may be found innocent because of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” self-defense laws. This may be the legality, but morally it was wrong for Zimmerman not to explain that he was the Neighborhood Watch Captain when Martin asked why he was being followed. George Zimmerman was the adult and should be held accountable for his actions.

Like it or not, the unspoken “elephant in the room” is the fact that Zimmerman is Hispanic, and Trayvon Martin was growing up in an area of Latin gang activity. Zimmerman may have profiled Martin as a black kid “up to no good”. But Martin may have thought Zimmerman fit the profile of a gang member. This could have contributed to his final minutes being spent in fear and in a fight for his life.

It would seem cruel to the victim to think that racial stereotyping could also have influenced Trayvon’s actions that night, but if we are to ever fully understand this tragedy, this side must eventually be investigated, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

[bedub1]

It's starting to make sense why no charges have been filed. It also makes sense why they didn't want to release any information to taint the investigation. I understand why they have released more information though given the tinder box that is the community. I wonder how easy it will be to find an impartial jury if charges ever are filed.

Here is the moral of the story: Don't be a paranoid jackass. Be nice and kind and polite and communicate extensively.

This line is huge:

As a guest, Trayvon should have been given full courtesy and protection from George Zimmerman and the Neighborhood Watch program.

Lack of communication is what caused this to go down the way it did.

Zimmerman needs magnets and a light on his car if he is driving around on patrol.

[thegreekdog]

So I guess it was self-defense? I'm not as familiar with criminal law anymore, but I thought that the defense needed to be in proportion to the potential physical harm.

[Night Strike]

A guy beating the crap out of you can still kill you even without having a traditional weapon of his own. Plus, he could have taken Zimmerman's gun if he had incapacitated him to that point. It's the same reason why US border agents are allowed to use deadly force if "kids" are throwing rocks at them: a rock could knock them out and the thrower could come up and take the gun and use it.

[ViperOverLord]

So I guess it was self-defense? I'm not as familiar with criminal law anymore, but I thought that the defense needed to be in proportion to the potential physical harm.

It doesn't and with good reason. The defender has the right to exceed the attacking force to fend off the attacker and protect his person. Arguably, that creates possibilities in which abuses can occur.

[comic boy]

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

Code you are doing exactly what you accuse the other side of doing , cherry picking information as you see fit , how on earth can we accept Zimmermans uncoroberated statements as facts ?
Perhaps he is telling the unvarnished truth or perhaps he and his lawyer are putting the best spin on the story that they can think of , we dont know .

[Evil Semp]

A guy beating the crap out of you can still kill you even without having a traditional weapon of his own. Plus, he could have taken Zimmerman's gun if he had incapacitated him to that point. It's the same reason why US border agents are allowed to use deadly force if "kids" are throwing rocks at them: a rock could knock them out and the thrower could come up and take the gun and use it.

The news tonight mentioned that Zimmerman thought Martin was going for his gun.

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

Code you are doing exactly what you accuse the other side of doing , cherry picking information as you see fit , how on earth can we accept Zimmermans uncoroberated statements as facts ?
Perhaps he is telling the unvarnished truth or perhaps he and his lawyer are putting the best spin on the story that they can think of , we dont know .

They aren't totally uncorroborated. On the same news cast as mentioned above a witness gave a description of Zimmerman being on the ground.

[thegreekdog]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

[Doc_Brown]

For what it's worth, the following is from the Florida Code:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

(emphasis added)

[Phatscotty]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Shootings/violence only make news when the race of the shooter is white. It's the only racist thing about this whole story.

This is the next strategy as I pointed out in the OP of the Sandra Fluke thread. "Next, there will be a gay issue, then a gun issue, then a racist issue, then some famous loved celebrity who went broke and doesn't have health insuranace will pass on and it will be because Obamacare wasn't passed soon enough, then an abortion issue, etc etc."

We can expect more manufactured news/politics all throughout the summer up until the election. The Loughner/Fluke strategy is now the Loughner/Fluke/Martin strategy.

Never let a crisis go to waste

[Phatscotty]

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

Code you are doing exactly what you accuse the other side of doing , cherry picking information as you see fit , how on earth can we accept Zimmermans uncoroberated statements as facts ?
Perhaps he is telling the unvarnished truth or perhaps he and his lawyer are putting the best spin on the story that they can think of , we dont know .

You mean the witnesses, don't you Comic? Code is going off what the witnesses saw, which was Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, and heard Zimmerman yelling for help, and saw Trayvon smashing Zimmermans head into the pavement repeatedly. That's why the police did not press charges on Zimmerman. They concluded it was a clear case of self defense, and backed up by multiple witnesses.



Still, there were over a dozen rallies today all over the country demanding the arrest, some even demanding Zimmerman be kidnapped.

No justice, no peace! and we don't care all the facts aren't in or that the media has clearly, undoubtedly, told us a lot of lies about the story! no justice, no peace! Media says jump...we say how high!

[codeblue1018]

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

Code you are doing exactly what you accuse the other side of doing , cherry picking information as you see fit , how on earth can we accept Zimmermans uncoroberated statements as facts ?
Perhaps he is telling the unvarnished truth or perhaps he and his lawyer are putting the best spin on the story that they can think of , we dont know .

Not true Comic. I speak to the facts that are released from witnesses, statements and the like.

I look at it like this if I had no facts. First and foremost; the police get to the scene, they investigate; they bring Zimmerman in for questioning; no arrest was made. A police report was generated and forwarded to the prosecutors office depicting the facts of the case; the prosecutors office reviews the case and deems this self defense based on Zimmermans accounts, witness statements, evidence etc. Are we to believe that the police, Zimmermans account, the unbiased witnesses, the evidence, I.e Zimmerans injuries to his head, nose, grass stains on the back of his shirt that something malicious happened to Martin? I dont cherry pick Comic; I strictly make decisions based on facts and evidence; not the words that others think they know. Im not taking Zimmermans side; I'm simply looking at this from facts and not coming to a rushed decision because others think they know what happened. I do not agree with the way Zimmerman handled this incident but what he originally did by continuing to follow Martin wasn't against the law despite the fact that the police told him to stop following Martin. You are correct on one thing Comic; we will never know 100% as to what/how this all happened verbatim, however, I do believe in the American Judicial System to handles situations like this at top level. Racists such as Sharpton and Jackson surely help the judicial process run smoothly.