Evolution

[GreecePwns]

No, that is "theist," as in the opposite of "atheist." "Deism" is this.

Deism is a religious philosophy which holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of a creator. According to deists, God never intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles, tending instead to assert that a god (or "the Supreme Architect") does not alter the universe by intervening in it."

Maybe this is why you are not understanding my arguments?

[crispybits]

That's stretching the definition of the word "miracle" pretty thin. A hurricane passing over some swampland could suck up a load of frogs or toads and chuck them all high into the sky and away from the centre and when they fall, in amongst the band of rain that generally hurricanes are surrounded by, we might have a rain of frogs. There is no need for any sort of divine intervention to cause it, it can be fully explained by natural laws.

If you define miracle as "anything that is rare enough" then there are millions of miracles every single day. Most of them are mind-numbingly mundane, but they happen nonetheless.

Most people would define miracle as something close to "an act of the divine that either suspends or disregards the laws of nature". By that deifinition the rain of frogs is not a miracle, unless that rain of frogs happens without any natural phenomena that could otherwise explain it, and is caused by a divine agent.

But in the spirit of not putting words into your mouth, how would you define a "miracle"?

[jimboston]

Just starting this thread in case anyone who doesn't "believe" in evolution shows up. I want to destroy someone! Please show up!?

11 pages and no "destruction".

This is awesome.

Start a thread with no content... let people bash eachother... sit back and watch.

[PLAYER57832]

That's stretching the definition of the word "miracle" pretty thin.

Really?

A hurricane passing over some swampland could suck up a load of frogs or toads and chuck them all high into the sky and away from the centre and when they fall, in amongst the band of rain that generally hurricanes are surrounded by, we might have a rain of frogs. There is no need for any sort of divine intervention to cause it, it can be fully explained by natural laws.

Actually not a hurricane , but something in that neighborhood. The divine intervention part would be in the exact timing.

If you define miracle as "anything that is rare enough" then there are millions of miracles every single day. Most of them are mind-numbingly mundane, but they happen nonetheless.

Yes, they do, in a sense. Every birth of a baby is a kind of miracle... etc. However, this bit about anything is rare enough is not it. The real point is the divine prediction and timing, not rarity per se.

That said, let me be clear that I am NOT referring to the Roman Catholic Church's definition of a miracle.. but they have yet another pretty narrow definition that also counters yours.

Most people would define miracle as something close to "an act of the divine that either suspends or disregards the laws of nature"

Most people also think that if they pray and God doesn't give them what they want, that means the prayer went unanswered. Peple want the easy answers. Does not mean they are correct.

By that deifinition the rain of frogs is not a miracle, unless that rain of frogs happens without any natural phenomena that could otherwise explain it, and is caused by a divine agent.

As I have said plenty of times, that definition is just wrong. It is something that atheists and some religious individuals try to put forward, not what the Bible defines as a miracle.

But in the spirit of not putting words into your mouth, how would you define a "miracle"?

Its one of those things that is hard to define, but "you know it when you see it".

Seriously, I think that the Earth exists at all is a miracle.

[crispybits]

So whether we classify something as a miracle or not is down to personal perception and interpretation? Seriously I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. What is the point of calling anything a miracle unless that something could only have happened through divine intervention? Surely anything that can have entirely natural causes is just a natural event the same as the countless natural events that happen every day in every part of the universe? Or are all natural events which meet certain (as yet unestablished in this debate) criteria to be classified as miracles?

[PLAYER57832]

So whether we classify something as a miracle or not is down to personal perception and interpretation?

If you are a Roman Catholic, then it depends on what the Pope says (well.. the body, forget its name, that investigates miracles anyway).

Else, in a way, yes.

Seriously I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. What is the point of calling anything a miracle unless that something could only have happened through divine intervention? Surely anything that can have entirely natural causes is just a natural event the same as the countless natural events that happen every day in every part of the universe? Or are all natural events which meet certain (as yet unestablished in this debate) criteria to be classified as miracles?

If God created the universe and all that is in it, including the processes, then why is it necessary that God go outside that for something to be declared a miracle? This whole idea of what a miracle "must" be is either defined by individual faiths and churches OR is defined by those outside the church.

You may set up the criteria you need to see what you consider "proof of God", but that is no more a fundamental truth than any other belief.

[crispybits]

If God influences things by building them into the universe as natural events, then where is the relevance of calling anything a miracle? Surely then everything becomes a miracle, every grain of sand, every tree, every fish, every sun or moon - they're all miracles. Or at best they are all things that could be miracles if we only understood the mind of God and which he intervened in directly.

And if that is so, then aren't you just nullifying the meaning of the word miracle as anything special or divine to something mundane and natural. If there is no need for the divine element to explain something then why claim it?

[PLAYER57832]

No, that is "theist," as in the opposite of "atheist." "Deism" is this.

Deism is a religious philosophy which holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of a creator. According to deists, God never intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles, tending instead to assert that a god (or "the Supreme Architect") does not alter the universe by intervening in it."

Maybe this is why you are not understanding my arguments?

More, I don't see why you consider this significant or relevant.

[PLAYER57832]

If God influences things by building them into the universe as natural events, then where is the relevance of calling anything a miracle? Surely then everything becomes a miracle, every grain of sand, every tree, every fish, every sun or moon - they're all miracles. Or at best they are all things that could be miracles if we only understood the mind of God and which he intervened in directly.

Ah, but that is just the crux. For one thing, there is the whole matter of timing. That God uses what we now consider a natural process to accomplish something is irrelevant.

And if that is so, then aren't you just nullifying the meaning of the word miracle as anything special or divine to something mundane and natural. If there is no need for the divine element to explain something then why claim it?

Ah, so to you, if its explained, its not remarkable? I guess you have a pretty boring life, then.

Seriously, you have it backwards. People don't invent God to explain things. To a believer, things happening at specific points was a way that God showed himself to people.

[GreecePwns]

You said deism is something that doesn't exist, which is clearly not true. Furthermore, it's exactly what you're arguing in favor of when you say things like "God doesn't have to intervene or break natural laws because his creation wouldn't require intervention."

And then you say things like "I believe God manipulate things in a subtle way," and its the opposite of what you say above. "Manipulating things in a subtle way" requires intervention.

This is clearly a contradiction.

Re: miracles, just because events have a really low likelihood of happening does not make them a product of God intervening. Especially if we can explain exactly how and why it happened. Explanations don't take the shock factor out of it, but they do remove supernatural causes from being possible. Since it happen through nature. Which is not super-nature.

You can say that it "might" be God intervening until a scientific explanation is found (again, if you believe God intervenes in the universe), but as soon as it is found, you can rule that out. And scientific discover has ruled that out for many things you used as examples of "miracles."

[crispybits]

OK then, how do we discern divine timing from natural timing, beyond "we just know"

And if it is "we just know" then that is fine as a purely religious belief, and we can end this line of discussion because despite disagreeing on the core issues we've reached agreement on this small sub-topic. Spotting miracles is the reserve of the believer, and anybody who lacks this state of faith will never understand or experience a miracle.

But the thing is weren't miracles (or divine intervention or however it came in, I'm about 5 minutes from falling asleep and I really am unable to track back that far in this thread right now), used as some sort of justification for God's existence? And if miracles are a matter of faith then aren't we going into circular reasoning? (God performs miracles, miracles prove God)

I may well have misunderstood where the topic came into the debate there, so willing (as always) to stand corrected.

[Haggis_McMutton]

I have a somewhat unrelated question for you Player.

I believe you've stated that personal evidence matters in the search for god, that just because you can't explain it satisfactorily to others it doesn't discount the evidence, correct?
I agree with this premise (though I would add that in such circumstances you always have to be very aware of your own falibility and potential to distort what you were perceiving).

Anyway, my question is, if you had experienced no such personal evidence, if you had to judge just based on the collective evidence of science and so on, would you still be a theist?

[jonesthecurl]

Or,what makes the faith induced by one individual's personal revelation more valid than another's?
Or more relevant than the lack of any faith of a person who has had no personal revelation?

[PLAYER57832]

OK then, how do we discern divine timing from natural timing, beyond "we just know"

Nope, Moses predicted that the plagues would occur at specific times.... etc.

The timing is in the prediction or in it answering a specific request (usually prayer, but not always).

As to "who determines", I already said that various churches and individuals each have their own standards. I am not going to debate those individual standards. I stated that your assertion of what a miracle "must be" is just wrong. I have already shown why that is true.

[GreecePwns]

How do we know Moses predicted that plagues would occur at specific times? Is there documentation of this outside of the bible? Perhaps historical sources?

Do you happen to believe in Occam's razor?

[PLAYER57832]

I have a somewhat unrelated question for you Player.

I believe you've stated that personal evidence matters in the search for god, that just because you can't explain it satisfactorily to others it doesn't discount the evidence, correct?
I agree with this premise (though I would add that in such circumstances you always have to be very aware of your own falibility and potential to distort what you were perceiving).

Agreed.

Anyway, my question is, if you had experienced no such personal evidence, if you had to judge just based on the collective evidence of science and so on, would you still be a theist?

Hard to say how I personally would think. Impossible, really, because my beliefs are very much a part of who I am, including the fact that I am a published scientist... though for reasons I am not going to go into (that have absolutely nothing to do with poor quality of work, though I cannot prove that, of course, and am not going to try), I am no longer working in the field.

BUT.. the bottom line answer is that I know I cannot convince other people based on scientific facts or such. I will, in some contexts, debate the issues, but I don't believe you have ever heard me say anyone is dumb for not believing in God, or anything like that. Atheists here have absolutely made similar accusations to me and to others of faith. (note.. I have attacked a couple of people who claim to be representing my faith, becuase I don't feel they represent my beliefs in a good way. That is a different matter).

Or, to put it another way, how I, personally would think is irrelevant. I don't want other people telling me that I have to subscribe to their beliefs, so I had better not tell other people they have to believe as I do. Note that this does NOT apply to understanding of facts, though.

[PLAYER57832]

How do we know Moses predicted that plagues would occur at specific times? Is there documentation of this outside of the bible? Perhaps historical sources?

Whether there is documentation outside the Bible or not is irrelevant to a Jew or Christian. We believe the Bible. My explanation was not that the miracle proves the Bible true, but to explain why it is considered a miracle in the Bible.

[GreecePwns]

How do we know Moses predicted that plagues would occur at specific times? Is there documentation of this outside of the bible? Perhaps historical sources?

Whether there is documentation outside the Bible or not is irrelevant to a Jew or Christian. We believe the Bible. My explanation was not that the miracle proves the Bible true, but to explain why it is considered a miracle in the Bible.

You don't question the validity of this example? Okay, let's assume it did happen.

What was God's involvement in Moses' predictions (i.e. did God tell him it was going to happen? did God take control of Moses' mouth and make him say the words? etc.) What was God's involvement in the plagues and their timing (i.e. did God personally command the disease to spread and it did so?)

[BigBallinStalin]

Did you guys get a clear definition of "miracle" from PLAYER yet?

[PLAYER57832]

How do we know Moses predicted that plagues would occur at specific times? Is there documentation of this outside of the bible? Perhaps historical sources?

Whether there is documentation outside the Bible or not is irrelevant to a Jew or Christian. We believe the Bible. My explanation was not that the miracle proves the Bible true, but to explain why it is considered a miracle in the Bible.

You don't question the validity of this example? Okay, let's assume it did happen.

What was God's involvement in Moses' predictions (i.e. did God tell him it was going to happen? did God take control of Moses' mouth and make him say the words? etc.) What was God's involvement in the plagues and their timing (i.e. did God personally command the disease to spread and it did so?)

Well, read Exodus. It is explained pretty well there.
Basically, you seem to keep trying to turn this into a debate about the veracity of religion and the Bible. We already have enough threads on that. And, I will never say I can prove my religion is true. I say I believe it, and no one can prove me wrong.

[warmonger1981]

what are the odds for life to be on a planet?? then lets say what are the odds of a life form spawning?? then lets say what are the odds of that life form transforming into a highly complex animal? then lets say what are the odds of multiple if not millions of completely different animals and insects coming to be?? seems to be too many odds for all this to just happen by chance. only a God could make such a complex system of animals with the power to think in somewhat of a logical manner. chew on that for a while..

[BigBallinStalin]

Those odds are unknown; some are probably unknowable.


Unknown != God
And the unknowable doesn't preclude nor prove the existence of God Deistic Thing

[Gillipig]

I've been contemplating making a mega post here and doing away with all the "arguments" against evolution and showing why evolution is as hard to rationally question as gravity. It is really quite easy. Although very time consuming. If I do it would be in the spirit of one of my great rolemodels Richard Dawkins. Who's most recent book about evolution I'm reading right now.
The arguments against evolution are so futile and self destroying that it feels like beating a dead horse. Unfortunately a lot of people don't know/understand this. For example 40% of americans believe the earth is less than 10 000 years old.
On one side I feel compelled to enlighten these stupid people. On the other side I feel something like the following:
If humans are THAT stupid, then f*ck 'em! Let them destroy their planet and wander around their short time on earth in ignorance expecting to reach heaven for their stupidity when they die.

I don't know which side to listen to. Both sides have compelling arguments.

[puppydog85]

Or you could just continue to make posts every four pages or so saying how stupid people are. That would be very productive and would not state the obvious.

[crispybits]

what are the odds for life to be on a planet?? then lets say what are the odds of a life form spawning?? then lets say what are the odds of that life form transforming into a highly complex animal? then lets say what are the odds of multiple if not millions of completely different animals and insects coming to be?? seems to be too many odds for all this to just happen by chance. only a God could make such a complex system of animals with the power to think in somewhat of a logical manner. chew on that for a while..

Firstly, the odds of a life form spawning are 0. As are the odds of a life form transforming into a highly complex animal. Neither of those has ever been claimed by evolutionary theories.

But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, lets imagine we can transport ourselves back in time to when the very first life forms, no more than complex protein chains themselves, started to form. We're standing in front of a pool of primordial soup matter, complex organic molecules all mixed up in some water just doing chemistry, no biology exists. Also we have a scanner that lets us see exactly what is happening in there on a molecular level.

We might see just the right complex hydrocarbons reacting with just the right other hydrocarbons in just the right way to form that first protein, and we might say "wow that's amazing and so hugely unlikely, it must be part of some sort of design or purpose to create life." At this point I would tell you to raise your head, and look beyond the boundaries of this pool. To see the thousands or millions of other pools, lakes and oceans full of primordial matter. The billions upon billions upon trillions of different hydrocarbon molecules all bashing into each other, all reacting. And the vast majority of those reactions would form proteins that just don't work, they don't do the right things to form life forms out of them. But if you're looking at trillions of reactions, then the universe, totally randomly, can get 99.9999999% of those reactions "wrong", because the tiny fraction it gets "right" is enough to form life.

And beyond that lets get a telescope out and look at the billions of other planets in the universe, and see that of them a certain small percentage also have the right conditions and make-up for these pools to form, and on each of them trillions of reactions happen. So now we're not just looking at trillions, we're looking at trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of chances.

What's the chance of viable life that can lead to intelligent life forming somewhere in the universe? Pretty much 1. And it doesn't have to be by some grand design, it just has to be because the universe can get it wrong trillions upon trillions of times, but it only has to randomly get it right once and we end up here.