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[Night Strike]

That 0 speaks mightily for itself.

Yep, it does. It means the Republicans may have actually stood by their principles rather than expand the government.

Yes, but the filibuster (by Republicans) made it so that we needed to get 60 votes. That made this Joe Lieberman's bill. Who, as we all know, is not a Democrat. Regardless, even if all Republicans had just voted "no" but allowed debate to open and allowed the grown-ups to talk about it on the floor, it would be a better bill.

You have it backwards. Debate was started (the Democrats all voted for that), but it took all the backroom deals among Democrats to close the debate, which is where the filibuster was nearly effective. Another ignorant opinion that has to be answered: the Republicans DID try to make a better bill, but the Democrats shot down their amendments.

[PLAYER57832]

That 0 speaks mightily for itself.

Yep, it does. It means the Republicans may have actually stood by their principles rather than expand the government.

I know. My 3 year old "stands on principle" fairly often, particularly when he is tired or hungry.

[PLAYER57832]

Another ignorant opinion that has to be answered: the Republicans DID try to make a better bill, but the Democrats shot down their amendments.

No, the Republicans offered a couple of so-called "amendments" that were never even close to being OK by anyone, and those only at the last minute and only so folks like you could claim "well, they tried"..

Problem is, as I said before, what the Democrats put forward was pretty similar to earlier REPUBLICAN proposals. Except, just because it was Democrats doing it this time, it had to be canned.

AND the Republican party has moved so far to the right, and the Democrats to a point also, that you have Arlan Spector even changing parties. Now, I voted for and will vote for the man. He HAS always stood by principal, INCLUDING a willingness to compromise when that is what it takes to get things DONE!

[Night Strike]

AND the Republican party has moved so far to the right, and the Democrats to a point also, that you have Arlan Spector even changing parties. Now, I voted for and will vote for the man. He HAS always stood by principal, INCLUDING a willingness to compromise when that is what it takes to get things DONE!

Bringing this up shows you have no idea about his obvious intentions. 1) He was never an actual conservative: just a liberal masquerading as a Republican. 2) He jumped parties to save HIMSELF.....it had absolutely nothing to do with values. 3) His actions, much like Olympia Snow's, tend to be compromises simply because they had different party letters after their names, not because they actually had a disagreement in position.

[Juan_Bottom]

Yep, it does. It means the Republicans may have actually stood by their principles rather than expand the government.

The Republicans don't have principles.

Republican starting with Nixon have expanded government control of the nation and citizens FAR greater than the Dems. Interestingly though, the Dems often use the newly expanded powers that the Republican's invented. So it depends on definition I suppose. Is the government having the right to control everything considered a bloated government? Or only government bureaucracy?

[Snorri1234]

And the Republicans wouldn't have voted for that one either.

Yup.

[spurgistan]

That 0 speaks mightily for itself.

Yep, it does. It means the Republicans may have actually stood by their principles rather than expand the government.

I know. My 3 year old "stands on principle" fairly often, particularly when he is tired or hungry.

BOOM.

[spurgistan]

Yep, it does. It means the Republicans may have actually stood by their principles rather than expand the government.

The Republicans don't have principles.

Republican starting with Nixon have expanded government control of the nation and citizens FAR greater than the Dems. Interestingly though, the Dems often use the newly expanded powers that the Republican's invented. So it depends on definition I suppose. Is the government having the right to control everything considered a bloated government? Or only government bureaucracy?

No, that's completely wrong. The Republicans have super-strong principles. They dictate that whatever a Democrat says is wrong. Inherently. Even when they say things super-correct Republicans say, the simple act of it coming from a Democrat makes it wrong.

[john9blue]

Sorry to break up the left-wing orgy in here, but I object to your assumptions about bills that don't even exist.

[Snorri1234]

Sorry to break up the left-wing orgy in here, but I object to your assumptions about bills that don't even exist.

yeah....this would be a good post if it weren't for all the republicans who came out and said "lol dudes we're going to vote against every bill you propose no matter what".


Seriously. This is fact, they don't give a f*ck about maybe supporting bills that might be good. They voted against everything democrats conceded upon.

[john9blue]

Link please? There are Republicans who openly admit to opposing the Democrats because of party differences? I mean, some of them do it anyway, but I'd be surprised if they actually admitted it in public.

[stahrgazer]

Link please? There are Republicans who openly admit to opposing the Democrats because of party differences? I mean, some of them do it anyway, but I'd be surprised if they actually admitted it in public.

Apparently you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh

[thegreekdog]

Sorry to break up the left-wing orgy in here, but I object to your assumptions about bills that don't even exist.

yeah....this would be a good post if it weren't for all the republicans who came out and said "lol dudes we're going to vote against every bill you propose no matter what".


Seriously. This is fact, they don't give a f*ck about maybe supporting bills that might be good. They voted against everything democrats conceded upon.

Unlike Democrats, who only vote on bills that might be good. Because Democrats are different than Republicans like that. [insert more sarcasm].

[PopeBenXVI]

Both parties are very guilty of expanding Government. I suspect many Republicans privately supported the Heath care takeover Bill because they are Statists too. Their are also way more far Left Democrats than their are far Right Republicans. They are for the most part in bed together and they all just want more money in the Government to dole out to their supporters for helping them get elected.

The Healthcare takeover is Bull and by design will destroy the industry and take 15% or so of a free market economy and put in into the hands of Government that has proven they can do nothing efficiently. For a fraction of the money spent in the stimulus pork bill we could have covered every uninsured person. It is not about covering everyone to most in Government it's about controling the money and therefore the people in order to ensure their re-elections and power.

I put very little faith in the Republican party but at this time they are unfortunately the only thing partially stopping other destructive bills. We are supposed to be a Representative Republic and the Democrats were far from representing the majority of Americans who were voicing opposition to the Bill.

Shame on them all

[PLAYER57832]

AND the Republican party has moved so far to the right, and the Democrats to a point also, that you have Arlan Spector even changing parties. Now, I voted for and will vote for the man. He HAS always stood by principal, INCLUDING a willingness to compromise when that is what it takes to get things DONE!

Bringing this up shows you have no idea about his obvious intentions. 1) He was never an actual conservative: just a liberal masquerading as a Republican. 2) He jumped parties to save HIMSELF.....it had absolutely nothing to do with values. 3) His actions, much like Olympia Snow's, tend to be compromises simply because they had different party letters after their names, not because they actually had a disagreement in position.

Brining this up means that I have a bit longer memory than yours.

Spector has not changed, the Republican Party has changed until it is so far to the right on many fronts its frankly bordering authoritarianism. I like to make my own decisions, thank you. And I DO NOT need anyone else telling me how to live my life. If it doesn't meet with you approval.. too bad, its MY life, not yours!

As for payments, if you are going to pretend that anything the Republicans have put forward recently is really about saving us money or cutting long-term taxes, then you are the one who needs to look quite a bit more deeply about intentions.

The truth is that the Democractic party, which has also slid to the right, though nowhere near as much as the Republicans, is much more like the old Republican party than the Republicans are now.

[Snorri1234]

Sorry to break up the left-wing orgy in here, but I object to your assumptions about bills that don't even exist.

yeah....this would be a good post if it weren't for all the republicans who came out and said "lol dudes we're going to vote against every bill you propose no matter what".


Seriously. This is fact, they don't give a f*ck about maybe supporting bills that might be good. They voted against everything democrats conceded upon.

Unlike Democrats, who only vote on bills that might be good. Because Democrats are different than Republicans like that. [insert more sarcasm].

They're not as bullshit partisan as republicans. That doesn't mean they don't do shitty stuff, but at least it's not shitty stuff they do based on what their party is.

[PopeBenXVI]

Brining this up means that I have a bit longer memory than yours.

Spector has not changed, the Republican Party has changed until it is so far to the right on many fronts its frankly bordering authoritarianism. I like to make my own decisions, thank you. And I DO NOT need anyone else telling me how to live my life. If it doesn't meet with you approval.. too bad, its MY life, not yours!

As for payments, if you are going to pretend that anything the Republicans have put forward recently is really about saving us money or cutting long-term taxes, then you are the one who needs to look quite a bit more deeply about intentions.

The truth is that the Democractic party, which has also slid to the right, though nowhere near as much as the Republicans, is much more like the old Republican party than the Republicans are now.

What planet are you from Player? They are BOTH Authoritarian and the only difference is which regime is currently in power. The way they blatantly ignored the majority of Americans opposing the Health care debacle? You don't think that flys in the face of a Representative Republic by means of Authoritarian Democratic majority? Too many people place all their lives, hopes and dreams in one man or party. The 2 worst presidents our country has ever seen have been Bush2 and Obama. What makes me upset is how Liberals complain about the patriot act and how parts of it could spy on Americans (rightfully so) but have no problem with the current administration pushing to track people via their cell phone without a warrant at any time. Couple that with the Gov going after private emails against google, yahoo etc. Where is the ACLU and other left wing groups who say they are for our rights? People need to drop the Democrat Opiate and join the tea party while helping to prevent either party from assuming control of the only true grass roots American movement.

Neither party as a whole has our best interests in mind anymore and they all need to go...... and fast.

[PLAYER57832]

Brining this up means that I have a bit longer memory than yours.

Spector has not changed, the Republican Party has changed until it is so far to the right on many fronts its frankly bordering authoritarianism. I like to make my own decisions, thank you. And I DO NOT need anyone else telling me how to live my life. If it doesn't meet with you approval.. too bad, its MY life, not yours!

As for payments, if you are going to pretend that anything the Republicans have put forward recently is really about saving us money or cutting long-term taxes, then you are the one who needs to look quite a bit more deeply about intentions.

The truth is that the Democractic party, which has also slid to the right, though nowhere near as much as the Republicans, is much more like the old Republican party than the Republicans are now.

What planet are you from Player? They are BOTH Authoritarian and the only difference is which regime is currently in power. The way they blatantly ignored the majority of Americans opposing the Health care debacle? You don't think that flys in the face of a Representative Republic by means of Authoritarian Democratic majority? Too many people place all their lives, hopes and dreams in one man or party. The 2 worst presidents our country has ever seen have been Bush2 and Obama. What makes me upset is how Liberals complain about the patriot act and how parts of it could spy on Americans (rightfully so) but have no problem with the current administration pushing to track people via their cell phone without a warrant at any time. Couple that with the Gov going after private emails against google, yahoo etc. Where is the ACLU and other left wing groups who say they are for our rights? People need to drop the Democrat Opiate and join the tea party while helping to prevent either party from assuming control of the only true grass roots American movement.

Neither party as a whole has our best interests in mind anymore and they all need to go...... and fast.

OH please. Read the whole comment or thread. I never said I thought the Democratic party was some sort of ideal party. They are currently better than the Republicans, but that's about it. The Republican party, however, is so far to the right currently, it IS reaching totalitarianism. You are perfectly happy with that, as you have shown before, because you believe you have the right to dictate that everyone else lives by your religious beliefs. I actually agree with many (not all) of those beliefs, but I don't expect the rest of the world to comply.

Individuals within the Democratic party have also decided to go to the far right, but they operate outside the party when they do.

As for health care, the REAL truth is that a lot of people were opposed to it because it did TOO LITTLE, not too much. And, though you are quick to point to the parts of polls that showed people were "against the bill", you consistantly and conveniently ignored polls that talked of actual details. Strange thing is when you asked people about things that were actually in the bill, they were not, in fact, so opposed.

As for Obama, so far, he is better than Bush AND I find it a little too "convenient" that he gets criticized for both doing the things that we want AND for not doing enough when you don't want. The guy is not perfect, but the virulance of the right wing attacks far, far surpasses ANYTHING put forward by moderates and liberals against Bush. The FAR left certainly put forward that sort of rhetoric, but not the mainstream.

I have watched our country go from one where people were allowed to disagree, where people knew that they were unlikley to get ALL they want, but were willing to compromise to get what was really important, to a country full of people who think that if everything isn't exactly how they want, its perfectly reasonable to stomp off and sabotage any effort into failure. THAT is what this so-called "debate" over health care was about. and, sadly, we will ALL pay, but not because, as you claim the Democrats ram-roaded, rather because they buckled a bit too much in an attempt to appease the many bullies.

[Woodruff]

As for Obama, so far, he is better than Bush

In which ways has he been particularly different than Bush? He's absolutely a better public speaker and I believe he's been a better diplomat for our overseas contacts...but as for domestics...what am I missing in thinking there hasn't been much difference?

[PLAYER57832]

As for Obama, so far, he is better than Bush

In which ways has he been particularly different than Bush? He's absolutely a better public speaker and I believe he's been a better diplomat for our overseas contacts...but as for domestics...what am I missing in thinking there hasn't been much difference?

He did push for Healthcare reform. He did move to close Guantanamo (apparently). Beyond that.. not much.

[Woodruff]

As for Obama, so far, he is better than Bush

In which ways has he been particularly different than Bush? He's absolutely a better public speaker and I believe he's been a better diplomat for our overseas contacts...but as for domestics...what am I missing in thinking there hasn't been much difference?

He did push for Healthcare reform. He did move to close Guantanamo (apparently). Beyond that.. not much.

True on the Healthcare reform. I bypassed that (when I shouldn't have) because it was obvious...my bad on that. As to Guantanamo...I'm not convinced on his efforts, quite honestly.

[PLAYER57832]

As for Obama, so far, he is better than Bush

In which ways has he been particularly different than Bush? He's absolutely a better public speaker and I believe he's been a better diplomat for our overseas contacts...but as for domestics...what am I missing in thinking there hasn't been much difference?

He did push for Healthcare reform. He did move to close Guantanamo (apparently). Beyond that.. not much.

True on the Healthcare reform. I bypassed that (when I shouldn't have) because it was obvious...my bad on that. As to Guantanamo...I'm not convinced on his efforts, quite honestly.

Well, I did say "apparently". It seemed good at first, but so far nothing much has happened. Supposedly, there is some stone-walling from Congress, but I am not entirely convinced, either.

I still have some hope on the energy front. I was dissapointed by his support for more drilling, but he does seem to be making more real effort in alternative energy than anyone else. Still too little, though.

He has flat out said that immigration reform will have to wait, which is understandable after the health care battle, (it would lose), but we'll see after Nov.

[PopeBenXVI]

OH please. Read the whole comment or thread. I never said I thought the Democratic party was some sort of ideal party. They are currently better than the Republicans, but that's about it. The Republican party, however, is so far to the right currently, it IS reaching totalitarianism. You are perfectly happy with that, as you have shown before, because you believe you have the right to dictate that everyone else lives by your religious beliefs. I actually agree with many (not all) of those beliefs, but I don't expect the rest of the world to comply.

Individuals within the Democratic party have also decided to go to the far right, but they operate outside the party when they do.

As for health care, the REAL truth is that a lot of people were opposed to it because it did TOO LITTLE, not too much. And, though you are quick to point to the parts of polls that showed people were "against the bill", you consistantly and conveniently ignored polls that talked of actual details. Strange thing is when you asked people about things that were actually in the bill, they were not, in fact, so opposed.

As for Obama, so far, he is better than Bush AND I find it a little too "convenient" that he gets criticized for both doing the things that we want AND for not doing enough when you don't want. The guy is not perfect, but the virulance of the right wing attacks far, far surpasses ANYTHING put forward by moderates and liberals against Bush. The FAR left certainly put forward that sort of rhetoric, but not the mainstream.

I have watched our country go from one where people were allowed to disagree, where people knew that they were unlikley to get ALL they want, but were willing to compromise to get what was really important, to a country full of people who think that if everything isn't exactly how they want, its perfectly reasonable to stomp off and sabotage any effort into failure. THAT is what this so-called "debate" over health care was about. and, sadly, we will ALL pay, but not because, as you claim the Democrats ram-roaded, rather because they buckled a bit too much in an attempt to appease the many bullies.

Come on now player, I know you are a liberal but you know you are stretching the truth here. You have shown in the past that you do think the Democrat party is here to save us. People opposed health care because Yes, it did not do enough to fix things..... ANYTHING to be exact AND because they were too busy filling it with crap no one wanted and would screw everyone over intentionally for money and power. It should have been stopped because it was not the right bill and that would have taken real leadership.

By the way that reminds me that you were one of those rambling on about how Obama would not raise anyones taxes who made less than $250,000 and now your champion has signed us all onto another entitlement program known as the Health care TAX. Yes, it will TAX people who make less than $250,000 and we can add that to the tax increases we will see with the Bush tax cuts expiring and effecting middle class Americans along with the "wealthy" and nothing is done about it. It will be great to have another tax increase while still likely in a recession. Thanks for believing and spreading the lie.

Your actually going to say that Obama is attacked more than Bush was? Thats rich, the last 2 years he was president was constant Bush bashing by the media and all your lefty friends and now your crying because the new loser whome you like is failing the country beyond anyones wildest expectations and you can't take it that no one likes him anymore and you were fawning over him in 08 to everyone here. Newsflash: Most of America did not vote for this Obama. They voted for the Lie Obama told everyone and the truth about him most of the mainstream media covered.

I suppose you still think he is against lobbyists and wants to change Washington like he told you in the campaign too huh? Judge the man by the company he keeps.

[Phatscotty]

What if everyone voted third party?

If you are not a third party believer, then the only thing we can do is pick better candidates in primaries. People usually never turn out to those...

[PopeBenXVI]

What if everyone voted third party?

If you are not a third party believer, then the only thing we can do is pick better candidates in primaries. People usually never turn out to those...

I agree PH, big turnouts in the primaries for TRUE fiscally conservative candidates is more key than ever. Obviously even people like John9 show where this country is leaning with this President. He said he was for gay marriage but a Tea Partier. I would argue most people in favor of that defiantly would not align themselves with the Tea Party movement but it just goes to show many of them realize their are bigger fish to fry here or our country is gone. As anti gay marriage as I am I can say I am likely to put that issue on the back burner for true fiscal conservatives.

People like player talk about how they don't want Government telling them what to do and running their lives but they never oppose the fact that Obama is imposing massive federal tax money to pay for peoples abortion and FORCING us to pay for it via the Heath care TAX and other means already. I am guessing because she does not see this as infringement upon 150 million pro life American's "choice" to support or not support abortion. She just agrees with the regime and talks social justice instead of equal justice which is what the constitution actually is.

We can not spend our way out of this and need to stop the rest of the stimulus money. With a 14 Trillion GDP their is no excuse for us not to meet a balanced budget every year for the last 20 years other than greed and mismanagement. Put in charge of our budget members of a family who make $2000 a month or less and they will know how to cut out the pork. When we go belly up like Greece no one will be there or even able to bail us out. We will have to give away land or something and our sovereignty will be threatened with what we owe. I don't even know what we would do or what would happen which is the scary part.