Logic dictates that there is a God!

[jay_a2j]

So you don't think they hang out with Jesus then?

Didn't say that. I try and keep my eyes on the one who preforms miracles rather than those who are the vessels of which the miracles are preformed.

[2dimes]

But wouldn't you like to go see it for your self?

I know I would.

[vtmarik]

To backtrack a little, I found this article about a dolphin that was recently captured near Japan that has vestigal legs:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227572,00.html

If they're discussing vestigals on Fox News, it must be very true.

[jay_a2j]

But wouldn't you like to go see it for your self?

I know I would.

"Thomas, you have believed because you have seen, blessed is he who believes without seeing"


I'll take the testimony at face value. Sure it would be cool to fellowship with those two men.... but its not a high priority.

[2dimes]

Sure it would be cool to fellowship with those two men.... but its not a high priority.

That's pretty much where I was going with the question. I was figuring hanging out with people that are involved in limb regeneration would be pretty interesting.

[OnlyAmbrose]

But wouldn't you like to go see it for your self?

I know I would.

"Thomas, you have believed because you have seen, blessed is he who believes without seeing"


I'll take the testimony at face value. Sure it would be cool to fellowship with those two men.... but its not a high priority.

Completely different circumstances thought Jay. Jesus HIMSELF had told the disciples that he would die and rise again. Thomas just didn't believe him. We now get the good news from the Bible which has been passed down from generation to generation.

In the cases of these two missionaries, you can't have any idea. Joseph Smith "testified" that God instructed him to purify Christianity, and the Mormon Church was founded. You don't believe THAT testimony do you?

I could testify that I chopped my own arm off with a hacksaw and God put it back on. Just because I testify it, would you believe it? Sure, God COULD do such a thing, but that doesn't mean he DID. And someone's testimony doesnt necessarily make it true.

[OnlyAmbrose]

As a side note to all atheists present-

The Bible does NOT teach blind faith. Indeed, Jesus warns the disciples against false prophets and false signs, and instructs them to be wary of where they place their faith.

[Stopper]

OnlyAmbrose said:
Completely different circumstances thought Jay. Jesus HIMSELF had told the disciples that he would die and rise again. Thomas just didn't believe him. We now get the good news from the Bible which has been passed down from generation to generation.

In the cases of these two missionaries, you can't have any idea. Joseph Smith "testified" that God instructed him to purify Christianity, and the Mormon Church was founded. You don't believe THAT testimony do you?

I could testify that I chopped my own arm off with a hacksaw and God put it back on. Just because I testify it, would you believe it? Sure, God COULD do such a thing, but that doesn't mean he DID. And someone's testimony doesnt necessarily make it true.

But I must say, despite your side-point, you come damn close to contradicting yourself there, don't you? You must admit, it is difficult to see why you take the first paragraph as, so to speak, Gospel, but the next two are not worthy of consideration?

[OnlyAmbrose]

OnlyAmbrose said:
Completely different circumstances thought Jay. Jesus HIMSELF had told the disciples that he would die and rise again. Thomas just didn't believe him. We now get the good news from the Bible which has been passed down from generation to generation.

In the cases of these two missionaries, you can't have any idea. Joseph Smith "testified" that God instructed him to purify Christianity, and the Mormon Church was founded. You don't believe THAT testimony do you?

I could testify that I chopped my own arm off with a hacksaw and God put it back on. Just because I testify it, would you believe it? Sure, God COULD do such a thing, but that doesn't mean he DID. And someone's testimony doesnt necessarily make it true.

But I must say, despite your side-point, you come damn close to contradicting yourself there, don't you? You must admit, it is difficult to see why you take the first paragraph as, so to speak, Gospel, but the next two are not worthy of consideration?

Well let's take each on seperately.

I don't believe Joseph Smith's testimony based on theological and historical reasons. That's why I'm not a Mormon- the basic theology of Christians and several historical aspects simply don't match up. But that's for another thread, unless there's any LDS people here who would care for a debate here and now

Now to the other. Let's say some guy posts on a forum that he just chopped off his arm and he watched as God stuck it back on. Possible? Yes. Do I believe it happened? Not really... firstly because it was over the internet, on which people claim hundreds of weird things... but mostly because it has no effect on me whatsoever, and thus I don't need to do much considering on the matter.

The case of Jesus is quite different. The history of the Church, most particularly of Paul the Apostle, lends credibility to it. The fact that Jesus willingly died for the sake of this "cult" he created gives it heart. Personal experiences I've had give it substance. Communities built around it give it vitality. Doctrines and commandments give it definition. To me, Christianity and Jesus are living and breathing. I have yet to have my faith severely shaken (that's not to say it hasn't ever been shaken at all) because I have yet to find anything which can adequately deny this credibility, heart, substance, vitality, and definition.

Point is, Christianity is a very visible force. Though we can no longer see Jesus on Earth, we can see the Church he established, and if you look through the eyes of the Church you can see His manifestations of love. Some people just don't see them as such because they choose to look past or around the Church.

[Stopper]

Point is, Christianity is a very visible force. Though we can no longer see Jesus on Earth, we can see the Church he established, and if you look through the eyes of the Church you can see His manifestations of love. Some people just don't see them as such because they choose to look past or around the Church.

You're going to call me materialistic, but in a nutshell, I'd say Christianity (and others) provided social stability and dare I say, entertainment, for many hundreds of years, but began to outlast its usefulness when Galileo first pointed his telescope.

There IS an objective reality out there, despite that link I put on the other thread, but there probably isn't divinity in it. Happiness nowadays comes from other people, and the increasing standards of living we have had for the last couple of hundreds of years.

[jay_a2j]

Point is, Christianity is a very visible force. Though we can no longer see Jesus on Earth, we can see the Church he established, and if you look through the eyes of the Church you can see His manifestations of love. Some people just don't see them as such because they choose to look past or around the Church.

You're going to call me materialistic, but in a nutshell, I'd say Christianity (and others) provided social stability and dare I say, entertainment, for many hundreds of years, but began to outlast its usefulness when Galileo first pointed his telescope.

There IS an objective reality out there, despite that link I put on the other thread, but there probably isn't divinity in it. Happiness nowadays comes from other people, and the increasing standards of living we have had for the last couple of hundreds of years.

[jay_a2j]

But wouldn't you like to go see it for your self?

I know I would.

"Thomas, you have believed because you have seen, blessed is he who believes without seeing"


I'll take the testimony at face value. Sure it would be cool to fellowship with those two men.... but its not a high priority.

Completely different circumstances thought Jay. Jesus HIMSELF had told the disciples that he would die and rise again. Thomas just didn't believe him. We now get the good news from the Bible which has been passed down from generation to generation.

In the cases of these two missionaries, you can't have any idea. Joseph Smith "testified" that God instructed him to purify Christianity, and the Mormon Church was founded. You don't believe THAT testimony do you?

I could testify that I chopped my own arm off with a hacksaw and God put it back on. Just because I testify it, would you believe it? Sure, God COULD do such a thing, but that doesn't mean he DID. And someone's testimony doesnt necessarily make it true.

Why is everyone getting hung up on the limb thing?????

Lets recap:

1. A few missionaries testify to seeing limbs regenerationg. (and no they did not collect a love offering afterwards)

2. God Can (at least I believe He can)

3. I believe the testimony of these two men although my faith is NOT based on this incident.

4. If this in fact did not happen and the two men are wrong....so be it...God STILL can.


As for believing anything and everything that people may testify too...no, it must fall in line with scripture.

[OnlyAmbrose]

But wouldn't you like to go see it for your self?

I know I would.

"Thomas, you have believed because you have seen, blessed is he who believes without seeing"


I'll take the testimony at face value. Sure it would be cool to fellowship with those two men.... but its not a high priority.

Completely different circumstances thought Jay. Jesus HIMSELF had told the disciples that he would die and rise again. Thomas just didn't believe him. We now get the good news from the Bible which has been passed down from generation to generation.

In the cases of these two missionaries, you can't have any idea. Joseph Smith "testified" that God instructed him to purify Christianity, and the Mormon Church was founded. You don't believe THAT testimony do you?

I could testify that I chopped my own arm off with a hacksaw and God put it back on. Just because I testify it, would you believe it? Sure, God COULD do such a thing, but that doesn't mean he DID. And someone's testimony doesnt necessarily make it true.

Why is everyone getting hung up on the limb thing?????

Lets recap:

1. A few missionaries testify to seeing limbs regenerationg. (and no they did not collect a love offering afterwards)

2. God Can (at least I believe He can)

3. I believe the testimony of these two men although my faith is NOT based on this incident.

4. If this in fact did not happen and the two men are wrong....so be it...God STILL can.


As for believing anything and everything that people may testify too...no, it must fall in line with scripture.

It's point #3 I'm hung up on. Believing something just because someone told you and for NO OTHER REASON WHATSOEVER (see this is why this case is different from Christianity- I'm not Christian because I'm told to be) DOES severely impair credibility, both to yourself and to Christians because it draws the implication that ALL of our beliefs are founded in such a manner.

[jay_a2j]

It's point #3 I'm hung up on. Believing something just because someone told you and for NO OTHER REASON WHATSOEVER (see this is why this case is different from Christianity- I'm not Christian because I'm told to be) DOES severely impair credibility, both to yourself and to Christians because it draws the implication that ALL of our beliefs are founded in such a manner.

Are you serious? So if a believer testifies to something you discount it?

And I don't believe it "for no other reason". I believe it is possible because GOD CAN!


I have been to churches where the pastor says something that doesn't follow scripture...and I have gotten up and walked out. Its called disernment... maybe you don't believe in this gift. Don't think I'm some fool who will buy anything someone tells me as that is far from the truth. But if you can't accept testimony from fellow believers there is a problem. How else do you think the Christian faith has grown to what it is today? TESTIMONY.

[2dimes]

Me personally, I'm hung up on it because it would be too big to ignore.

I would definatly make an effort to check it out.

[OnlyAmbrose]

It's point #3 I'm hung up on. Believing something just because someone told you and for NO OTHER REASON WHATSOEVER (see this is why this case is different from Christianity- I'm not Christian because I'm told to be) DOES severely impair credibility, both to yourself and to Christians because it draws the implication that ALL of our beliefs are founded in such a manner.

Are you serious? So if a believer testifies to something you discount it?

And I don't believe it "for no other reason". I believe it is possible because GOD CAN!


I have been to churches where the pastor says something that doesn't follow scripture...and I have gotten up and walked out. Its called disernment... maybe you don't believe in this gift. Don't think I'm some fool who will buy anything someone tells me as that is far from the truth. But if you can't accept testimony from fellow believers there is a problem. How else do you think the Christian faith has grown to what it is today? TESTIMONY.

Certainly, if someone close to me shared an amazing experience such as this with me I would be quite inclined to believe it.

But a story which was passed onto me such as this one by some guy I've never seen in person and only know via a Risk forum who heard it from I-don't-know-where? There is virtually no reason to believe it. I trust people I can speak to in person. That's why online evangelists haven't caught on yet.

On that note, I don't know you're actually a believer. You don't know if those two missionaries EXIST, let alone if they are believers. There's something PERSONAL about religion, at least to me.

[jay_a2j]

It's point #3 I'm hung up on. Believing something just because someone told you and for NO OTHER REASON WHATSOEVER (see this is why this case is different from Christianity- I'm not Christian because I'm told to be) DOES severely impair credibility, both to yourself and to Christians because it draws the implication that ALL of our beliefs are founded in such a manner.

Are you serious? So if a believer testifies to something you discount it?

And I don't believe it "for no other reason". I believe it is possible because GOD CAN!


I have been to churches where the pastor says something that doesn't follow scripture...and I have gotten up and walked out. Its called disernment... maybe you don't believe in this gift. Don't think I'm some fool who will buy anything someone tells me as that is far from the truth. But if you can't accept testimony from fellow believers there is a problem. How else do you think the Christian faith has grown to what it is today? TESTIMONY.

Certainly, if someone close to me shared an amazing experience such as this with me I would be quite inclined to believe it.

But a story which was passed onto me such as this one by some guy I've never seen in person and only know via a Risk forum who heard it from I-don't-know-where? There is virtually no reason to believe it. I trust people I can speak to in person. That's why online evangelists haven't caught on yet.

On that note, I don't know you're actually a believer. You don't know if those two missionaries EXIST, let alone if they are believers. There's something PERSONAL about religion, at least to me.

You're right. You don't have to believe any thing I say. And it won't effect me in the slightest. I don't care. I know what I know and believe what I believe. And many thing have been testified to "in person"... yet that is not even full-prove from those that decieve. Good luck.



One more thing. You know how Bush claims he is Christian? Well, I have had my doubts for some time (since 911 to be exact). But look at the countless people who maintain that he is?

[OnlyAmbrose]

It's point #3 I'm hung up on. Believing something just because someone told you and for NO OTHER REASON WHATSOEVER (see this is why this case is different from Christianity- I'm not Christian because I'm told to be) DOES severely impair credibility, both to yourself and to Christians because it draws the implication that ALL of our beliefs are founded in such a manner.

Are you serious? So if a believer testifies to something you discount it?

And I don't believe it "for no other reason". I believe it is possible because GOD CAN!


I have been to churches where the pastor says something that doesn't follow scripture...and I have gotten up and walked out. Its called disernment... maybe you don't believe in this gift. Don't think I'm some fool who will buy anything someone tells me as that is far from the truth. But if you can't accept testimony from fellow believers there is a problem. How else do you think the Christian faith has grown to what it is today? TESTIMONY.

Certainly, if someone close to me shared an amazing experience such as this with me I would be quite inclined to believe it.

But a story which was passed onto me such as this one by some guy I've never seen in person and only know via a Risk forum who heard it from I-don't-know-where? There is virtually no reason to believe it. I trust people I can speak to in person. That's why online evangelists haven't caught on yet.

On that note, I don't know you're actually a believer. You don't know if those two missionaries EXIST, let alone if they are believers. There's something PERSONAL about religion, at least to me.

You're right. You don't have to believe any thing I say. And it won't effect me in the slightest. I don't care. I know what I know and believe what I believe. And many thing have been testified to "in person"... yet that is not even full-prove from those that decieve. Good luck.

You're quite correct on the last count. And in person, I can often be naively trusting. But for me to be naively trusting... I have to place trust in a person obviously. And that generally doesn't happen at a distance. Maybe that's just the way I'm wired, but it doesn't seem altogether unreasonable, nor does it seem altogether over-cynical. I don't think God has a problem with it, to be quite frank. I'm careful about where I place my trust, and I think that, if anything, that is encouraged in the Bible. I can't guarantee that my trust won't be misplaced, nothing can guarantee that, but I can at the very least put some care into what my trust is placed in. What's more, I think it makes the things I DO place my trust in far more special.

[vtmarik]

*watches the discussion from a distance* Oh god bless us, everyone!

[OnlyAmbrose]

Because we're getting a bit off-topic, I'll sum up my point and you can do what you wish with it:

I don't think that God is in any way disappointed that I don't believe that something happened soley off the word of a guy I don't know who heard it from some uncited source.

I DO think that God would be disappointed if I denied that such a thing were possible. Which I haven't.

[vtmarik]

Because we're getting a bit off-topic, I'll sum up my point and you can do what you wish with it:

I don't think that God is in any way disappointed that I don't believe that something happened soley off the word of a guy I don't know who heard it from some uncited source.

I DO think that God would be disappointed if I denied that such a thing were possible. Which I haven't.

*grabs flags and prepares to judge* Alright, measuring point against point and judging solely on soundness of the argument.

Jay: Just because I have no evidence, that doesn't change that God can, therefore I believe that it occurred.

OA: I don't believe that it occurred simply because someone is convinced that it happened, however I do believe that God can do it.

If my summations are accurate, I shall now judge the winner.

*raises flag on Ambrose's side* Winner, OnlyAmbrose!

[Backglass]

*raises flag on Ambrose's side* Winner, OnlyAmbrose!

We have a WIMMER!!!!!!

[mightyal]

Is anyone else enjoying this talk of hanging around with jesus?
It crucifies me is all.

[reverend_kyle]

*raises flag on Ambrose's side* Winner, OnlyAmbrose!

We have a WIMMER!!!!!!

what is his pwize?

[vtmarik]

*raises flag on Ambrose's side* Winner, OnlyAmbrose!

We have a WIMMER!!!!!!

what is his pwize?

Mario, dancing.