SB 1070: Most Controversial Component IS Constitutional

[bedub1]

the bill got shot down by a judge.

[nietzsche]

I'm not taking sides.

However, how can someone who enter illegally can complain? Or others illegals complain for him?

Also, what is the proportion of whites, latins and africanamericans in AZ?

Why can't a state who knows best its problems than DC expel illegal immigrants if they want?

Americans are super sensitives to racism, it's a moral superiority complex for those who call you racist, every time some one judges me claiming moral superiority, I calmly tell him that I don't care about his moral code and that if he likes I can show him the baseless of it. And they walk away claiming moral superiority again lol.

[nietzsche]

Oh I just heard it was chopped off. I think all was left its the possibility of the Governor to say they have illegal immigrants.

[Phatscotty]

I find it interesting how they tack all those fines on any illegals they might catch. I wonder how they expect them to pay them?

Otherwise there are still some issues with this law, police can basically make up any reason they want for "reasonably" stopping you, your only recourse is to sue the state if it pisses you off enough. Most people wont though they will just take the admittedly minor abuse and continue with their day. I suspect there will be a large number Hispanic people in Arizona who will find themselves "reasonably" stopped "oh you're a citizen I'll let you off with a warning *wink* *wink*" better hope they are carrying ID!

wow, that's something new? Bad cops should not be your argument against good laws...

[Phatscotty]

I'm pretty sure any illegal who is unlawfully stopped will be freed, and I KNOW the officer will be punished because the law itself says it will happen. Plus, every single pro-illegal immigration group will be having every eye focused on the state waiting for the first screw up.

Ah and nothing will happen to the Illegal eh? they'll just let them go like catch and release fisherman?

Your faith in the police to self regulate themselves is charming.

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

what the???

[Baron Von PWN]

I find it interesting how they tack all those fines on any illegals they might catch. I wonder how they expect them to pay them?

Otherwise there are still some issues with this law, police can basically make up any reason they want for "reasonably" stopping you, your only recourse is to sue the state if it pisses you off enough. Most people wont though they will just take the admittedly minor abuse and continue with their day. I suspect there will be a large number Hispanic people in Arizona who will find themselves "reasonably" stopped "oh you're a citizen I'll let you off with a warning *wink* *wink*" better hope they are carrying ID!

wow, that's something new? Bad cops should not be your argument against good laws...

This law encourages police to look for illegals, the absolute letter of the law may not but the spirit of the law is "send them Mexicans home!". The result in my opinion will be an increase in arbitrary stops of Hispanics in general. Police don't normally stop people arbitrarily because they have no reason to, with this law you give them a reason.

The state wants them to help get rid of illegals, how can they do that effectively with this law if the police do nothing differently? Its not as if illegals speed more in fact I suspect they drive slower to avoid police attention (most probably don't even have cars). Other than being in the USA illegally they don't really anything out of they go to work, they go home engage in recreation. So they should look like any other Hispanic citizen if on the poorer side simply going about their daily business.

What legitimate reason will police have for arresting them in numbers which would actually do what this law is intended to do? Because if they act in a relatively normal manner they won't be doing any extra lawbreaking. The only way for this law to be effective is for police to abuse their powers by arbitrarily stopping people they think look like illegals (IE:Mexicans).

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

Sure illegals broke the law going to the USA, but as I argued above once in the USA they won't be significantly more likely to break the law. So what reason will the cops have for arresting them in order to find out if they have papers? Either they follow the absolute letter of the law and it will have little effect or they target Hispanics for arbitrary stops to achieve the desired results. One way you have a law that doesn't do its stated purpose, the other way you have a Law that does but targets a specific minority.

[PLAYER57832]

I'm pretty sure any illegal who is unlawfully stopped will be freed,

NO, NIghtstrike an illegal who is unlawfully stopped will be remanded to the feds, not freed. A citizen or legal resident will be released, eventually. However, they might miss work, lose their job, etc. AND, while sure, they can try to prove "false arrest/false imprisonment", under this law, even if the police just think the person is "loitering" or such, they can ask for ID, and if not convinced the person is a citizen, arrest them.

and I KNOW the officer will be punished because the law itself says it will happen. Plus, every single pro-illegal immigration group will be having every eye focused on the state waiting for the first screw up.

This is fully LEGAL, so no penalty would apply to the officer. However, if that person doesn't happen to have ready friends who can bring over their ID (maybe they are homeless, traveling -- but not driving, etc.) then they can sit in jail, lose a job, miss appointments, etc.

Ah and nothing will happen to the Illegal eh? they'll just let them go like catch and release fisherman?

Your faith in the police to self regulate themselves is charming.

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

what the???

[/quote]

Because, according to the re-written law, the police are only supposed to stop people suspected of another crime, not just becuase the cop thinks they "look foreign". SO, no, the police officer would not know that the crime of illegality had been commited in advance. That information would only be available after, and then it is up to the person to prove their innocence to the police officer. There is no assumption of innnocence, it is "we assume you are illegal and will treat you as if you are unless we are convinced you are legal".

FURTHERMORE, as Baron pointed out, Illegal aliens who are not drug lords, etc, are far LESS likely to commit crimes than citizens. So, having police ask for papers from people they are only stopping/questioning for other reasons will NOT catch very many illegal aliens.

It WILL cause problems for many people here legally who might be citizens and therefore exempt from carrying ID normally, but who might have an accent or just "look foreign" to any random police officer.

[bedub1]

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

Sure illegals broke the law going to the USA, but as I argued above once in the USA they won't be significantly more likely to break the law. So what reason will the cops have for arresting them in order to find out if they have papers? Either they follow the absolute letter of the law and it will have little effect or they target Hispanics for arbitrary stops to achieve the desired results. One way you have a law that doesn't do its stated purpose, the other way you have a Law that does but targets a specific minority.

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."

Yes, they are significantly more likely to break the law.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/ ... 4208.shtml

[Baron Von PWN]

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

Sure illegals broke the law going to the USA, but as I argued above once in the USA they won't be significantly more likely to break the law. So what reason will the cops have for arresting them in order to find out if they have papers? Either they follow the absolute letter of the law and it will have little effect or they target Hispanics for arbitrary stops to achieve the desired results. One way you have a law that doesn't do its stated purpose, the other way you have a Law that does but targets a specific minority.

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."

Yes, they are significantly more likely to break the law.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/ ... 4208.shtml

Not necessarily.

According to Edmonton and Smith in The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, "it is difficult to draw any strong conclusions on the association between immigration and crime".[59] Cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations.[116] Almost all of what is known about immigration and crime is from information on those in prison. Incarceration rates do not necessarily reflect differences in current crime rates.[59] A few of the other reasons also cited for why the extent of illegal immigrants' criminal activities is unknown are as follows:

* For many minor crimes, especially crimes involving juveniles, those who are apprehended are not arrested. Only a fraction of those who are arrested are ever brought to the courts for disposition.[59]

* Many illegal immigrants who are apprehended by Border Patrol agents are voluntarily returned to their home countries and are not ordinarily tabulated in national crime statistics. If immigrants, whether illegal or legal, are apprehended entering the United States while committing a crime, they are usually charged under federal statutes and, if convicted, are sent to federal prisons. Throughout this entire process, immigrants may have a chance of deportation, or of sentencing that is different from that for a native-born person.[59]

* We lack comprehensive information on whether arrested or jailed immigrants are illegal immigrants, nonimmigrants, or legal immigrants. Such information can be difficult to collect because immigrants may have a reason to provide false statements (if they reply that they are an illegal immigrant, they can be deported, for instance). The verification of the data is troublesome because it requires matching INS records with individuals who often lack documentation or present false documents.[59]


In 1999, law enforcement activities involving unauthorized immigrants in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas cost a combined total of more than $108 million. This cost did not include activities related to border enforcement. In San Diego County, the expense (over $50 million) was nine percent of the total county's budget for law enforcement that year.[117]

A study by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that, "cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations" but adds, "As with most studies, we do not have ideal data. This lack of data restricts the questions we will be able to answer. In particular, we cannot focus on the undocumented population explicitly".[118]

A study published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas has found that while property-related crime rates have not been affected by increased immigration (both legal and illegal), in border counties there is a significant positive correlation between illegal immigration and violent crime, most likely due to extensive smuggling activity along the border.[119]

Another study, by the immigrant-advocacy group, Immigration Policy Center, based on U.S. Census Bureau data, found that large increases in illegal immigration do not result in a rise in crime[120]

On August 6, 2008, an audit done by agents of Immigration and Customs Enforcement found that 122 of the 637 jail inmates in the Lake County, Illinois jail were of questionable immigration status. Of those 122 originally suspected, only 75 were later ordered to face deportation proceedings by the ICE. According to Lake County sheriff Mark Curran, illegal immigrants were charged with half of the 14 murders in the county.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

What does this show us?

I think it shows that there are two types of Illegal migrants. Those who wish to go to the USA to engage in honest work(breaking no laws other than those to do with labor and immigration), these people want to escape their current situations back home and make a new life which may explain findings suggesting increased immigration results in no increase in crime or even decreases crime in cities.

Then there are Illegal immigrants who don't necessarily even live in the USA they are simply people involved in the drug and smuggling trade(which can involve immigrants) they don't have an interest in making a new life in the USA they simply want to make a profit off smuggling and may sneak back and forth across the border frequently or perform deals on the border. This problem IMO exists mostly due to the war on drugs, if they were legal and regulated theses guys could no longer make a profit and would find something else to do, but that's off topic.

Both types of immigrants can get caught crossing the border and sent to US prison rather than simply being deported. So simply because there are allot of illegal immigrants in jail doesn't necessarily mean they have committed any crimes (other than illegally immigrating.). The criminal types are also more likely to be caught as they cross the border more frequently than the working types who only want to cross once, as well as engaging in risky behavior likely to attract law enforcement's attention (war on drugs ect).

[Phatscotty]

I find it interesting how they tack all those fines on any illegals they might catch. I wonder how they expect them to pay them?

Otherwise there are still some issues with this law, police can basically make up any reason they want for "reasonably" stopping you, your only recourse is to sue the state if it pisses you off enough. Most people wont though they will just take the admittedly minor abuse and continue with their day. I suspect there will be a large number Hispanic people in Arizona who will find themselves "reasonably" stopped "oh you're a citizen I'll let you off with a warning *wink* *wink*" better hope they are carrying ID!

wow, that's something new? Bad cops should not be your argument against good laws...

This law encourages police to look for illegals

im just gonna cut it short right there. I do not normally do that because of context issues, but that opening is simply insane...

[Phatscotty]

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

Sure illegals broke the law going to the USA, but as I argued above once in the USA they won't be significantly more likely to break the law.

Under the same rationale, Once I break into a house and decide I don't want to leaave, I won't be significantly more likely to break into anyone elses house.

again...WTF????

[Phatscotty]

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

Sure illegals broke the law going to the USA, but as I argued above once in the USA they won't be significantly more likely to break the law. So what reason will the cops have for arresting them in order to find out if they have papers? Either they follow the absolute letter of the law and it will have little effect or they target Hispanics for arbitrary stops to achieve the desired results. One way you have a law that doesn't do its stated purpose, the other way you have a Law that does but targets a specific minority.

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."

Yes, they are significantly more likely to break the law.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/ ... 4208.shtml

Not necessarily.

According to Edmonton and Smith in The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, "it is difficult to draw any strong conclusions on the association between immigration and crime".

OIC!!! why is it so difficult to draw strong conclusions? oh! cuz there is now way to know unless you check papers???

Why do you continually side with kidnapping and forced prostitution and straight up slavery, in order to oppose hurting a non-citizens feeling concerning non-citizenship?

what the hell is going on? Where you get your positions from and what you base it on? The illegals here are treated like shit and paid far below the work they do. I work with a lot of them. I thought I knew about the issue before I took my current job. Even though I searched for information and thought I had an informed opinion, I realized I did not know shit. Now, many of them are my friends. I even helped one guy get the ball rolling on a legalization process. probably just my racism coming out, or trying to cover it up? or maybe hes just a great guy who has had some bad cards dealt to him?

I'm not trying to shut you up, but these guys face so many dangers. such as being kidnapped, forced into slavery, and I even know a guy who got raped on a train coming from central america through mexico. The story is much much worse, but you will think I am making it up anyways. The possible discrimination and hurting of feelings [(of which I do not think there will be ANY, (I read the law...)] is about the last concern these guys have.

[King Doctor]

Why do you continually side with kidnapping and forced prostitution and straight up slavery

Is this what you are saying immigrants represent?

[Phatscotty]

Why do you continually side with kidnapping and forced prostitution and straight up slavery

Is this what you are saying immigrants represent?

what? total fail.

Are you really unaware of the kidnapping and forced prostitution and slavery and who it effects? Why would you even respond to that comment not having a clue?

[Timminz]

something illegal has already happened!!! This is a "police" response...you might know it as "enforcement of the law".

Sure illegals broke the law going to the USA, but as I argued above once in the USA they won't be significantly more likely to break the law.

Under the same rationale, Once I break into a house and decide I don't want to leaave, I won't be significantly more likely to break into anyone elses house.

again...WTF????

Exactly. Once those Mexicans are in the USA, they are far less likely to illegally immigrate into another country.

How is that so hard to comprehend?

[PLAYER57832]

Why do you continually side with kidnapping and forced prostitution and straight up slavery

Is this what you are saying immigrants represent?

what? total fail.

Are you really unaware of the kidnapping and forced prostitution and slavery and who it effects? Why would you even respond to that comment not having a clue?

Phattscotty. In that your next to last post (the longer one), you actually made a good deal of sense and showed that you have some understanding of the real issues.

Yet, you go from that compassion to supporting the Arizona law, which is going to do nothing but harm to people who really just want to work. You are not old enough to remember, but I am. What caused the phenomenal increase in border crime was the increase in enforcement.

Now, don't read that to mean we need to go back to open borders. That ship has sailed. There is already built up a huge criminal contingent. They sell drugs here, they buy guns here and then use them. They make huge amounts of money trafficking people over the border. We have to nail these guys. BUT, nothing in this Arizona law will do that. Those guys are already criminals. If they are caught, they will already be shipped home. THIS law will target the neighbors of those people, the ones who maybe hired them to get here and then regretted it, the ones who are willing to step forward as witnesses.

Furthermore, you have said more than once that you work with these people. Yet, you sit here and argue that we need to close the borders, crack down on them. You have (obviously) not reported your employer. So, in fact, you are acting quite the hypocrite here.

[Phatscotty]

Why do you continually side with kidnapping and forced prostitution and straight up slavery

Is this what you are saying immigrants represent?

what? total fail.

Are you really unaware of the kidnapping and forced prostitution and slavery and who it effects? Why would you even respond to that comment not having a clue?

Phattscotty. In that your next to last post (the longer one), you actually made a good deal of sense and showed that you have some understanding of the real issues.

Yet, you go from that compassion to supporting the Arizona law, which is going to do nothing but harm to people who really just want to work. You are not old enough to remember, but I am. What caused the phenomenal increase in border crime was the increase in enforcement.

Now, don't read that to mean we need to go back to open borders. That ship has sailed. There is already built up a huge criminal contingent. They sell drugs here, they buy guns here and then use them. They make huge amounts of money trafficking people over the border. We have to nail these guys. BUT, nothing in this Arizona law will do that. Those guys are already criminals. If they are caught, they will already be shipped home. THIS law will target the neighbors of those people, the ones who maybe hired them to get here and then regretted it, the ones who are willing to step forward as witnesses.

Furthermore, you have said more than once that you work with these people. Yet, you sit here and argue that we need to close the borders, crack down on them. You have (obviously) not reported your employer. So, in fact, you are acting quite the hypocrite here.

Thank you for that. I just disagree that it will "do nothing but harm". I think you might want to look at (at least how it is on paper, since it isnt law now) all AZ will do is turn them over to ICE. Realistically, ICE will probably just let them go or refuse to process them (do their job) in the first place (I think I already heard someone from ICE say they can't and they won't) I know many of them just want to work, as is the case with most in my work-life. I also do not think the AZ law is intended to crack down "only" on crime. Your point is valid, but the spectrum of your point is one (lesser point IMO) of many points for the damage illegals cause to state and local gov'ts. Ive pontificated on this here or in one of the other threads. IMO, the people who ONLY focus on the criminal aspect of illegal immigration (even though they all knowingly committed a crime!) are not the most informed and I might even suspect racist.

I don't really agree with your characterization of my stance either, although I will admit one or more could conclude that about my position; just catching pieces, and FRAGMENTS!. I respect hispanic work ethic tremendously, and they are very friendly. At first I figured most hispanics were just nice around Daddy Gringo, and then after we all punch out it would be screw you Gringo. I know a few people who are like that, but just a few. After a While I started to give them rides home, and some of my new hispanic friends would introduce me to their wife or give me a piece of Apple Pie (honest). I also admit, it is a touchy subject around the workplace. WE have talk radio on, and I have my conservative talkers going at it (except rush, thats music time) and we talk about it openly. I explain plain and simple, just as I do here.

As for my official position, I respect AZ and US citizens to govern themselves. ESPECIALLY at a State level. Now, there are many different things I would support (such as if they are gonna stay they better start paying taxes!) There is no doubt we will have to legalize a very large portion of them, but this is not the honorable, assimilating way to do it. This makes for bad citizens who, while I wont say will break the law more, but will respect our laws less. Also, I am aware there are problems with Americas side (duh, its the gov't!) We are the lifeboat of the Western Hemisphere, and I do not blame hispanics one bit! I completely understand, and I would do the same thing! However, when they started to "crackdown", I would be thankful for the work I was able to find while it was here, and I would also be operating under the pretext (if i were illegal) that my stay in the USA would not last forever. But for me, it's a direct conflict between citizens of my country and citizens of a foreign country. Guess which ones I support?

[PLAYER57832]

I don't really agree with your characterization of my stance either, although I will admit one or more could conclude that about my position; just catching pieces, and FRAGMENTS!. I respect hispanic work ethic tremendously, and they are very friendly. At first I figured most hispanics were just nice around Daddy Gringo, and then after we all punch out it would be screw you Gringo. I know a few people who are like that, but just a few. After a While I started to give them rides home, and some of my new hispanic friends would introduce me to their wife or give me a piece of Apple Pie (honest). I also admit, it is a touchy subject around the workplace. WE have talk radio on, and I have my conservative talkers going at it (except rush, thats music time) and we talk about it openly. I explain plain and simple, just as I do here.

Wait, I had to stop here. I thought we were talking about illegal immigrants.. not hispanics.???

[Phatscotty]

I don't really agree with your characterization of my stance either, although I will admit one or more could conclude that about my position; just catching pieces, and FRAGMENTS!. I respect hispanic work ethic tremendously, and they are very friendly. At first I figured most hispanics were just nice around Daddy Gringo, and then after we all punch out it would be screw you Gringo. I know a few people who are like that, but just a few. After a While I started to give them rides home, and some of my new hispanic friends would introduce me to their wife or give me a piece of Apple Pie (honest). I also admit, it is a touchy subject around the workplace. WE have talk radio on, and I have my conservative talkers going at it (except rush, thats music time) and we talk about it openly. I explain plain and simple, just as I do here.

Wait, I had to stop here. I thought we were talking about illegal immigrants.. not hispanics.???

Well, I am talking about the illegal immigrants at my workplace. There used to be 1 guy from Liberia, but he doesn't work with us anymore.

100% hispanic. I know for a fact they are illegal, because if they were citizens, they would not be doing this god awful job for minimum wage. They only work at our place at minimum wage because they do not know how to read English. All you need at my workplace, and I assume for most if not all across the USA, is to APPLY for a SS#. you do not actually need one. I hear a joke cracked about the amigos using my or others SS# at least once a week. It's not funny to me though.

If I did not clearly state that I was talking about my co-workers, forgive me why don't ya?

[PLAYER57832]

I don't really agree with your characterization of my stance either, although I will admit one or more could conclude that about my position; just catching pieces, and FRAGMENTS!. I respect hispanic work ethic tremendously, and they are very friendly. At first I figured most hispanics were just nice around Daddy Gringo, and then after we all punch out it would be screw you Gringo. I know a few people who are like that, but just a few. After a While I started to give them rides home, and some of my new hispanic friends would introduce me to their wife or give me a piece of Apple Pie (honest). I also admit, it is a touchy subject around the workplace. WE have talk radio on, and I have my conservative talkers going at it (except rush, thats music time) and we talk about it openly. I explain plain and simple, just as I do here.

Wait, I had to stop here. I thought we were talking about illegal immigrants.. not hispanics.???

Well, I am talking about the illegal immigrants at my workplace. There used to be 1 guy from Liberia, but he doesn't work with us anymore.

100% hispanic. I know for a fact they are illegal, because if they were citizens, they would not be doing this god awful job for minimum wage. They only work at our place at minimum wage because they do not know how to read English. All you need at my workplace, and I assume for most if not all across the USA, is to APPLY for a SS#. you do not actually need one. I hear a joke cracked about the amigos using my or others SS# at least once a week. It's not funny to me though.

If I did not clearly state that I was talking about my co-workers, forgive me why don't ya?

OK

As for my official position, I respect AZ and US citizens to govern themselves. ESPECIALLY at a State level. Now, there are many different things I would support (such as if they are gonna stay they better start paying taxes!) There is no doubt we will have to legalize a very large portion of them, but this is not the honorable, assimilating way to do it. This makes for bad citizens who, while I wont say will break the law more, but will respect our laws less. Also, I am aware there are problems with Americas side (duh, its the gov't!) We are the lifeboat of the Western Hemisphere, and I do not blame hispanics one bit! I completely understand, and I would do the same thing! However, when they started to "crackdown", I would be thankful for the work I was able to find while it was here, and I would also be operating under the pretext (if i were illegal) that my stay in the USA would not last forever. But for me, it's a direct conflict between citizens of my country and citizens of a foreign country. Guess which ones I support?

Let's first make one thing clear. Amesty, etc was never really about altruism or liberal "feel good" stuff, the real truth is it was about bringing in and keeping a lot of cheap labor quickly. And, it did just that. And, that is now why so many people are angry.

But, it really isn't the liberals you can blame.. it is the conservative leadership, beginning with Mr Ronald R. himself.

Anyway, that's the problem with this debate. The conservatives want to blame everyone but their own policies for this mess. Yes, having so many undocumented workers IS a problem. Having so many people come here from one region of the world is likely a problem, not because "their ways" are "bad", but becuase they represent a wholescale change that a lot of people just have not wanted. America has experienced many waves of immigrants, but this one from the south truly is far larger than others and... the impact needs to be considered honestly. Its not all bad, but its not all good either.

But, here is the thing. To solve this, we have to look at the real and true cause. Yet, conservatives have historically talked out of both sides of their mouth on this. They are happy to tell blue-collar/working class folks that they want to be "tough on immigration".. at least now. But, in truth have been the very ones implementing the economic policies, accepting the low wage employment, etc. that creates this system.

You yourself know, from experience, that those who come here to work are not the ones committing the crimes. They too often may wind up paying the criminals to get here and may find themselves trapped as loved ones are held hostage, etc (often not just here, but also back home). Yet, the policies you seem to support are all about rounding up the illegal workers. Even much of your arguments are about all the crimes committed by illegals. More than once, I and others have tried to distinguish between those involved in the drug trade, etc and those who just come here to work. Your answer? They are all criminals!

Unless and until we talk about each group separately, we will continue to avoid any real solution. That sherrif in Mariposa is happy to round up a bunch of people who just want to work and then crow about "cleaning up criminals". Sure, they are criminals. However, are they the ones causing the real problems or are they the ones he can tag easily and boost his ratings?

This law will force we taxpayers to spend millions on deporting, sometimes trying, people who come here to work. It will take away from resources that could have been used to nail down the truly bad guys.

And, because it does not target the causes of any illegal immigration at all, it will be doomed to fail.
Immigrants ARE more likely to obey the law, because they are afraid of any contact with police. As for "not respecting our laws". From what I have seen most immigrants are happy to follow our laws, but they do have different cultures.. and sometimes have views about how things should change that might differ from what you and I see.

[Baron Von PWN]

OIC!!! why is it so difficult to draw strong conclusions? oh! cuz there is now way to know unless you check papers???

Why do you continually side with kidnapping and forced prostitution and straight up slavery, in order to oppose hurting a non-citizens feeling concerning non-citizenship?

what the hell is going on? Where you get your positions from and what you base it on? The illegals here are treated like shit and paid far below the work they do. I work with a lot of them. I thought I knew about the issue before I took my current job. Even though I searched for information and thought I had an informed opinion, I realized I did not know shit. Now, many of them are my friends. I even helped one guy get the ball rolling on a legalization process. probably just my racism coming out, or trying to cover it up? or maybe hes just a great guy who has had some bad cards dealt to him?

I'm not trying to shut you up, but these guys face so many dangers. such as being kidnapped, forced into slavery, and I even know a guy who got raped on a train coming from central america through mexico. The story is much much worse, but you will think I am making it up anyways. The possible discrimination and hurting of feelings [(of which I do not think there will be ANY, (I read the law...)] is about the last concern these guys have.

So because these people had such a hard time getting to the USA risking slavery,rape and kidnapping the best thing to do would be to put them in jail or send them back?

Why do you want to deport your friends and co-workers? How does this help them in any way how does it improve the situation?

You ask how I come to my positions, I typically form my opinion on what will cause the least harm overall and result in the most benefit. Who is this law harming? Illegal immigrants who you yourself know personally who are simply working low paying jobs in shitty conditions because apparently that is even better than going home. The people you work with do you think they are going out and robbing homes, stealing or otherwise engaging in lawless behavior in their spare time? Do you think they are a minority of the illegal immigrants?
I think most of the illegal immigrants are people who were dealt bad cards( like your co-workers) and have tried to improve their hand by risking illegal immigration to the USA. As you described these people are hardworking and good people, you like them so much you even drive them home after work! Why do you want to keep people like this out?

What this law will do is add one more bad card to their hand, make life that much harder for them. That's enough about the Illegals though let's look at how it might benefit the USA; Fewer illegals using the system (you will never get rid of all of them), might make life harder for smugglers, will result in deportation of more illegal immigrants (assuming that would even be a benefit), enforce respect for the law(?) . What's the bad of this law? you get rid of nice people like you described working with, you lose workers which are willing to do jobs Americans wont, government is straddled with the cost of extra enforcement while losing the economic benefits of illegals(they work and spend money in the USA), will potentially result in arbitrary stops and arrests of Hispanic citizens.

This is much more than "hurt feelings".

[Phatscotty]

If you really think I would like to see my friends deported, you are wrong.

Likewise, if you really think I want to see my best friend serve 5 years in prison for smoking a marijuana joint, you would be just as equally wrong.

The whole point is, don't wave your joint in front of a cop, and if you get busted, you can't sit and pretend you did not know marijuana was illegal, yet, Illegal immigrants make a sign that says "I am illegal" Likewise, Someone who comes into my country without going through customs and having their passport checked, ya know, to make sure they arent a criminal. If they do not sign the guest book, then they are here illegally. If you want to have the argument that nobody should have to carry an ID, then that is a valid argument. But don't juxtapose that stance onto the illegal immigration debate, and please do not put words in my mouth. The illegals should be glad they got away with it as long as they have, not openly demanding more...

[Phatscotty]

Supreme Court casts doubt on Obama’s immigration law claim

Supreme Court justices took a dim view of the Obama administration’s claim that it can stop Arizona from enforcing immigration laws, telling government lawyers during oral argument Wednesday that the state appears to want to push federal officials, not conflict with them.

The court was hearing arguments on Arizona’s immigration crackdown law, which requires police to check the immigration status of those they suspect are in the country illegally, and would also write new state penalties for illegal immigrants who try to apply for jobs.

The Obama administration has sued, arguing that those provisions conflict with the federal government’s role in setting immigration policy, but justices on both sides of the aisle struggled to understand that argument.

“It seems to me the federal government just doesn’t want to know who’s here illegally,” Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. said at one point.

The Arizona law requires all police to check with federal officials if they suspect someone is in the country illegally. The government argues that is OK when it’s on a limited basis, but said having a state mandate for all of its law enforcement is essentially a method of trying to force the federal government to change its priorities.
Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer talks to reporters in front of the Supreme Court of the United States in Washington, D.C., Wednesday, April 25, 2012, after the nation’s highest court heard arguments over Arizona’s immigration-crackdown law, known as S.B. 1070. (Rod Lamkey Jr./The Washington Times)

Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. said the federal government has limited resources and should have the right to determine the extent of calls it gets about possible illegal immigrants.

“These decisions have to be made at the national level,” he said.

But even Democratic-appointed justices were uncertain of that.

“I’m terribly confused by your answer,” said Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who went on to say that the federal government can always decline to pick up illegal immigrants when Arizona officials call.

read more http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ion-law-c/

[Phatscotty]

Boom!

Guess a lot of people misinterpreted the Constitution. Including Obama.....again!

and Obama was a Constitutional Scholar huh? Brilliant Genius?

Guess who is irresponsible and has the definition of fairness backwards?

President Obama misrepre­sented the law. Offering the example of a His­panic family going to an ice cream parlor, Obama suggested that a police officer could just walk up and start interrogating the family about their immigration documents

Guess who can still get ice cream and not be freightened by your imaginary Nazi scare tactics? Guess Obama and Calderon wasted their time bashing Arizona and calling their laws racist and discriminatory. Guess this had nothing to do with civil rights. Guess those were just lies.....

[saxitoxin]

Wait ... they sided with Obama on 75% of his points and struck down three of the law's four provisions as unconstitutional. And that was with Kagan abstaining.

Scott, you would have been a good publicist for Evil Knievel. After his rocket cycle jump over the Grand Canyon in which he broke 28 bones landing on the other side and was hospitalized for two years, the press release would have read ...

"EVIL KNIEVEL SUCCESFULLY JUMPS GRAND CANYON!"