Racism as perceived by ViperOverLord

[patches70]

These being laws that could not be enforced, but were still in state law. The percentage of voters who voted against taking away that language...

Still a problem.

Man, the US has lots of laws still on the books that are never enforced. In my town it is technically illegal to drive your car with the head lights on during the day because it scares the horses. LOL, strange but true.

Yeah, but how many people would vote against taking that law off the books? That was kind of my point. It's not the stupidity of the law that's the problem, but that so many people supported it.

Consider, voter participation is usually around 30%. So, out of the 100% of people who could have voted, maybe only 30% choose to. Out of those 30%, 66% and 59% respectively voted to get rid of the law in the two aforementioned States. Are you thinking that 38% of the entire state population of SC and 41% of the entire population of Alabama are some sort of racists even though you have no idea of what percentage of the population even voted?

It's just not as many people as you may be thinking based on those numbers is all I'm saying. 100% of the populations of the states didn't vote, sir.

Bit of a surprising response this, but no I do not think that, or indeed say that at all. Nor did the sources that backed up what I did say, say anything like that. Still, I appreciate your incredulity at the point I didn't make.

Can I see your sources now? Or were you simply misrepresenting my point on a whim?

Misrepresenting your point? You mean this one-

but that so many people supported it.

So, how many did support it? You didn't provide any numbers at all. Nor did you provide any demographics. Of the people who voted to not eliminate the law, how many were white? Black? Asian?
If an African American voted to not eliminate the interracial marriage laws are they racists?
You seem to assume that there is a huge number of people who voted for a ban on interracial marriage laws even though you provide no evidence of how many people that is at all. And you seem surprised that there are so many people when you don't even know how many people there are who feel that way.

That's all I was asking if you had considered. I assume you posted all that because more than half who voted in this thread's poll voted that it wasn't much of a problem. You associated this poll with the the evidence you posted-

if you don't think racism is a problem in the US, and have voted so in this poll,

It seems to me that you were trying to offer some sort of statistics to show that those who voted that it's not as big a problem as it's made out to be to consider what you've found. If I'm wrong on that then forgive me, but that's what it seemed you were doing.

And what sources are you wanting? SC has around 2.8 million registered voters. How many voted in your poll you provided? I have no idea. You posted it, how many voted in it? You think some 1 million South Caronlinians voted to uphold the interracial marriage laws? Maybe, I have no idea. But I'd think it's a lot less than you are thinking.....


And I didn't say you said anything at all, I was just asking. You did say-

It's not the stupidity of the law that's the problem, but that so many people supported it.

So, I'll ask you again and maybe you'll answer-

How many people do you think supported it?

[Woodruff]

These being laws that could not be enforced, but were still in state law. The percentage of voters who voted against taking away that language...

Still a problem.

Man, the US has lots of laws still on the books that are never enforced. In my town it is technically illegal to drive your car with the head lights on during the day because it scares the horses. LOL, strange but true.

Yeah, but how many people would vote against taking that law off the books? That was kind of my point. It's not the stupidity of the law that's the problem, but that so many people supported it.

Consider, voter participation is usually around 30%. So, out of the 100% of people who could have voted, maybe only 30% choose to. Out of those 30%, 66% and 59% respectively voted to get rid of the law in the two aforementioned States. Are you thinking that 38% of the entire state population of SC and 41% of the entire population of Alabama are some sort of racists even though you have no idea of what percentage of the population even voted?

It's just not as many people as you may be thinking based on those numbers is all I'm saying. 100% of the populations of the states didn't vote, sir.

I don't know anything about South Carolina. But I would absolutely believe that 41% of the ENTIRE population of Alabama are racist, unfortunately. Yes, that includes blacks.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Just going off of Vipers quote on page 1...Haven't seen any racism at all in the middle east...Skin colour doesn't matter, seen white people live among them (Though far and few between) other then that the vast majority is just Arabic.

Religion of course is an entirely different issue.

[natty dread]

It's time to bring this thread back.

So, racism is not a problem in the US?

Why then, when a 17-year old black person is brutally murdered by a white person, the police does nothing because the white person is an "upstanding member of the community"?

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecu ... on-martin#

On February 26, our son Trayvon Martin was shot and killed as he walked to a family member's home from a convenience store where he had just bought some candy. He was only 17 years-old.

Trayvon's killer, George Zimmerman, admitted to police that he shot Trayvon in the chest. Zimmerman, the community's self appointed "neighborhood watch leader," called the police to report a suspicious person when he saw Travyon, a young black man, walking from the store. But Zimmerman still hasn't been charged for murdering our son.

Trayvon was our hero. At the age 9, Trayvon pulled his father from a burning kitchen, saving his life. He loved sports and horseback riding. At only 17 he had a bright future ahead of him with dreams of attending college and becoming an aviation mechanic. Now that’s all gone.

When Zimmerman reported Trayvon to the police, they told him not to confront him. But he did anyway. All we know about what happened next is that our 17 year-old son, who was completely unarmed, was shot and killed.

It's been nearly two weeks and the Sanford Police have refused to arrest George Zimmerman. In their public statements, they even go so far as to stand up for the killer - saying he's "a college grad" who took a class in criminal justice.

Please join us in calling on Norman Wolfinger, Florida's 18th District State's Attorney, to investigate my son's murder and prosecute George Zimmerman for the shooting and killing of Trayvon Martin.

[notyou2]

It's time to bring this thread back.

So, racism is not a problem in the US?

Why then, when a 17-year old black person is brutally murdered by a white person, the police does nothing because the white person is an "upstanding member of the community"?

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecu ... on-martin#

On February 26, our son Trayvon Martin was shot and killed as he walked to a family member's home from a convenience store where he had just bought some candy. He was only 17 years-old.

Trayvon's killer, George Zimmerman, admitted to police that he shot Trayvon in the chest. Zimmerman, the community's self appointed "neighborhood watch leader," called the police to report a suspicious person when he saw Travyon, a young black man, walking from the store. But Zimmerman still hasn't been charged for murdering our son.

Trayvon was our hero. At the age 9, Trayvon pulled his father from a burning kitchen, saving his life. He loved sports and horseback riding. At only 17 he had a bright future ahead of him with dreams of attending college and becoming an aviation mechanic. Now that’s all gone.

When Zimmerman reported Trayvon to the police, they told him not to confront him. But he did anyway. All we know about what happened next is that our 17 year-old son, who was completely unarmed, was shot and killed.

It's been nearly two weeks and the Sanford Police have refused to arrest George Zimmerman. In their public statements, they even go so far as to stand up for the killer - saying he's "a college grad" who took a class in criminal justice.

Please join us in calling on Norman Wolfinger, Florida's 18th District State's Attorney, to investigate my son's murder and prosecute George Zimmerman for the shooting and killing of Trayvon Martin.

Wow, that is just horrible. The vigilante should be jailed for life. This is why citizens should not be allowed to form local auxiliary police units. It attracts the unstable.

[john9blue]

yeah, that guy sounds like a psycho.

but why does one incident prove racism is a problem in the US? was the guy even racially motivated?

[natty dread]

yeah, that guy sounds like a psycho.

but why does one incident prove racism is a problem in the US? was the guy even racially motivated?

It's not just that the white guy killed an unarmed black kid for no good reason other than that he thought he was "suspicious" simply because he was black (although that is bad enough in itself).

It's that the police is doing absolutely NOTHING about it that is the main problem.

[john9blue]

yeah, that guy sounds like a psycho.

but why does one incident prove racism is a problem in the US? was the guy even racially motivated?

It's not just that the white guy killed an unarmed black kid for no good reason other than that he thought he was "suspicious" simply because he was black (although that is bad enough in itself).

It's that the police is doing absolutely NOTHING about it that is the main problem.

oh i see.

so you're not saying that one guy is racist

you're saying that an entire police force is racist

that makes much more sense

[natty dread]

Another piece of indomitable logic from john.

You go girl!

[patches70]

It's not just that the white Hispanic guy killed an unarmed black kid for no good reason other than that he thought he was "suspicious" simply because he was black (although that is bad enough in itself).

It's that the police is doing absolutely NOTHING about it that is the main problem.

FYP

And in regards to the case, the investigation is ongoing. The guy could end up being arrested.

It looks like a case of a guy on neighborhood watch (such watches are encouraged by virtually every police department in the US BTW) sees someone he doesn't know. Confronts the stranger, stranger takes offense, words are said, a fight breaks out and stranger ends up shot.

The police department doesn't have evidence that it wasn't self defense by the shooter. The shooter (IMO) is a few beers short of six pack but if the kid was wailing on him of course he's gonna shoot.
The police department sent everything they have on the case to the Attorney General (including the 911 recordings) and the US Justice Department is looking into the case as well.

He might get arrested or it might be found that it was self defense. Time will tell I'd imagine. There were witnesses that collaborated some of what the shooter said happened. So who knows.
You know who doesn't know what happened that night? The mother of the victim. She seems convinced it was murder and dismisses any thought of self defense on the shooter's part but she can't know that for sure. She can only suspect. All around, it's a bad thing regardless and I can completely understand and sympathize how she feels.

And as for vigilante groups and racism, a certain militant black organization has threatened to come on down to Florida and seek justice of their own. All talk I'd like to think. But who knows. This drama is far from over.

[john9blue]

Another piece of indomitable logic from john.

You go girl!

hah, thanks. i will try this strategy out if i ever find myself unable to counter someone's line of reasoning.

"sarcastically acknowledge that their logic is amazing, implying that it's actually not, even though you know that it actually is"

noted!

[rdsrds2120]

The whole situation is bananas.

"So we know that the cop who investigated the Trayvon Martin murder has a history of racial problems. We know that one of the cops changed a witness’s testimony. We know that Zimmerman fired a warning shot, and that Martin begged for his life (actual witness testimonies). We also know that the police lied about Zimmerman’s criminal record initially. We know that Zimmerman has a history of being a self-appointed vigilante. And most importantly, we know that Martin was unarmed and could never pose a credible threat to a man who had 100 pounds and a gun on him.

And yet, the police think it was self-defense, and Zimmerman is still not yet detained.

This is not an isolated case; this is what institutionalized racism looks like."

-rd

[natty dread]

It looks like a case of a guy on neighborhood watch (such watches are encouraged by virtually every police department in the US BTW) sees someone he doesn't know. Confronts the stranger, stranger takes offense, words are said, a fight breaks out and stranger ends up shot.

The kid lived in the area the guy was supposedly watching. He was going home after buying candy for his little brother.

And no, a "fight" didn't break out. I don't know where you're getting this from.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/1 ... tml?ref=tw

From this it appears that the guy started chasing the kid, who ran away because some crazy guy suddenly starts chasing him with a gun in hand. Then, when the guy finally caught the kid, he was begging for his life, clearly not a danger for anyone, and the guy just shot him in cold blood.

This is a damn clear hate crime if I've ever seen one.

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman tells the 911 operator. "He's just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he's coming toward me. He's got his hand in his waistband. Something's wrong with him."

Zimmerman described Martin as wearing a hoodie and sweatpants or jeans. He continues: "He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Can we get an officer over here?"

"These assholes always get away," he says to the operator. Zimmerman is then heard giving directions to the dispatcher. "Shit, he's running," Zimmerman says.

"Are you following him?" the dispatcher asks.

"Yes," Zimmerman responds.

"We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher says.

In other recordings, callers tell the 911 dispatcher that someone has been shot. One person tells the dispatcher that two guys were wrestling behind his back porch and that one of them was yelling for help. Then the male caller stammers in shock. "I'm pretty sure the guy is dead ... Oh, my God! ... The black guy looks like he's been shot and he's dead."

"The guy on top has a white T-shirt," another caller said.

"Is he on top of someone?" the operator asks.

"Mmmhmmm," a female caller responds.

Yet another caller says, "Someone was screaming 'Help! help! help!' Then I heard a gunshot."

One caller, a teenage boy, said that as he was walking his dog, "I saw a man laying on the ground that needed help. He was screaming."

Then, he told the operator, he heard a gunshot and said the screaming stopped.

Martin's family and their attorneys were allowed to hear the audio before it was made public.

"You hear a shot, a clear shot, that we can only assume is a warning shot," said Natalie Jackson, a family attorney. "Then a 17-year-old boy is begging for his life. Everything tells me that that was Trayvon Martin."

Tracy Martin, the teenager's father, broke down crying as he listened to the audio on Friday, the family lawyers said. "My son was crying for help, and he still shot him," Tracy Martin, the teenager's father said, according to Benjamin Crump, another family attorney.

[natty dread]

Another piece of indomitable logic from john.

You go girl!

hah, thanks. i will try this strategy out if i ever find myself unable to counter someone's line of reasoning.

"sarcastically acknowledge that their logic is amazing, implying that it's actually not, even though you know that it actually is"

noted!

Shush john, adults are trying to have a conversation here.

[patches70]

Look, I can copy articles as well. Except mine isn't from the Huff post which has a history of trying to make things appear in certain ways for the consumption of their audience. My article is from the newspaper of the actual town where this happened. Pay particular attention to what I bolded for you-

The Sanford Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, did not instigate the encounter but has received death threats and moved out of his home, his father told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

George Zimmerman, 28, has not been arrested, something that has put him and the Sanford Police Department at the center of a firestorm. Critics say Trayvon, who was visiting family from his home in Miami, was a victim of racial profiling.

Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, delivered a one-page letter to the Sentinel on Thursday, saying that the depiction of his son in the media has been cruel and misleading.

George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says.

"He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever ...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth."

The letter does not provide details about what happened Feb. 26 on a walkway in the gated community where George Zimmerman lives and where Trayvon was visiting. But it does challenge one basic assumption of the family's lawyers: that Zimmerman's intent when he got out of his sport utility vehicle was to confront Trayvon after calling police to report a suspicious person.

"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

Police have released little information about what happened that night and no details about how Trayvon and Zimmerman came to be face to face.

No one disputes that Zimmerman called police from his SUV, then left it and encountered Trayvon on foot as the teenager returned from a 7-Eleven candy run.

Before an officer arrived, Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a fight, according to police, and witnesses heard one or both calling for help, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon once with a 9 mm handgun.

Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.

"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.

He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.

In his letter, Robert Zimmerman wrote that what happened that night was "tragic … and very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family and the entire community have been forever changed."

George Zimmerman has not talked publicly about what happened, his father said, because that's the advice police gave him. Both Zimmerman families have moved out of their homes, at least temporarily, Robert Zimmerman said, because they've received death threats.

Police on Tuesday turned the case over to the State Attorney's Office, saying they did not have evidence to justify George Zimmerman's arrest on a charge of manslaughter.

Prosecutors will now likely spend several weeks studying the case before making a decision on whether to charge Zimmerman.

Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.

"It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it."

The FDLE has received a letter from the State Attorney's Office asking agents to review the case, spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said.

Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

More than 400 people gathered Wednesday at a Sanford church, where black community leaders and Baltimore evangelist Jamal Bryant again demanded that Zimmerman be arrested.

Some of Trayvon's family members are expected to be a news conference this morning called by Orlando attorney Natalie Jackson, who is representing the family.

Another rally is scheduled for Monday outside the Seminole County Courthouse. And a call has been issued for people to rally March 26 during the Sanford City Council meeting.

So, the witness in your article never said who was calling for help. Zimmerman, the shooter, claims he was calling for help.

There is evidence he was in a fight of some kind. Of course one would assume he punched himself in the nose right? There was grass on his back like he had been laying on the ground. The witness saw Zimmerman laying on the ground before the shooting. That kind of debunks that Zimmerman shot the kid while chasing after him doesn't it?

The two got in a fight. Zimmerman shot him.

Should have Zimmerman pursued the kid? Probably not.
Could Zimmerman somehow figured a way to defuse the situation without having to shoot the kid? I don't know. I'd like to think so but I wasn't there.

The kid, who you claim for some reason lived there in the neighborhood, isn't true. The kid lived in Miami and was visiting the area. Zimmerman wouldn't have known him.

Is this case as cut and dry as you and the Huff want to portray it? Hell no.

The fact is none of us here from reading news articles can tell one way or the other what actually happened. The police, the Attorney General have that job. We don't know if Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter from what we read of these articles, only a Court of Law can determine that.

If people were honest with themselves they'd realize that. As for the mother of the victim, I can understand where she is coming from. She lost her son, she wants answers and justice. It's not her job to deal out that justice. Nor is it any of our jobs either.

The authorities will get to the bottom of this. Anyway it goes there is going to be someone who doesn't think it's right. If Zimmerman is let go people will be pissed. If Zimmerman jailed people will be pissed. Even the victims family I'd think as manslaughter won't carry the sentence that the victims family would want.

It's just not as open and shut a case as you seem to think it is because you don't and can't have all the facts. You only have perceptions. In the US a man isn't supposed to be tried in the newspapers though all too often it happens.

I don't know what happened. Maybe Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, maybe he was acting in self defense. At least I can acknowledge that it's impossible to know for sure from the seat any of us are sitting in. What about you?


link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/loc ... 6605.story

[john9blue]

Another piece of indomitable logic from john.

You go girl!

hah, thanks. i will try this strategy out if i ever find myself unable to counter someone's line of reasoning.

"sarcastically acknowledge that their logic is amazing, implying that it's actually not, even though you know that it actually is"

noted!

Shush john, adults are trying to have a conversation here.

i will never understand why people like you will never admit that they are wrong.

there's nothing wrong with making a mistake! nobody here will think less of you just because you made a bad assumption about something.

i'm being completely serious right now btw.

what the hell is wrong with people?

[natty dread]

Another piece of indomitable logic from john.

You go girl!

hah, thanks. i will try this strategy out if i ever find myself unable to counter someone's line of reasoning.

"sarcastically acknowledge that their logic is amazing, implying that it's actually not, even though you know that it actually is"

noted!

Shush john, adults are trying to have a conversation here.

i will never understand why people like you will never admit that they are wrong.

there's nothing wrong with making a mistake! nobody here will think less of you just because you made a bad assumption about something.

i'm being completely serious right now btw.

what the hell is wrong with people?

Haha, you're trolling pretty good. You're learning.

If a 5-year old calls you a doo-doo head, you don't write a 5-page essay to refute him point-by-point. That would be pointless, because hey, 5-year olds. What do they know.

Similarly, when john9blue spews forth some totally irrational garbage that makes no sense whatsoever, it'd be totally pointless to dignify it with a serious response, as if he was making a salient point.

[patches70]

Similarly, when john9blue spews forth some totally irrational garbage that makes no sense whatsoever, it'd be totally pointless to dignify it with a serious response, as if he was making a salient point.

\

How about my response? Am I spouting "irrational garbage"? I'm just looking at what few known facts in the case are and look on the conjecture with a few grains of salt.

All the witnesses that there are have all given statements that are consistent with Zimmerman's account. The cops have turned over the case to the State Attorney office and invited the Justice Department and the FDLE to investigate as well. Are all of them racists as well?

If so, then present your proof that they are. Wanna think the cops are racist, fine, but you'd be hard pressed to prove the US Justice Department are racists. They'll have a look at the actual facts of the case and if they come back "it was self defense", then what? More cries of racism?

[natty dread]

So, the witness in your article never said who was calling for help. Zimmerman, the shooter, claims he was calling for help.

Well of course he would claim that.

One caller, a teenage boy, said that as he was walking his dog, "I saw a man laying on the ground that needed help. He was screaming."

There is evidence he was in a fight of some kind. Of course one would assume he punched himself in the nose right? There was grass on his back like he had been laying on the ground. The witness saw Zimmerman laying on the ground before the shooting. That kind of debunks that Zimmerman shot the kid while chasing after him doesn't it?

Yeah, pretty flimsy "evidence" there. The guy chased after a 17-year old with a gun in hand even after the police told him not to. The guy has a history of vigilantism and violence. The kid was unarmed, the guy wasn't. It's pretty obvious that Zimmerman assaulted the kid, and if anyone was trying to defend himself it was the kid. Before he got brutally murdered for no reason.

I don't even get why you're trying to defend this guy. Someone who shoots an unarmed kid is a horrible asshole in my book, no matter what the circumstances.

The two got in a fight. Zimmerman shot him.

Translation: Zimmerman murdered an unarmed kid.

Should have Zimmerman pursued the kid? Probably not.

"Probably" not? So you think it's potentially reasonable to pursue an unarmed kid even after the police tells you not to in the phone?

Could Zimmerman somehow figured a way to defuse the situation without having to shoot the kid? I don't know. I'd like to think so but I wasn't there.

Yeah, how about don't shoot that unarmed kid who did nothing wrong.

The kid, who you claim for some reason lived there in the neighborhood, isn't true.

Yeah, I concede I was wrong about that. Still, they were visiting the area and had a legitimate reason to be there.

Zimmerman wouldn't have known him.

Which is a legitimate reason to assume he's a criminal? Because, a young black man in a rich neighbourhood... he's just got to be up to no good, right?

The authorities will get to the bottom of this.

Yeah because you can always trust the authorities & police to be honest and impartial...

[john9blue]

i will never understand why people like you will never admit that they are wrong.

there's nothing wrong with making a mistake! nobody here will think less of you just because you made a bad assumption about something.

i'm being completely serious right now btw.

what the hell is wrong with people?

Haha, you're trolling pretty good. You're learning.

If a 5-year old calls you a doo-doo head, you don't write a 5-page essay to refute him point-by-point. That would be pointless, because hey, 5-year olds. What do they know.

Similarly, when john9blue spews forth some totally irrational garbage that makes no sense whatsoever, it'd be totally pointless to dignify it with a serious response, as if he was making a salient point.

intriguing!

so all you have to do is convince yourself that your opponent is wrong; that way, you don't have to give his viewpoints any serious consideration, which might lead to you changing your own viewpoints and realizing that he is not wrong. it's a self-affirming cycle. very clever. i know a few people like this IRL.

[patches70]

The kid lived in the area the guy was supposedly watching.

Not true at all. The victim lived in Miami, in Dade County near the tip of Florida. The shooting happened in Sanford, in Seminole county which is located in the central region of the state of Florida. The victim was visiting.

And no, a "fight" didn't break out. I don't know where you're getting this from.

From the reports from news articles where the police disclosed they found evidence that the shooter had been in a fight presumably with the victim. Eyewitness accounts reported a fight between two unknown individuals at the time of the shooting. The articles you've been reading must have omitted those items....

From this it appears that the guy started chasing the kid, who ran away because some crazy guy suddenly starts chasing him with a gun in hand. Then, when the guy finally caught the kid, he was begging for his life, clearly not a danger for anyone, and the guy just shot him in cold blood.

Where did you get that from? All the witnesses who saw or heard anything have all claimed they couldn't tell who was saying what. Someone was yelling for help. Zimmerman claims he was shouting for help but no one came.
Zimmerman was found with a bloody nose and evidence of being in a physical altercation, again presumably with the victim.

This is a damn clear hate crime if I've ever seen one.

No it's not. Maybe you should look up the definition of "clear". Nothing is clear from any of the newspaper reports. There is plenty of more information that is not public.

Yeah because you can always trust the authorities & police to be honest and impartial...

Yeah, because we can always trust that family of the shooting victim will judge fair and impartially.....

Holy cow, don't you realize that while you cry out against vigilante justice you are advocating the same for the shooter?
Do you see the hypocrisy?
It's the police's job, the Attorney general's job to see this through. And that's what is happening. The police have found no evidence of this being a hate crime where the shooter singled out the victim because of race. All evidence that the police have found it seems supports that it was self defense. Was it self defense? How the hell could I know.
Was it pure and simple murder based on racism? How the hell can you be so certain?

Well of course he would claim that.

And of course you'd just dismiss that and not bother to look at evidence supporting the shooter's claim. Would you really suppress evidence just because you think this must be a hate crime? Why would you do that?

Translation: Zimmerman murdered an unarmed kid.

Natty dread-
[ ] Understands the definition of murder
[ ] Understands the definition of manslaughter
[X] Doesn't know the difference between murder and manslaughter

I don't even get why you're trying to defend this guy.

I'm not defending the guy, that's the job of his attorney. I'm trying to get you to see and understand that you cannot possibly know all the facts of the case and thus your instant assumption of racism and hate crime is premature at best.
I'm trying to get you to understand that your original post, the letter from the family of the murder victim, is only one side of the story and you don't even know the story to even begin to make any type of reasoned judgment.

Of course you can have an opinion, but when talking about legal matters, opinion counts for jack shit. Facts are what must be looked at. Facts which are sorely lacking in any source you can find (or me) and thus cannot jump straight to the conclusion that this must be a race related killing and a hate crime.

It's a god damn terrible situation all around. It's bad for the families of both the victim and the shooter. If you could get past your judgmental prejudice you'd see that. But I hold little hope of you looking at this in any rational manner.

[natty dread]

Not true at all. The victim lived in Miami

I already told you I was wrong about that. What more do you want?

From the reports from news articles where the police disclosed they found evidence that the shooter had been in a fight presumably with the victim. Eyewitness accounts reported a fight between two unknown individuals at the time of the shooting. The articles you've been reading must have omitted those items....

The articles you have been reading may have omitted the items that the police have tried to get at least one witness to change his story. When a witness told police he heard a teenager crying help, the police told the witness "no no, it was Zimmerman crying for help". I think that's illegal, but I'm not an expert of US legal system...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-w ... 2TVW3miYbQ

Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.

Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.

Witnesses told ABC News they heard Zimmerman pronounce aloud to the breathless residents watching the violence unfold "it was self-defense," and place the gun on the ground.

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

Where did you get that from? All the witnesses who saw or heard anything have all claimed they couldn't tell who was saying what. Someone was yelling for help.

See above.

Holy cow, don't you realize that while you cry out against vigilante justice you are advocating the same for the shooter?

Oh, I see. Calling for the shooter to be arrested and tried is "advocating vigilante justice"?

Huh. Who knew.

The police have found no evidence of this being a hate crime

There's evidence to suggest that some police who are involved in the case have acted inappropriately, and tried to get the witnesses to change their statements. Possibly due to racism. Wouldn't be the first time something like that happens. Remember that young black guy who was presumably innocent who was executed in Georgia a few months back? Where the police has pressured the witnesses to testify to his guilt, even though they hadn't actually seen the guy, and then he was denied a new trial regardless?

[Aradhus]

It's time to bring this thread back.

So, racism is not a problem in the US?

Why then, when a 17-year old black person is brutally murdered by a white person, the police does nothing because the white person is an "upstanding member of the community"?

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecu ... on-martin#

On February 26, our son Trayvon Martin was shot and killed as he walked to a family member's home from a convenience store where he had just bought some candy. He was only 17 years-old.

Trayvon's killer, George Zimmerman, admitted to police that he shot Trayvon in the chest. Zimmerman, the community's self appointed "neighborhood watch leader," called the police to report a suspicious person when he saw Travyon, a young black man, walking from the store. But Zimmerman still hasn't been charged for murdering our son.

Trayvon was our hero. At the age 9, Trayvon pulled his father from a burning kitchen, saving his life. He loved sports and horseback riding. At only 17 he had a bright future ahead of him with dreams of attending college and becoming an aviation mechanic. Now that’s all gone.

When Zimmerman reported Trayvon to the police, they told him not to confront him. But he did anyway. All we know about what happened next is that our 17 year-old son, who was completely unarmed, was shot and killed.

It's been nearly two weeks and the Sanford Police have refused to arrest George Zimmerman. In their public statements, they even go so far as to stand up for the killer - saying he's "a college grad" who took a class in criminal justice.

Please join us in calling on Norman Wolfinger, Florida's 18th District State's Attorney, to investigate my son's murder and prosecute George Zimmerman for the shooting and killing of Trayvon Martin.

Dude I totally posted this story elsewhere in the forum. Reposting a story that somebody else has posted requires some sort of remuneration, also maybe acknowledgment of original service by said member firster poster.

[natty dread]

Dude I totally posted this story elsewhere in the forum.

pics || didn't happen

[patches70]

I already told you I was wrong about that. What more do you want?

I already had it typed when you posted your "mistake". So, what else might you be wrong about?

Calling for the shooter to be arrested and tried is "advocating vigilante justice"

How about an investigation at least. You object to that? You want the shooter arrested and tried based on the your post of the letter from the victim's family. That's pretty far outside the legal way things are done.

One thing, this isn't murder. At worse it's criminal negligence or imperfect self defense, both of which are manslaughter charges. It's not a murder. Not in the legal sense at least. So it seems at least from available information.

There's evidence to suggest that some police who are involved in the case have acted inappropriately, and tried to get the witnesses to change their statements. Possibly due to racism. Wouldn't be the first time something like that happens. Remember that young black guy who was presumably innocent who was executed in Georgia a few months back? Where the police has pressured the witnesses to testify to his guilt, even though they hadn't actually seen the guy, and then he was denied a new trial regardless?

Georgia = Florida? Seriously?
Ok, I'm confused now, you were claiming that the shooter committed a hate crime (your words).
Now it's the cops? Ok, like I said, you can believe the cops are racists but the investigation has been turned over to the State Attorney with the Justice Department (due to the publicity of the case soon to be involved) and the FDLE. Are they racists as well?

In any case, the police won't be railroading anyone or falsely accusing anyone. They turned over all the evidence to higher powers. The cops don't matter anymore. Even if they were racists and on the side of the shooter (who is Hispanic, go figure, the racists like the Hispanics now) it won't keep the Attorney General from going through the evidence. They'll even interview the witnesses again and if they were "corrected" then they can fix those statements.

Also, ABC news was also caught in a blatant lie in regards to at least one witness. ABC news reported that the police ignored the witness and aired such but the police not only tried several times to get the statement, ended up getting the statement which supported the shooter's story. Even though ABC news reported otherwise.
Like I've maintained, there are two sides (at least) to the story.

Yes, it's those "unnamed sources" again. I truly hope that in your country you can't be convicted on the basis of "unnamed sources". That goes against any semblance of a fair and impartial investigation and justice don't ya know.

Regardless, you already have your preconceived notions and you refuse to abandon those notions to the point that you'd ignore anything that goes against your beliefs. Hmm, what type of persons does that sound like?
You cannot say with any certainty (which you've already claimed certainty on this) anything of any substance at all.
You can't show any racism involved with any degree of truth. You only have at best third hand or further knowledge of the case. You have only conjecture, rumor and innuendo.
Yet you still believe "Racism".

You are a hopeless case. I pity anyone who might find themselves with you on their jury. I've made my points, believe what you will. Is the shooter a racist? Are the cops racists? I have no idea and neither do you.
The difference between us is that I can at least admit what I don't know where as you make up your mind on things you don't know and assume them as fact.