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stahrgazer wrote:GabonX wrote:Out of curiosity, what lies, specifically, are you referring to? I find it difficult to believe that you have had enough exposure to hold an informed opinion regarding the things of which you speak. It is impossible for you to hold a rational opinion on Rush Limbaugh for example, without having ever listened to his show. Sadly, I suspect you form your opinions based on filtered sources, not unlike most people within the United States.
Obviously Universal Health Care would be a great thing, but such a thing can not be achieved without paying a price. Many of us believe that the price being asked (for some it is the money, for others the invasion of privacy, and most importantly to me the infringement on personal liberty) is not worth it. In addition, the idea that it is, or should be the role of government to care for all citizens is contested in and of itself.
I'm curious, what underlying principle causes you to think that this is the case?
"Infringement on personal liberty" is one lie I can think of. "Invasion of privacy" is another. Under this plan, no one will be forced into a specific type of healthcare, if he or she can afford something else. For me, who has no healthcare through work, I can hardly consider it an invasion of my privacy for the government to realize that even those people who no longer benefit from employer-provided health care, might require a doctor's care. How does it infringe my personal liberty to have some sort of insurance against injury or illness? How does it infringe YOUR personal liberty to have medicaid/medicare type plans extended?
The only leftover is "money". Will it cost more in the long run, or will it cost less? Depending on which side of the issue you favor, you may say yes or you may say no, but the point is, that's debatable. Some economists, even economists who are not pro-Democrat, indicate that our current healthcare system requires Americans to pay too much for far too little. The weblinks I provided below show how in international ratings, we spend the most of our gross national product for healthcare, by dollars AND by percentage; to achieve only the 37th greatest benefit, less than some third world countries.
Given that gross overexpenditure for little return, "No change" is foolish.
Capitalism is based on competition. Currently, the insurance companies band together to establish their own rates. It's a grand old "buddy-buddy" system that, left uncheck as it has been, has resulted in Americans paying far too much and getting far too little in exchange, with quite a chunk of our population getting nothing at all in exchange. In that perspective, Obama's plan isn't "socialist" it's government-aided capitalism; the government will step in to provide insurance companies some competition so that they will be required, by the laws of supply and demand that Capitalism works with, to lower their rates in order to keep clients.
There is even an indirect precedence. Launching of satellites is now a combination of government and private business. Government influence keeps competition honestly working to reduce costs, while the private sector still profits.
PLAYER57832 wrote:In fairness, I believe the "invasion of personnal privacy" comes from some of the provisions for electronic record keeping, etc.
However, the plain fact is that is happening because doctors cannot afford to have stacks of physical papers and because people go to multiple doctors, etc.
Right now, your information is not private if you have insurance. Its just they, and often the doctor consider it proprietary and so they often won't release information unless it is required or benefits them. My husband' chiropractor, for example split from his partner. My husband had only ever seen that chiropractor, but we got a "nice little note" telling us that the records were the property of the one who remained and would not be released. I had a similar issue when I was pregnant.
stahrgazer wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:In fairness, I believe the "invasion of personnal privacy" comes from some of the provisions for electronic record keeping, etc.
However, the plain fact is that is happening because doctors cannot afford to have stacks of physical papers and because people go to multiple doctors, etc.
Right now, your information is not private if you have insurance. Its just they, and often the doctor consider it proprietary and so they often won't release information unless it is required or benefits them. My husband' chiropractor, for example split from his partner. My husband had only ever seen that chiropractor, but we got a "nice little note" telling us that the records were the property of the one who remained and would not be released. I had a similar issue when I was pregnant.
Ah, yes; I also had difficulty obtaining medical records for use in a lawsuit against the person who hit my vehicle; it got straightened out, but they still would not release my records to me, only to my attorney (go figure!)
However, as to the "electronic records," a few months back, on some TV ad, GE was advertising their innovative electronic program for health recordkeeping.
The computer age is coming, with or without every American citizen having healthcare coverage.
Personally, I'd rather have healthcare so I have some records, even if they are going to be on computers. Plus.. if they're on computers, it won't cost me a dollar a page to get them to my attorney or next care provider.
PLAYER57832 wrote:stahrgazer wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:In fairness, I believe the "invasion of personnal privacy" comes from some of the provisions for electronic record keeping, etc.
However, the plain fact is that is happening because doctors cannot afford to have stacks of physical papers and because people go to multiple doctors, etc.
Right now, your information is not private if you have insurance. Its just they, and often the doctor consider it proprietary and so they often won't release information unless it is required or benefits them. My husband' chiropractor, for example split from his partner. My husband had only ever seen that chiropractor, but we got a "nice little note" telling us that the records were the property of the one who remained and would not be released. I had a similar issue when I was pregnant.
Ah, yes; I also had difficulty obtaining medical records for use in a lawsuit against the person who hit my vehicle; it got straightened out, but they still would not release my records to me, only to my attorney (go figure!)
However, as to the "electronic records," a few months back, on some TV ad, GE was advertising their innovative electronic program for health recordkeeping.
The computer age is coming, with or without every American citizen having healthcare coverage.
Personally, I'd rather have healthcare so I have some records, even if they are going to be on computers. Plus.. if they're on computers, it won't cost me a dollar a page to get them to my attorney or next care provider.
One added part, a biggie is that by allowing collection of all this data in one area, it will be far easier to track wich treatments are effective under which circumstances. Right now, all that sort of information is collected seperately by each insurer and is "proprietary".
Phatscotty wrote:the devil always appears with the face of an angel. the gov't has a 100% failure rate of doing what it said it would do. I know you don't beleive that crap
Spazz Arcane wrote:If birds could swim and fish could fly I would awaken in the morning to the sturgeons cry. If fish could fly and birds could swim I'd still use worms to fish for them.
saxitoxin wrote:I'm on Team GabonX
PLAYER57832 wrote:Phatscotty wrote:the devil always appears with the face of an angel. the gov't has a 100% failure rate of doing what it said it would do. I know you don't beleive that crap
Oh, gee, yep... we live in a war torn country with no schools, no water, , only dirt tracks for roads, no mail service, no parks or forest, no ...
hmmm, I guess that "failure rate" is not quite 100%.
GabonX wrote:Well what about Governments in general then, how is the record in that regard?
It comes down to whether or not you think you are better off caring for yourself, or having someone else care for you...
Phatscotty wrote:straight up player, stay in the kindergarten league.
Phatscotty wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:Phatscotty wrote:the devil always appears with the face of an angel. the gov't has a 100% failure rate of doing what it said it would do. I know you don't beleive that crap
Oh, gee, yep... we live in a war torn country with no schools, no water, , only dirt tracks for roads, no mail service, no parks or forest, no ...
hmmm, I guess that "failure rate" is not quite 100%.
wtd do you live? i have to wait in traffic every single F'ing day cuz there is road work everywhere, and the water smells funny, and my post office closed. Welcome to reality. read a fucking newspaper dude
PLAYER57832 wrote:One added part, a biggie is that by allowing collection of all this data in one area, it will be far easier to track wich treatments are effective under which circumstances. Right now, all that sort of information is collected seperately by each insurer and is "proprietary".
thegreekdog wrote:
In sum, instead of any relevant discussion of these issues, opponents to the healthcare bill are likened to crazy people, hatemongers, fearmongers, or idiots.
While this is politically expedient, it doesn't bode well for your seemingly holier-than-though response to Gabon, which can be seen as rather hypocritical.
luns101 wrote:The NHS does not adequately treat their own citizens when it comes to mental health...I have proof
Is this really the path we want to go down, America?
luns101 wrote:The NHS does not adequately treat their own citizens when it comes to mental health...I have proof
Is this really the path we want to go down, America?
Timminz wrote:Link"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.
"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]
edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?
Frigidus wrote:Timminz wrote:Link"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.
"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]
edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?
You're just missing the [/url] and whatever you want the hyperlink to say. Alternatively you can just skip the url bit altogether. http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNe ... 0C20090814
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
Neoteny wrote:Frigidus wrote:Timminz wrote:"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.
"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.
edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?
You're just missing the [/url] and whatever you want the hyperlink to say. Alternatively you can just skip the url bit altogether. http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNe ... 0C20090814
No, see, he has the [/url] bit at the end. I wonder if there is a limit to how long url text can be.
Timminz wrote:[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE57C40C20090814]"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.
"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]
edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?
Timminz wrote:[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE57C40C20090814]"The very wealthy can afford whatever they want, the very poor get it through aid, but the working and the middle-class have to struggle to pay insurance," said Ritz, who worked as a police officer in Chicago for 28 years.
"I'm very lucky to live near enough to Mexico to get good healthcare at a reasonable price," he added.[/url]
edit- can anyone figure out why the link is not working?
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
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