Is God really Just?

[jay_a2j]

Jay you've been pretty funny lately.

I feel that humor is one of my strong characteristics. As well as sarcasm. (which really isn't a good quality)

[joecoolfrog]

Jay you've been pretty funny lately.

I feel that humor is one of my strong characteristics. As well as sarcasm. (which really isn't a good quality)

Hee Hee so all your ramblings have been a joke, thats a relief

[heavycola]

Yes, he is perfect and just. He gave us free will and look what we've done with it?

The point is, though, that god made human nature too. God made us in such a way that we would sin, reject him, pray to zeus, allah, baal, shiva, marduk, satan... all because of the human nature that god created.
And, because god knows everything, he knew when he created human nature that this is how we were going to turn out.


So it's all god's fault, and we still get punished for it.

[suggs]

Now thats a geezer i can respect! What a...devil

[suggs]

sorry I didn't realize I had to explain what I considered to be common sense.

Welcome to the forums, my son.

[jay_a2j]

Yes, he is perfect and just. He gave us free will and look what we've done with it?

The point is, though, that god made human nature too. God made us in such a way that we would sin, reject him, pray to zeus, allah, baal, shiva, marduk, satan... all because of the human nature that god created.
And, because god knows everything, he knew when he created human nature that this is how we were going to turn out.


So it's all god's fault, and we still get punished for it.

Well when you are standing before God giving an account for every sin you ever committed, because you rejected the payment for that sin, yelling, "But God! You created me and it's your fault!" isn't going to work. And God will show you, that your line of thinking is wrong. But then again, at that time you would already know that.

[suggs]

If I end up standing before God, I'll be praying I packed a very brown pair of underpants.

[heavycola]

Yes, he is perfect and just. He gave us free will and look what we've done with it?

The point is, though, that god made human nature too. God made us in such a way that we would sin, reject him, pray to zeus, allah, baal, shiva, marduk, satan... all because of the human nature that god created.
And, because god knows everything, he knew when he created human nature that this is how we were going to turn out.


So it's all god's fault, and we still get punished for it.

Well when you are standing before God giving an account for every sin you ever committed, because you rejected the payment for that sin, yelling, "But God! You created me and it's your fault!" isn't going to work. And God will show you, that your line of thinking is wrong. But then again, at that time you would already know that.

well if someone other than god could show me why my line of thinking is wrong, i'd appreciate it.

[jay_a2j]

well if someone other than god could show me why my line of thinking is wrong, i'd appreciate it.

I'm sure many have tried.

[MeDeFe]

well if someone other than god could show me why my line of thinking is wrong, i'd appreciate it.

I'm sure many have tried.

Well, maybe you could try again, step by step, because I don't see why it's wrong either. If god created us and our nature, fully knowing what he was doing and how it would work out (false idols, sinning, atheists, theory of evolution, etc.), he is ultimately responsible.

[Ray Rider]

well if someone other than god could show me why my line of thinking is wrong, i'd appreciate it.

I'm sure many have tried.

Well, maybe you could try again, step by step, because I don't see why it's wrong either. If god created us and our nature, fully knowing what he was doing and how it would work out (false idols, sinning, atheists, theory of evolution, etc.), he is ultimately responsible.

Parents have kids knowing full well that their children will sometimes hurt themselves, hurt other people, and be hurt by others, whether emotionally or physically. Does that mean that the parents are "ultimately responsible" for whatever happens?

[Juan_Bottom]

well if someone other than god could show me why my line of thinking is wrong, i'd appreciate it.

I'm sure many have tried.

Well, maybe you could try again, step by step, because I don't see why it's wrong either. If god created us and our nature, fully knowing what he was doing and how it would work out (false idols, sinning, atheists, theory of evolution, etc.), he is ultimately responsible.

Word. I'm with HEAVYCOLA on this one.

That parents analogy has been broken before, but I'm not sure which thread. Maybe MEDEFE or COLA does.

[jay_a2j]

well if someone other than god could show me why my line of thinking is wrong, i'd appreciate it.

I'm sure many have tried.

Well, maybe you could try again, step by step, because I don't see why it's wrong either. If god created us and our nature, fully knowing what he was doing and how it would work out (false idols, sinning, atheists, theory of evolution, etc.), he is ultimately responsible.

God, creator of the universe had Angels to worship Him. But they had not been created with free will. And it wasn't until Satan(Lucifer) rebelled, that God gave them free will. 1/3 of the Angels in heaven sided with Satan and were cast out of Heaven.

Then God created man, because he wanted to be loved by choice rather than there be no alternative.
Initially, man was without sin and with the gift of choice (free will). Then using that free will, they chose to disobey God in eating the forbidden fruit. Sin enters the world. In order for us to live with God, we must be without sin. How can this be achieved since all men sin? God told the Jews to sacrifice "unblemished" lambs for the remission of their sins. Stating, "there must be the shedding of blood for the remission of sin". That was, until Jesus came and died as the FINAL sacrifice for sin.

Do we still sin? Yes. But it is OUR choice to rebel against God. He knew that many would rebel but He desired to be loved by choice. And no matter how "unfair" we think this is, it is just. For God has provided a way, to be reconciled with Him. The ball is now in our court.

[FabledIntegral]

well if someone other than god could show me why my line of thinking is wrong, i'd appreciate it.

I'm sure many have tried.

Well, maybe you could try again, step by step, because I don't see why it's wrong either. If god created us and our nature, fully knowing what he was doing and how it would work out (false idols, sinning, atheists, theory of evolution, etc.), he is ultimately responsible.

God, creator of the universe had Angels to worship Him. But they had not been created with free will. And it wasn't until Satan(Lucifer) rebelled, that God gave them free will. 1/3 of the Angels in heaven sided with Satan and were cast out of Heaven.

Then God created man, because he wanted to be loved by choice rather than there be no alternative.
Initially, man was without sin and with the gift of choice (free will). Then using that free will, they chose to disobey God in eating the forbidden fruit. Sin enters the world. In order for us to live with God, we must be without sin. How can this be achieved since all men sin? God told the Jews to sacrifice "unblemished" lambs for the remission of their sins. Stating, "there must be the shedding of blood for the remission of sin". That was, until Jesus came and died as the FINAL sacrifice for sin.

Do we still sin? Yes. But it is OUR choice to rebel against God. He knew that many would rebel but He desired to be loved by choice. And no matter how "unfair" we think this is, it is just. For God has provided a way, to be reconciled with Him. The ball is now in our court.

Your explanation hardly makes any sense. If man was without sin how did they disobey God in the first place? If man was without knowledge - which the Bible clearly states is what the humans had, then how should they have even known it was wrong to disobey God in teh first place? Why am I being blamed for what two others did? I assure you - put me in the same situation right now, and I'd listen to every single thing God said. Another point - why did God wait to bring Jesus to the earth? What was the purpose of even having the lambs? Jesus couldn't have come sooner? Etc.

This entire "desired to be loved by choice," not only makes him sound selfish (lmao PRAISE ME MINIONS OR SUFFER ETERNAL DAMNATION), but still makes him unjust, or if not unjust, cruel. For his OWN pleasure of wanting to be loved, he created things he knew that would be condemned eternally.

They are his creation - he knew some wouldn't love them because of the circumstance he put us in, and still decided to create us! He knew that some would rebel, but created us anyways.

[Juan_Bottom]

WORD to FABLEDINTEGRAL, but this part didn't jive with me either.

God, creator of the universe had Angels to worship Him. But they had not been created with free will. And it wasn't until Satan(Lucifer) rebelled, that God gave them free will. 1/3 of the Angels in heaven sided with Satan and were cast out of Heaven.

If they didn't have free will, then how did Lucifer rebel? (I'm sure there is an explination, I just want to hear it.)

Plus, creating beings just to worship you does sound like a hugely pompus thing to do.

[jay_a2j]

WORD to FABLEDINTEGRAL, but this part didn't jive with me either.

God, creator of the universe had Angels to worship Him. But they had not been created with free will. And it wasn't until Satan(Lucifer) rebelled, that God gave them free will. 1/3 of the Angels in heaven sided with Satan and were cast out of Heaven.

If they didn't have free will, then how did Lucifer rebel? (I'm sure there is an explination, I just want to hear it.)

Plus, creating beings just to worship you does sound like a hugely pompus thing to do.

We can only speculate. If Angels were without free will and at some point Satan thought, "I want to rule the Heavens and be god", thus sinning. God must have given the thought of rebelling to Lucifer and then Lucifer acted on it. Instead of dismissing the thought and continue to worship God. This is speculation and we don't actually know how this came to be.

He created us to worship Him, He is God and worthy of out praise! But he created humans with a unique freedom. Freedom of choice. So, God won't make us worship Him, but then we have no right to complain when he says "Depart from me, I never knew you!" If we chose to live our earthly life without him, we are also choosing to live eternity without Him.

[Juan_Bottom]

He created us to worship Him, He is God and worthy of out praise! But he created humans with a unique freedom. Freedom of choice. So, God won't make us worship Him, but then we have no right to complain when he says "Depart from me, I never knew you!" If we chose to live our earthly life without him, we are also choosing to live eternity without Him.

You don't get hung up in logic too much do you Jay?

And how come it's alway's a bunch of Atheists against only Jay? Where the crap are the other Christian philosophers?

[jay_a2j]

He created us to worship Him, He is God and worthy of out praise! But he created humans with a unique freedom. Freedom of choice. So, God won't make us worship Him, but then we have no right to complain when he says "Depart from me, I never knew you!" If we chose to live our earthly life without him, we are also choosing to live eternity without Him.

You don't get hung up in logic too much do you Jay?

And how come it's alway's a bunch of Atheists against only Jay? Where the crap are the other Christian philosophers?

Your logic is billions and billions of times inferior to God. It's not going to work. You will not be able to talk your way out of eternal damnation. "But I'm Juan_Bottom! Perhaps you've never heard of me God?" and God might say to you, "I know the exact number of times your heart beat while you lived on the Earth, I know how many times you inhaled and how many times you exhaled, as well as giving you the breath in order for which to breath in the first place. How is it that you can question me?"


Second question, I don't know.

[Juan_Bottom]

Jay I ment that you've already said basically that, and it has already been answered.

But, I am in the wrong here. I keep forgeting that Logic Dictates there is a God.
But at least then he must know that he's a douche. Because I would think so, and he would know everyone of my thoughts.

[PLAYER57832]

Alright, been out a while, so the debate has migrated.

But, to get back to the original question "Is God just?" The biggest problem in answering is that you first have to define "justice" ... and that pretty well sums up the issue. You see, your idea of "justice" and mine likely differ. Our combined ideas, even those things about which we agree, will likely differ considerably from the ideas of justice in some Asian, African and Mideastern groups. In some areas, just to point out one example, "justice" means killing a daughter who is raped. I hope no one here thinks THAT way!!!! (and I doubt you do!!!).

Even if we narrow things down to the "western/European" idea of justice (narrow, though I do have those values), there is still much dissent.

GOD's justice supercedes and overrides ALL of that. It is not always easy for us, sometimes plain impossible for us to understand. We understand rules ...the rules that were laid out. Christians & Jews believe those rules were laid out for our benefit. Christians tend to emphasize "obey now for a better life later". Jews emphasize "obey now because it is the will of God" ... but there are a lot of similarities once you get into the "realities" and "nitty gritty" of the two faiths. Makes sense, since the one arises from the other.

Okay, so Christians ( and Jews and Muslims) tend to believe that God is just, but that God's justice does not mean no suffering, no harm, no ills. We believe that God set up this world, not looking at individuals, but looking at the whole.

This comes down to the essence of free will. To be truly free means you have the chance to make good choices ... and to make bad choices. Humans chose bad choices, early on. BUT, God gave us 2 gifts. First, the law. That provided a path toward righteousness, rules that will make us live better lives overall. Christians then believe that God gave us Christ, as the ultimate sacrafice so that all humanity now has the ability to be saved. Whether they choose to take that chance or not is up to humanity.

Have you ever read all the instances in the Bible where Jesus healed people? What was it He said to them each and every time? He said, "Your FAITH has healed you", in other words faith in God is a prerequisite to healing (by God).

Uh... sort of. He said that with the faith of a mustard seed you could move mountains.

The problem with saying "faith healed me" is that there are many good and deserving people out there who have not been so healed.

Does faith heal? Most Christians believe that God heals through many ways. Some people put extreme store in particular aspects .. laying on hands, for example... and some even believe that having/showing this "ability" is proof of a higher spirituality. BUT, the Bible tends to say that such thinking is arrogance. Remember Jesus admonishing the Apostles that had they they faith of a mustard seed , they could move moutains?
Most Christian today take that as a partial illustration of how little we really understand. how little the apostles understood of what was actually happening.

That gets back to FabledIntegral's questions:

Your explanation hardly makes any sense. If man was without sin how did they disobey God in the first place? If man was without knowledge - which the Bible clearly states is what the humans had, then how should they have even known it was wrong to disobey God in teh first place?

This is close, but not my church's teaching.

Does an infant sin? Does a dog sin? Generally, we say "no". Why? because you have to know that what you are doing is wrong for it to be sin. Neither animals, nor babies really have that capacity.

When Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were given certainin structions to follow. "you may not eat of the tree of knowledge" was the main one, some say the only one. They were, humans were, before that time, like the animals and the baby. Able to think, but not to "sin" in the sense that we think today. They took what they needed, etc. It just was. When Eve ate of the tree, she and Adam gained knowledge of sin. Only AFTER eating the fruit did we gain knowledge that, for example, we were naked without clothing.

Later, When Cain slew Abel, then sin came into humanity.

(and PLEASE note I and the vast majority of Christians DO believe that Evolution and Genesis are consistant. we may argue the details, but we accept both)

Why am I being blamed for what two others did? I assure you - put me in the same situation right now, and I'd listen to every single thing God said.

This is God's justice, not human justice. But you have to also understand that these events are discussing the very creation of humanity. Us becoming who we are. In that sense, it was not "just" Adam and Eve who gained knowledge ... it was not "just" Cain who slew Abel. These are illustrations of what happened for humanity as a whole.

Now, most Christians DO take this to mean individual people named Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel. I am not disagreeing with that. What I am saying is that we are descended from them and carry with us the things that they brought to themselves ... and to us. We ALL now therefore sin, BECAUSE of what Cain and Abel did. It is a part of who we are, a part of being human.

Another point - why did God wait to bring Jesus to the earth? What was the purpose of even having the lambs?

it was the command of God, plain and simple.

Why? Speculation varies, but the basic idea is that we are to give thanks, return part of the bounty that we recieve. This is a good thing, even today ... though many people tend to get caught up in the idea that they are required to give up stuff, not in the idea of gratitude and plenty.

Also, remember that even though these are phrased as sacrafices, often times this was where the priests and such got their food. In some cases, it was part of what was distributed out to the poor. Generally, only a small portion was actually burned, though that could vary.

Jesus couldn't have come sooner? Etc.

Because people were not ready. People had to mature.

This entire "desired to be loved by choice," not only makes him sound selfish (lmao PRAISE ME MINIONS OR SUFFER ETERNAL DAMNATION), but still makes him unjust, or if not unjust, cruel. For his OWN pleasure of wanting to be loved, he created things he knew that would be condemned eternally.

For the first part, yes, God is selfish. The Bible even says so. We are not to worship other
Gods, etc.

As for the second, it is the paradox of true free will. If humans were not given the capacity to fall, we would be but puppets. We are not.

They are his creation - he knew some wouldn't love them because of the circumstance he put us in, and still decided to create us! He knew that some would rebel, but created us anyways.

I mentioned the parenting analogy, but it is not complete. It only gets close. But, there are many situations where we know that our children will "go down a bad path", are making even very, very bad choices. AND, we have to stand back and let them... and hope that eventually, they will come around to make right choices.

In the case of God, it goes deeper. Yes, he could have prevented Adam and Eve from sinning, but what then? Then we would not have free will.

So, he made us... and he put up "guideposts". He gave us laws, then more laws, then Christ.

They are covenants he made. Why only the Jews? Because only they listened. But, in truth, if you look into all religions and all beliefs, you do find shadows or shades of or similarities to Christianity. So, perhaps God is not entirely distant, either.

Ultimately, I believe, most Christians believe that people are given a real and free choice, with full knowledge to either accept and come to God or to turn their backs on him and to experience the absense of God -- or hell. Like the parent, he is letting us make our own choices. Unlike a parent, he does know how it will all turn out. As DChristians, we believe it will "all turn out" for the best in the end ... pain, suffering and all.
I don't know. I only know that I am to follow Christ.

[suggs]

Player, your (too long to be a coherent, stylish argument, but never mind) argument is basically "we don't know God's justice, and He's Justice Is better than human justice".

That maybe true. But human justice says murder is wrong. If God is Ok with that, if he has some sort of cunning "end justifies the means masterplan", then I want nothing to do with it.
His justice is evil. f*ck off God, you murdering bastard.

[jay_a2j]

That gets back to FabledIntegral's questions:

Your explanation hardly makes any sense. If man was without sin how did they disobey God in the first place? If man was without knowledge - which the Bible clearly states is what the humans had, then how should they have even known it was wrong to disobey God in teh first place?

This is close, but not my church's teaching.

Does an infant sin? Does a dog sin? Generally, we say "no". Why? because you have to know that what you are doing is wrong for it to be sin. Neither animals, nor babies really have that capacity.

When Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were given certainin structions to follow. "you may not eat of the tree of knowledge" was the main one, some say the only one. They were, humans were, before that time, like the animals and the baby. Able to think, but not to "sin" in the sense that we think today. They took what they needed, etc. It just was. When Eve ate of the tree, she and Adam gained knowledge of sin. Only AFTER eating the fruit did we gain knowledge that, for example, we were naked without clothing.

Later, When Cain slew Abel, then sin came into humanity.

(and PLEASE note I and the vast majority of Christians DO believe that Evolution and Genesis are consistant. we may argue the details, but we accept both)

How is it that Cain killing Abel was the first sin? Were not Adam and Eve instructed by God not to eat from the tree of knowledge? Is not disobeying God, sin? I have never heard the first sin being that of Cain, and I've been to many different churches.

Please note that maybe the vast majority of Christians in your church believe that Evolution and Genesis are consistent, but the mainstream Church rejects this, and for good reason. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth", Evolution teaches that we evolved from other life. THIS is hardly "consistent". Speak for yourself, I accept Genesis and reject evolution. As do countless other Christians.

[Iliad]

Why is god so vain?

If he created all of this(the entire universe for one planet?) why would he even need us to pray to him? And why make it so complicated, and have many, many people die without even finding out who he is?

And free will? Really? To me "love me and follow everythign I say or you will burn for eternity" doesn't sound like free will. If a person comes up to me and points a gun to my head and tells me to put my hands up, it's not really free will either.

How can you guys even claim god is just if there are so many things in the bible which today no-one to VERY few would agree. You claim it's out of context or it's meant to be taken literally, but who are you to decide what's literal and what's not. The truth is the bible has some pretty outdated morals.

One last thing. Most people are atheists because they look at religions, look at history and think "That doesn't make sense"
So the just and loving god will send us to hell just because we came to the wrong logical conclusion?

Jay-Churches actually quite happily accept Evolution. In Europe anyway.

[Iliad]

That gets back to FabledIntegral's questions:

Your explanation hardly makes any sense. If man was without sin how did they disobey God in the first place? If man was without knowledge - which the Bible clearly states is what the humans had, then how should they have even known it was wrong to disobey God in teh first place?

This is close, but not my church's teaching.

Does an infant sin? Does a dog sin? Generally, we say "no". Why? because you have to know that what you are doing is wrong for it to be sin. Neither animals, nor babies really have that capacity.

When Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were given certainin structions to follow. "you may not eat of the tree of knowledge" was the main one, some say the only one. They were, humans were, before that time, like the animals and the baby. Able to think, but not to "sin" in the sense that we think today. They took what they needed, etc. It just was. When Eve ate of the tree, she and Adam gained knowledge of sin. Only AFTER eating the fruit did we gain knowledge that, for example, we were naked without clothing.

Later, When Cain slew Abel, then sin came into humanity.

(and PLEASE note I and the vast majority of Christians DO believe that Evolution and Genesis are consistant. we may argue the details, but we accept both)

How is it that Cain killing Abel was the first sin? Were not Adam and Eve instructed by God not to eat from the tree of knowledge? Is not disobeying God, sin? I have never heard the first sin being that of Cain, and I've been to many different churches.

Please note that maybe the vast majority of Christians in your church believe that Evolution and Genesis are consistent, but the mainstream Church rejects this, and for good reason. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth", Evolution teaches that we evolved from other life. THIS is hardly "consistent". Speak for yourself, I accept Genesis and reject evolution. As do countless other Christians.

BTW about the whole tree of knowledge thing. God lied to adam and eve. He told them they would die if they ate. And guess what they didn't! If god lies how can he be perfect? How can you even believe the bible then?

And if he didn't want them to eat it, why didn't he put it on a high mountain. Or warn them about the snake? You can't be angry if you knew it was goign to happen and you did nothing to stop it.

If I leave a bottle of water on the edge of a table, with the cap off, and then if someone bumps into the table and that bottle falls, I can be angry at the person, but I would know part of the blame is on me

[jay_a2j]

Why is god so vain?

If he created all of this(the entire universe for one planet?) why would he even need us to pray to him? And why make it so complicated, and have many, many people die without even finding out who he is?

And free will? Really? To me "love me and follow everythign I say or you will burn for eternity" doesn't sound like free will. If a person comes up to me and points a gun to my head and tells me to put my hands up, it's not really free will either.

How can you guys even claim god is just if there are so many things in the bible which today no-one to VERY few would agree. You claim it's out of context or it's meant to be taken literally, but who are you to decide what's literal and what's not. The truth is the bible has some pretty outdated morals.

One last thing. Most people are atheists because they look at religions, look at history and think "That doesn't make sense"
So the just and loving god will send us to hell just because we came to the wrong logical conclusion?

Jay-Churches actually quite happily accept Evolution. In Europe anyway.

"Most people are Atheists"? Hmm must be a European thing, atheism is a small minority in the US.

God addresses this, "Churches quite happily accept Evolution" thing. It's when God separates the SHEEP from the GOATS.