Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

[PLAYER57832]

Did anyone see this already? Acquired traits may also be inherited to the next generation, or even generations.

The idea that qualities acquired from experience can be transmitted to future offspring has long been considered incompatible with current understanding of genetics. However, the recent documentation of non-Mendelian transgenerational inheritance makes such a "Lamarckian"-like phenomenon more plausible. Here, we demonstrate that exposure of 15-d-old mice to 2 weeks of an enriched environment (EE), that includes exposure to novel objects, elevated social interactions and voluntary exercise, enhances long-term potentiation (LTP) not only in these enriched mice but also in their future offspring through early adolescence, even if the offspring never experience EE. In both generations, LTP induction is augmented by a newly appearing cAMP/p38 MAP kinase-dependent signaling cascade. Strikingly, defective LTP and contextual fear conditioning memory normally associated with ras-grf knock-out mice are both masked in the offspring of enriched mutant parents. The transgenerational transmission of this effect occurs from the enriched mother to her offspring during embryogenesis. If a similar phenomenon occurs in humans, the effectiveness of one's memory during adolescence, particularly in those with defective cell signaling mechanisms that control memory, can be influenced by environmental stimulation experienced by one's mother during her youth.

Yes, pretty much anyone who has seriously studied biology and Genetics at a credible university within the past 20 years SHOULD know this was possible!

This is a case of someone taking what might be credible science and then making an illogical statement about what it proves.

All this study is REALLY saying is that this chemical can affect the mind early on. This seems to indicate influences can come perhaps earlier than thought. Also, it addresses a specific change by this specific substance. However, it is nothing really radical, not at all.


This is precisely what happens with radiation. It is what happens with many chemicals.

I have to wonder where you found this? Most science journals would have ensured it were worded differantly.

[AAFitz]

also, the passages that widow makers believe suggest the earth is 6000-10000 years old, are far older than 2000 years, but we get the idea

If this is a quote to my post. then read it more closely. I wrote 10,000 years from now.
And in Swedish physiology is spelled the exect same way except the ph in the beginning is an "f" so that's why I typed it wrong actually! Not because it sounds like an f!

MVH Gillipig

well color me stupid about the fysiology...so sorry...my sweedish is pretty rusty.

but the other part

and you choose to ignore that and believe in what was written 2 000 years ago in a much more primitive society,

that was what I was saying was innacurate...the story and book widow makers is using to base the 6000-10000 years, is necessarily just as old as that.

In any case, I was agreeing with your intent for the most part

[Neoteny]

Did anyone see this already? Acquired traits may also be inherited to the next generation, or even generations.

The idea that qualities acquired from experience can be transmitted to future offspring has long been considered incompatible with current understanding of genetics. However, the recent documentation of non-Mendelian transgenerational inheritance makes such a "Lamarckian"-like phenomenon more plausible. Here, we demonstrate that exposure of 15-d-old mice to 2 weeks of an enriched environment (EE), that includes exposure to novel objects, elevated social interactions and voluntary exercise, enhances long-term potentiation (LTP) not only in these enriched mice but also in their future offspring through early adolescence, even if the offspring never experience EE. In both generations, LTP induction is augmented by a newly appearing cAMP/p38 MAP kinase-dependent signaling cascade. Strikingly, defective LTP and contextual fear conditioning memory normally associated with ras-grf knock-out mice are both masked in the offspring of enriched mutant parents. The transgenerational transmission of this effect occurs from the enriched mother to her offspring during embryogenesis. If a similar phenomenon occurs in humans, the effectiveness of one's memory during adolescence, particularly in those with defective cell signaling mechanisms that control memory, can be influenced by environmental stimulation experienced by one's mother during her youth.

Yes, pretty much anyone who has seriously studied biology and Genetics at a credible university within the past 20 years SHOULD know this was possible!

This is a case of someone taking what might be credible science and then making an illogical statement about what it proves.

All this study is REALLY saying is that this chemical can affect the mind early on. This seems to indicate influences can come perhaps earlier than thought. Also, it addresses a specific change by this specific substance. However, it is nothing really radical, not at all.


This is precisely what happens with radiation. It is what happens with many chemicals.

I have to wonder where you found this? Most science journals would have ensured it were worded differantly.

Journal of Neuroscience, dear. My first thoughts were similar to yours, that the enriched environment was producing a physiological effect that was just better for reproductive fitness. But I don't have a subscription, and can't read the specific article, so who knows.

[Gillipig]

but the other part

and you choose to ignore that and believe in what was written 2 000 years ago in a much more primitive society,

that was what I was saying was innacurate...the story and book widow makers is using to base the 6000-10000 years, is necessarily just as old as that.

In any case, I was agreeing with your intent for the most part

I was talking about the bible! And it wasn't written 10,000 years ago. It's based on a event that happend 2,000 years ago, the crucifiction of christ etc. so the book couldn't been finished before that! Thank "god" that most people would agree on that christianities way of looking of the world is unreasonble! I can only imagine how it would been like living in a world that was completly controlled by religion. uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[PLAYER57832]

Journal of Neuroscience, dear. My first thoughts were similar to yours, that the enriched environment was producing a physiological effect that was just better for reproductive fitness. But I don't have a subscription, and can't read the specific article, so who knows.

Journal of Neurosciece is a credible journal. After reading through it again, the summary (I presume that is what this is?), indicates nothing all that phenomenal, except in specifics. That is, the reason it is new and publishable is because it gives a specific change by a chemical to a specific part of the brain that is triggered during adolescence ... but as you, I would need the whole article to really see.

My main point is that it is common for someone to pull out a bit of research, read it partly and then say that it is making a completely differant claim from what it really is or to believe it is saying something astoundingly new instead of "just" a variation on something well known.

In this case, we absolutely know that various chemicals and environmental effects (including hormones which may be triggered by a mother's behavior or even beliefs) can influence the developing embryo or fetus, sometimes at the tertiary level ...that is, sometimes it just affects that embryo and sometimes the genes are changed such that it affects that child's future progeny, including brain functions.

We are not anywhere near to understanding all the impacts of our surroundings on development.

[GrimReaper.]

if the earth was 10,000 years old and MT EVEREST grows at .5 inches a year an the mountain is 29,035 feet tall as of Jan 31 2008 it would take over 58 thousand years for it to form

[Rocketry]

To make this fair you really need to compare evolution to some other loony ideas as well. So for example, evolution vs scientology, evolutions vs Eath-is-actually-flat and evolution vs wicked-is-stil-amongst-us.

Rocket.

[MeDeFe]

I also recall a TV program from just last tuesday, or possibly the one before that... either one. A Dutch study had found that people who had been conceived shortly before the winter of 1944/45 when food was extremely scarce were considerably more likely to suffer from a variety of health problems, well, no big surprise you might say, but it didn't end there. Their children were also more likely to suffer from the same problems, despite there being more than enough to eat and vastly improved health services by the time they were conceived and born.

[PLAYER57832]

I also recall a TV program from just last tuesday, or possibly the one before that... either one. A Dutch study had found that people who had been conceived shortly before the winter of 1944/45 when food was extremely scarce were considerably more likely to suffer from a variety of health problems, well, no big surprise you might say, but it didn't end there. Their children were also more likely to suffer from the same problems, despite there being more than enough to eat and vastly improved health services by the time they were conceived and born.

As I said, there is nothing new in this concept, just in the specifics. That said, there is a huge amount of research involved in finding the specifics. Those results are to be lauded, but not for the reasons you first seemed to imply.

[snufkin]

To make this fair you really need to compare evolution to some other loony ideas as well. So for example, evolution vs scientology

Tom Cruise may be completely nuts but widowmakers and his creationist friends are even worse! Why the hell would God plant lots of false physical evidence on earth that suggest it´s older than 10K years?
If your God is such a manipulative little narcissistic baby that he deliberately is trying to trick you into not believing the truth then he is not worthy of having a following at all.
My God is still in the process of creating the universe and started way before any organic life existed. Humans are great because we come from the universe which is God itself. God created the universe in its own image, not man specifically.

..in Swedish physiology is spelled in the exact same way except the ph in the beginning is an "f" so that's why I typed it wrong actually!

I will give you a thousand svenska kronor if can you find a Swedish dictionary where it´s spelled the way you describe it..

[AAFitz]

but the other part

and you choose to ignore that and believe in what was written 2 000 years ago in a much more primitive society,

that was what I was saying was innacurate...the story and book widow makers is using to base the 6000-10000 years, is necessarily just as old as that.

In any case, I was agreeing with your intent for the most part

I was talking about the bible! And it wasn't written 10,000 years ago. It's based on a event that happend 2,000 years ago, the crucifiction of christ etc. so the book couldn't been finished before that! Thank "god" that most people would agree on that christianities way of looking of the world is unreasonble! I can only imagine how it would been like living in a world that was completly controlled by religion. uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

AGAIN... The part of the bible that Widows is using to say the earth is 10000 years old, is the old testament. The new testement started with Christ, but the old testament includes genesis, which describes the world being created in 6 days, and the reasoning behind his logic. Also, if adam and eve were the first people, then the bible, or its story, is exactly as old as them. It would have been handed down from person to person until it got written down, so, a creationist view of the bible is that it is equal to the age of the planet...so if the world is 10000 years old, so is the bible..or its story anyways. Either way, it is far older than 2000 years old. You are just confused between the old testament, and the new.

[Gillipig]

..in Swedish physiology is spelled in the exact same way except the ph in the beginning is an "f" so that's why I typed it wrong actually!

I will give you a thousand svenska kronor if can you find a Swedish dictionary where it´s spelled the way you describe it..

Jag gjorde också en miss med y:et! men annars så stämmer det eller hur?

MVH Gillipig

[deceangli]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

[Gillipig]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

HaHA you actually think they originally wrote the Bible in English hahaha, You are a little lost my good friend!
It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

[Balsiefen]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

HaHA you actually think they originally wrote the Bible in English hahaha, You are a little lost my good friend!
It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

But it's a well known fact that God is an Englishman, probably from Oxfordshire.

[Gillipig]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

HaHA you actually think they originally wrote the Bible in English hahaha, You are a little lost my good friend!
It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

But it's a well known fact that God is an Englishman, probably from Oxfordshire.

Yeah in the same way Santa Claus is Finish!
Both are made up characters who have whatever nationality you like them to have!

[PLAYER57832]

It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

Uh -- Greek, Hebrew. etc.

[Snorri1234]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

HaHA you actually think they originally wrote the Bible in English hahaha, You are a little lost my good friend!
It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

Oh man, I was gonna laugh at you for failing to detect the sarcasm, but now I'm just gonna laugh at you for saying the bible was written in Latin.

[Frigidus]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

HaHA you actually think they originally wrote the Bible in English hahaha, You are a little lost my good friend!
It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

Oh man, I was gonna laugh at you for failing to detect the sarcasm, but now I'm just gonna laugh at you for saying the bible was written in Latin.

I'm pretty sure we all agree the bible was first written using Hieroglyphics. It's history, guys. History.

[Snorri1234]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

HaHA you actually think they originally wrote the Bible in English hahaha, You are a little lost my good friend!
It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

Oh man, I was gonna laugh at you for failing to detect the sarcasm, but now I'm just gonna laugh at you for saying the bible was written in Latin.

I'm pretty sure we all agree the bible was first written using Hieroglyphics. It's history, guys. History.

No man, it was written in Cuneiform script.

[Gillipig]

Hah yeah laugh at me! I know when I deserve it, got a little distracted!

[PLAYER57832]

I think you'll find that Swedish, like all the other non-English languages, is just a made-up language to confuse tourists. Come on guys, we know you all speak English at home when we're not around.

Besides, if God had meant us all to speak Swedish, he wouldn't have written the Bible in English!

HaHA you actually think they originally wrote the Bible in English hahaha, You are a little lost my good friend!
It was of course written in latin! English wasn't even a language when the bible was written!

MVH Gillipig

Oh man, I was gonna laugh at you for failing to detect the sarcasm, but now I'm just gonna laugh at you for saying the bible was written in Latin.

I'm pretty sure we all agree the bible was first written using Hieroglyphics. It's history, guys. History.

No man, it was written in Cuneiform script.

Not sure where you get this information, I was always taught it was first written down in Hebrew, . Before that it was oral tradition. A small portion was added in Aramaic and then translated to Hebrew.

I even have a source! :
http://www.preceptsagemont.org/OldTestamentPrimer.htm

[Snorri1234]

Not sure where you get this information, I was always taught it was first written down in Hebrew, . Before that it was oral tradition. A small portion was added in Aramaic and then translated to Hebrew.

I even have a source! :
http://www.preceptsagemont.org/OldTestamentPrimer.htm

We were trying to be funny but you ruined it now.

[The Weird One]

Not sure where you get this information, I was always taught it was first written down in Hebrew, . Before that it was oral tradition. A small portion was added in Aramaic and then translated to Hebrew.

I even have a source! :
http://www.preceptsagemont.org/OldTestamentPrimer.htm

We were trying to be funny but you ruined it now.

It could be argued that his ignorance of your sarcasm just makes it better. . .

[Frigidus]

Not sure where you get this information, I was always taught it was first written down in Hebrew, . Before that it was oral tradition. A small portion was added in Aramaic and then translated to Hebrew.

I even have a source! :
http://www.preceptsagemont.org/OldTestamentPrimer.htm

We were trying to be funny but you ruined it now.

It could be argued that his ignorance of your sarcasm just makes it better. . .

Well, I was dead serious. Sarcasm? I've never used sarcasm ever.