Is there a god?

[john9blue]

partial knowledge (or strong belief) is still knowledge in the sense that it requires evidence.

occam's razor eliminates the teapot and FSM in favor of a god

Can you clarify that last bit,why exactly can't one equally say occam's razor eliminates the teapot and god in favour of the fsm?I think there is an equal paucity of evidence for all three.

a god that personifies the universe/is a perfection of the universe/IS the universe/whatever type of god you want to believe in... is much simpler. it makes more sense that the universe would be created by a being like that, instead of a being with arbitrary imperfect traits like being noodles or a teapot.

but noodles and a teapot are funny, so let's throw all logic out the window just for a cheap laugh.

[chang50]

partial knowledge (or strong belief) is still knowledge in the sense that it requires evidence.

occam's razor eliminates the teapot and FSM in favor of a god

Can you clarify that last bit,why exactly can't one equally say occam's razor eliminates the teapot and god in favour of the fsm?I think there is an equal paucity of evidence for all three.

a god that personifies the universe/is a perfection of the universe/IS the universe/whatever type of god you want to believe in... is much simpler. it makes more sense that the universe would be created by a being like that, instead of a being with arbitrary imperfect traits like being noodles or a teapot.

but noodles and a teapot are funny, so let's throw all logic out the window just for a cheap laugh.

It might make more sense to you,I don't even know that it was created,and neither do you if you stopped to think about it.You are claiming way more knowledge than our partially evolved primate species is capable of understanding,and perhaps never will.

[cookie0117]

also, if the universe was randomly created by a random chain of events, wouldn't there be much more chaos, like, everywhere? yet, the universe is very accurate, the time it takes for the earth to revolve around the sun is the same every year, and that's true for all planets, and everything else in the universe has strict laws to define what they do, even if we don't know those laws yet.

This is not correct. The time has, does and will continue to change. The difference is inconcievable small so you will never notice it over the period of a few years but given a million years or so and it all adds up. A fraction of a second may no be much when compared to a year but it is still a difference.

[john9blue]

a god that personifies the universe/is a perfection of the universe/IS the universe/whatever type of god you want to believe in... is much simpler. it makes more sense that the universe would be created by a being like that, instead of a being with arbitrary imperfect traits like being noodles or a teapot.

but noodles and a teapot are funny, so let's throw all logic out the window just for a cheap laugh.

It might make more sense to you,I don't even know that it was created,and neither do you if you stopped to think about it.You are claiming way more knowledge than our partially evolved primate species is capable of understanding,and perhaps never will.

i never claimed to know that. i'm saying why a perfect/complete god makes more sense according to occam's razor than a teapot god

[zimmah]

A few points of interest, the laws of the universe are written by us as the limit of understanding. They are by no mean fixed and unchangable. They are evolving and always have been. Remember that people used to think that earth was the centre of the universe and it was flat. Science is the search for answers. A "theory" is what is observed and understood to be true to the current limit of our knowledge.

Also the argument that I dont understand and only works to rubbish itself is the "life and the universe is too complicated to have just come into existence, meaning an even more powerful complicated being must always have existed in order to create it"

Well then who made this force? It must of had a creator as its too complicated and powerful to always have existed, if something as simple as a human must of had a creator.... At some point along this ever lasting chain you have to accept that some thing came into existence. Or you have proved that you are happy that something does not require a creator, at which point the universe and humans no longer need to have a creator.

our understanding of the laws is evolving, the laws don't change, however.

gravity for example has always been there, keeping things in place, keeping oxigen and water on or near the surface of the earth, and keeping the earth and the planets in orbit of the sun, and the moon in orbit of the earth, creating the tides because the gravity of the moon pulls the water and stabilizes the earths rotation and axis, those things don't chance, those rules are strictly defined a long time ago, and only god himself can bend those rules.

we don't have a full understanding of those laws of the universe yet, i assume we only know less then 1% about all of those laws, but we know enough to do crazy things like space travel, long distance communication, internet, television, etc.

also, like i stated before, COMMON people believed the earth was flat and the center of the universe, religious people NEVER believed that. the bible proof that roughly 1500 B.C. the bble writers allready wrote statements about the earth and the universe that are even correct to todays scientific knowledge about those statements (like the earth is a sphere and it's kinda 'floating' in orbit)

god didn't need a creator because he didn't have a beginning in the first place, and besides, if god didn't create it, you're effectively assigning god-like properties to the universe itself, if you say the universe shaped itself, the universe IS your god. however in the case that the universe has godlike properties it's unlikely you'll ever hear of him because the universe is not a living being.

To say the laws do not change is an assumption that you are making. In the space and time where we exist we can measure them but we do not know what is true beyond the event horizion of a black hole for instance. We do not know the boundaries of when and where the laws hold true to our knowledge. Hence as science grows the theories evolve and laws are rewritten.

If god did not have a beginning or creator, why does the universe need one?

I in no way think the universe is a god, I do not believe it is any way concisous or controlling of its or anyone elses destiny. Also and more importantly I do not require it to be a god or for any force to be reguarded as a god. So the lack of one is not a void I must fill.

Vague and non specific predictions almost always prove to be true, this is why we have to put up with people quoting astrology as if it has some truth. Read the day after you can always relate some events predicted to reality in your stars. The bible can be read anyway you want to. The worlds are so vague and detached from modern meanings. They are used interchangable at will of the person making an argument. It has been translated many times across many languages. Plus there is no proof it is even from the source it claims to be, only belief that it is. Which is why I can prove the bible says the earth is flat, it used a world which in other places mean circle/disc.

Another problem I have is god told people about how he created the earth/stars and everything but was unable to give a concistent account of it, with any detail.

humans are designed to live in this universe, there's no telling what would happen if human or any kind of animal leaves the universe. we know from experience that we can travel outside the orbit of the earth, as long as we have the right protection and preparations, but we have not a single clue what would happen if we were to leave the boundaries of space itself, if that's even possible, and if the laws of the universe are any different outside the universe. also i believe the theory of wormholes you're reffering too has not been proven ever. and a black hole is simply a collapsed star with a gravity so intense it even pulls in light, if i'm not mistaken. either way, the laws or lack of laws outside our known universe do not matter at this point in time. we have enough research for a few thousand years or more to even remotely understand this universe, so as long as we don't even understand this universe, why even think about trying to understand what's beyond that?

also, it's not just an assumption, it's an observation. everyone knows gravity has been around before the earth was created, if there was no such thing as gravity, the earth would collapse immediatly, and so would the stars, and the universe itself. in order for there to be an universe in the first place, some of the basic laws had to exist before that. and even the most basic laws are so complex that we don't even fully understand them.

laws are not rewritten, OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAWS is what changes NOT the law itself! that's a HUGE difference you fail to understand. it's not that back in the days when people didn't know about gravity they would just fly from the surface of earth because there wasn't any written documentation about gravity, so gravity just didn't apply to them, because they didn't know about it, that's just ridiculous. instead, people started to observe things falling on their head and so forth and concluded some force must keep things together and started studying what was going on, but the knowledge they gained from studying didn't change the law itself! the gravity we have now is exactly the same gravity our ancestors had, and it will be exactly the same our grandchildren will have.

and "If god did not have a beginning or creator, why does the universe need one?"
like i told before, god is a being of dynamic energy, he is not bound by rules or laws, but the universe is. without laws, the universe would collapse, a being of energy wouldn't collapse.

you didn't even listen to what i was saying either, i never defined a god as someone who is controlling destiny, i defined god as a bringer of law and order in complete chaos, he who created laws and life. if you believe there is no god, you're basically saying the universe is god because the universe created itself and it's own laws. i wasn't even talking about prophecies and predictions

besides, just so you know, the prophecies in the bible were far from vague and non-specific, but that's a whole another subject.

and yes, the bible is misinterpret a lot of times, but that is because those people are cherrypicking from it instead of trying to see the greater picture of it. the bible is a complete work and if you read it as a whole and compare the pieces like a puzzle, there's only 1 way the puzzle will fit correctly without contradicting itself. there's not a single religion who has all the pieces on the right place yet, but some of them are quite close (and others are way off, unfortunately, but those are the easiest to spot anyway). yes, some parts of the bible are very complex, but those who have a good heart will eventually discover the truth. the bible can NOT be taken any way you want to, because it will contradict itself if you take anything the wrong way, and in that case you're just cherrypicking. also, what more proof do you want of the source? it has a lot of prophecies in it that allready came true, and some prophecies that are getting fullfilled soon, and like i said earlier, it's accurate and not disproved even by modern science, and old documents give enough backup of different parts of the bible. there's enough proof the bible isn't just an old fairytale.

and why would god need to give a very detailed story about how he created the universe? the bible was not written for scientific purposes, there was no need to be detailed about it, it's enough that it sais god made it.

This is not correct. The time has, does and will continue to change. The difference is inconcievable small so you will never notice it over the period of a few years but given a million years or so and it all adds up. A fraction of a second may no be much when compared to a year but it is still a difference.

fractions of seconds can be measured by modern science, there's noone who ever said the earth is speeding up or slowing down. i believe the earth may not be constant, but it will average out. the orbit around the sun is not a perfect circle, so the distance to the sun will probably have some influence on the earth speeding up and slowing down, but the 'lap' time does not need to change, the universe doesn't give a lot of resistance because of the near-vacuum so there's almost no air resistance and no friction either, therefore there's not much energy needed to sustain it's speed and the gravity of the sun and other objects supply enough energy to sustain it's speed and balance. therefore, the average speed does not ever need to change.

[zimmah]

also god gave us the bible for a reason. if god wouldn't have given us the bible and would not have sent his son to earth, then we wouldn't have been able to tell if there was a god or not. and in that case i too would have said: "i don't know how the universe started, and we probably will never know" however, that is not the case. god gave us the option to know it, and he told us we should study it, so i do it.

god is a good parent, so i respect him and his authority. not because of fear or because of personal gain, but because i appreciate god for what he has done for us, and i want to do what little i can do to make him happy.

[chang50]

a god that personifies the universe/is a perfection of the universe/IS the universe/whatever type of god you want to believe in... is much simpler. it makes more sense that the universe would be created by a being like that, instead of a being with arbitrary imperfect traits like being noodles or a teapot.

but noodles and a teapot are funny, so let's throw all logic out the window just for a cheap laugh.

It might make more sense to you,I don't even know that it was created,and neither do you if you stopped to think about it.You are claiming way more knowledge than our partially evolved primate species is capable of understanding,and perhaps never will.

i never claimed to know that. i'm saying why a perfect/complete god makes more sense according to occam's razor than a teapot god

We are just going to have to agree to disagree,when the question at hand is so far beyond our understanding all answers seem to me to be more or less equally absurd.

[natty dread]

also god gave us the bible for a reason. if god wouldn't have given us the bible and would not have sent his son to earth, then we wouldn't have been able to tell if there was a god or not. and in that case i too would have said: "i don't know how the universe started, and we probably will never know" however, that is not the case. god gave us the option to know it, and he told us we should study it, so i do it.

god is a good parent, so i respect him and his authority. not because of fear or because of personal gain, but because i appreciate god for what he has done for us, and i want to do what little i can do to make him happy.

So, how do we know your religion is right, and not the countless other religions which claim to be the one true religion?

How do we know your interpretation of the bible is correct, and not the countless other interpretations?

And how do you know which parts of the bible are meant literally, and which are allegory? Shouldn't there be some kind of guide for it?

Let's for the sake of argument say I'd be someone who'd be really, really interested in religion and would really want to believe in god, but couldn't make any sense of all the different religions and their conflicting messages. So how would you sell your point of view to me? How would you convince me that your religion is the One True Religion?

[chang50]

also god gave us the bible for a reason. if god wouldn't have given us the bible and would not have sent his son to earth, then we wouldn't have been able to tell if there was a god or not. and in that case i too would have said: "i don't know how the universe started, and we probably will never know" however, that is not the case. god gave us the option to know it, and he told us we should study it, so i do it.

god is a good parent, so i respect him and his authority. not because of fear or because of personal gain, but because i appreciate god for what he has done for us, and i want to do what little i can do to make him happy.

That is a classic example of circular reasoning..and what about the hundreds of millions who have never even heard of him or the bible?At least I had the option of accepting him.Come to think of it what about the billions now dead who never had the option.It is estimated 105 billion have lived on this planet.Hardly all loving to exclude all of them.

[zimmah]

also god gave us the bible for a reason. if god wouldn't have given us the bible and would not have sent his son to earth, then we wouldn't have been able to tell if there was a god or not. and in that case i too would have said: "i don't know how the universe started, and we probably will never know" however, that is not the case. god gave us the option to know it, and he told us we should study it, so i do it.

god is a good parent, so i respect him and his authority. not because of fear or because of personal gain, but because i appreciate god for what he has done for us, and i want to do what little i can do to make him happy.

So, how do we know your religion is right, and not the countless other religions which claim to be the one true religion?

How do we know your interpretation of the bible is correct, and not the countless other interpretations?

And how do you know which parts of the bible are meant literally, and which are allegory? Shouldn't there be some kind of guide for it?

Let's for the sake of argument say I'd be someone who'd be really, really interested in religion and would really want to believe in god, but couldn't make any sense of all the different religions and their conflicting messages. So how would you sell your point of view to me? How would you convince me that your religion is the One True Religion?

i just assume the religion who matches all the pieces of the biblical puzzle the best is the right one, i'd assume one that matches 99% of the pieces correctly is much more accurate then one that only matches 5%

[zimmah]

also god gave us the bible for a reason. if god wouldn't have given us the bible and would not have sent his son to earth, then we wouldn't have been able to tell if there was a god or not. and in that case i too would have said: "i don't know how the universe started, and we probably will never know" however, that is not the case. god gave us the option to know it, and he told us we should study it, so i do it.

god is a good parent, so i respect him and his authority. not because of fear or because of personal gain, but because i appreciate god for what he has done for us, and i want to do what little i can do to make him happy.

That is a classic example of circular reasoning..and what about the hundreds of millions who have never even heard of him or the bible?At least I had the option of accepting him.Come to think of it what about the billions now dead who never had the option.It is estimated 105 billion have lived on this planet.Hardly all loving to exclude all of them.

almost everyone who is dead now, will be revived except for those who have allready faced justice (which are only a select few who were directly killed by god for crimes directly against god or the holy spirit, those will not be revived, obviously.) they will have the time and oppurtunity to make the right decision in the new world, after armagedon. also, the bible clearly states that the word of god has to be known everywhere around the world, even in the far area's, and that's exactly what is happening now. the bible or parts of it have been translated in hundreds of languages and even remote cultures and area's have heared of god. there's not an exact date in the bible about the end of times, but it's clear it can't take much longer. we don't know if that means it will be another week or another year or another decade or even a few more decades, but it's certainly close. i believe it's not even a century away, and probably most of us will still live to see the end of the world as we know it. by that i mean not that the world will be destroyed, but rather the ruler of the world will, and the structure of society will shift, as a new ruler will stand up, jesus himself. as for those who don't know it, the bible states the ruler of this world is the devil, and no i don't mean obama is the devil, he's just a figurehead and a puppet. the devil is really pulling the strings.

[natty dread]

i just assume the religion who matches all the pieces of the biblical puzzle the best is the right one, i'd assume one that matches 99% of the pieces correctly is much more accurate then one that only matches 5%

Ok, but how do I know the bible is correct, and not the koran, or the bhagavad gita, or any other holy book? They all make equal claims of being the One Perfect Source of Truth. How do I know the christian bible is the right one?

[natty dread]

almost everyone who is dead now, will be revived except for those who have allready faced justice (which are only a select few who were directly killed by god for crimes directly against god or the holy spirit, those will not be revived, obviously.) they will have the time and oppurtunity to make the right decision in the new world, after armagedon. also, the bible clearly states that the word of god has to be known everywhere around the world, even in the far area's, and that's exactly what is happening now. the bible or parts of it have been translated in hundreds of languages and even remote cultures and area's have heared of god. there's not an exact date in the bible about the end of times, but it's clear it can't take much longer. we don't know if that means it will be another week or another year or another decade or even a few more decades, but it's certainly close. i believe it's not even a century away, and probably most of us will still live to see the end of the world as we know it. by that i mean not that the world will be destroyed, but rather the ruler of the world will, and the structure of society will shift, as a new ruler will stand up, jesus himself. as for those who don't know it, the bible states the ruler of this world is the devil, and no i don't mean obama is the devil, he's just a figurehead and a puppet. the devil is really pulling the strings.

What if you're wrong, and your beliefs are false? Ever think of that?

All these people who are so CERTAIN that the end-times MUST be coming in a few decades, all these people who are only concerned of a "spiritual war" (which no one can really define) rather than actual, tangible real world problems... why would these people care about saving the environment, and making sure our children and grandchildren will have a place to live in, if they believe the world will end anyway?

And hey, we don't need to do anything to stop the climate change. God controls weather anyway!

And hey, we don't need to eliminate the inequality of living conditions between first and third world countries, we don't need to end the suffering of poor people, or combat world hunger... it's MUCH more important to just send bibles and preachers to them so at least when they die horribly after suffering years of hunger and malnutrition, wars, abuse and poverty, they will get to go to heaven.

And hey, we don't need to eliminate the inequality between sexes, or the inequality towards homosexuals, because the bible says women should be servants to men, and homosexuals are horrible sinners which god created for some reason, so they don't matter. If they just pray for Jebus, they'll get to go to heaven!

Yeah, why bother trying to make the world a better place? It's all going to end in "a few decades at most", and Jebus will come over and make everything great for everyone, yippee. We don't have any actual proof of this happening except some ancient religious texts, and if we're wrong our indifference and inaction will cause horrible consequences to our grandchildren, but hey, we MUST be right because THE BIBLE SAYS SO so let's not think about those awful things - pretty sure thinking is a sin anyway!

[BigBallinStalin]

almost everyone who is dead now, will be revived except for those who have allready faced justice (which are only a select few who were directly killed by god for crimes directly against god or the holy spirit, those will not be revived, obviously.) they will have the time and oppurtunity to make the right decision in the new world, after armagedon. also, the bible clearly states that the word of god has to be known everywhere around the world, even in the far area's, and that's exactly what is happening now. the bible or parts of it have been translated in hundreds of languages and even remote cultures and area's have heared of god. there's not an exact date in the bible about the end of times, but it's clear it can't take much longer. we don't know if that means it will be another week or another year or another decade or even a few more decades, but it's certainly close. i believe it's not even a century away, and probably most of us will still live to see the end of the world as we know it. by that i mean not that the world will be destroyed, but rather the ruler of the world will, and the structure of society will shift, as a new ruler will stand up, jesus himself. as for those who don't know it, the bible states the ruler of this world is the devil, and no i don't mean obama is the devil, he's just a figurehead and a puppet. the devil is really pulling the strings.

What if you're wrong, and your beliefs are false? Ever think of that?

All these people who are so CERTAIN that the end-times MUST be coming in a few decades, all these people who are only concerned of a "spiritual war" (which no one can really define) rather than actual, tangible real world problems... why would these people care about saving the environment, and making sure our children and grandchildren will have a place to live in, if they believe the world will end anyway?

And hey, we don't need to do anything to stop the climate change. God controls weather anyway!

And hey, we don't need to eliminate the inequality of living conditions between first and third world countries, we don't need to end the suffering of poor people, or combat world hunger... it's MUCH more important to just send bibles and preachers to them so at least when they die horribly after suffering years of hunger and malnutrition, wars, abuse and poverty, they will get to go to heaven.

And hey, we don't need to eliminate the inequality between sexes, or the inequality towards homosexuals, because the bible says women should be servants to men, and homosexuals are horrible sinners which god created for some reason, so they don't matter. If they just pray for Jebus, they'll get to go to heaven!

Yeah, why bother trying to make the world a better place? It's all going to end in "a few decades at most", and Jebus will come over and make everything great for everyone, yippee. We don't have any actual proof of this happening except some ancient religious texts, and if we're wrong our indifference and inaction will cause horrible consequences to our grandchildren, but hey, we MUST be right because THE BIBLE SAYS SO so let's not think about those awful things - pretty sure thinking is a sin anyway!

Apparently, you didn't interpret the Bible correctly because my interpretation of the Bible which was interpreted for me by the Catholic Church says that you're wrong.

[zimmah]

i just assume the religion who matches all the pieces of the biblical puzzle the best is the right one, i'd assume one that matches 99% of the pieces correctly is much more accurate then one that only matches 5%

Ok, but how do I know the bible is correct, and not the koran, or the bhagavad gita, or any other holy book? They all make equal claims of being the One Perfect Source of Truth. How do I know the christian bible is the right one?

the koran claims to be the sequel to the bible, yet it contradicts not only the bible but also itself, the bible is the only holy book that i know of that makes sense as a whole.

btw spiritual war is defined in the bible, that's actually what the bible is all about.
the devil accused god of being a bad ruler and accused humankind of only serving god for personal gain, he questioned god authority to rule, and claims humankind don't need god as a ruler. God gave humankind the ability to prove that they don't need god as a ruler, and look at the world now. where are we without god's guidance? endless war, misery, selfishness, crime, etc. Humankind has a huge part in this war, because the most part of the accusion directly relates to humankind, we humans can prove that we want to obey god out of free will, and not only for our personal gain.

also, god said he will defile those who defile the earth, so it's not a good plan to damage the environment, also i said the earth will not be destroyed in the sense that the earth ACTUALLY will be destroyed, instead, the world order will be destroyed, the rulers of the world and all false religion, a lot of bad people with bad hearts will be destroyed, etc. but the world itself will just be renewed.

god told us we need to respect life and the earth, it's a gift from god and we need to handle it with care. also god does not control the weather at the moment, the weather is controlled by laws of nature that were once defined by god, but he's not actually controlling the weather, he's not causing disasters, i believe human is causing most of them, without understanding the laws. humans seem to do a lot of damage to the earth and the earth has properties to recover itself, however, in the process of recovery, sometimes the parasites that are damaging have to be removed, just like the human body tries to kill infections, the earth recovers from infections by earthquakes and floods. yes, people get killed in the process, but i wouldn't be surprised if people were the cause in the first place. either way, invoked by humans or not, god does not create natural disasters, except for the few occasions like the global flood, but god ALWAYS WARNS before he does things like that. God does not WANT to kill people, he always gives them a way out.

also, god wants us to help the weak as much as we can, it's an act of true love, and there's no rules against love. with that i mean the love to help your surroundings, and not erotic love, that's a different kind of love. so helping out your environment by helping 3rd world countries s perfectly fine and even encouraged, but that does not mean you should just ignore what's more important. because any help we can give is just temporary, while the help the bible can give is forever. big deal if you can cure a sickness, people are going to die sooner or later anyway, so why not give them the chance to not have to die in the first place instead?

also, the bible has a clear standpoint on inequality between sexes and homosexuals, the bible sais that woman should be treated with respect, however, if you want to follow god, you can't be homosexual. The bible does not say womans are servants to men by the way, he sais men are the head of the family, but that does not mean we should treat woman as slaves. there's enough occasions in the bible where it becomes clear to understand what it means to be the head of the family, and still respect your woman as an equal, it's just because a lot of people nowadays think that when you are the head of someone, you should abuse them, but that just means you're a poor leader, a good leader knows to tread their followers as equal, or even superior, to get the most out of them. a true leader dares to step back sometimes, and asks the opinion of their followers, but ultimately they can assume control if neccesary, and also, in the same verse where the bible states that men are the head of their woman (only after marriage) it also sais that christ is the head of men, therefore, men don't even have supreme authority, we still have to listen to our master.

also, even ghandi said that if everyone in the world were to take guidance of the bible, the world would allready be a better place, even without god.

the sad thing is, only a minority actualy does this. also, there's plenty of religious groups, from different religions, that actually do a lot of charity, not saying non-believers don't do charity, just saying that the fact that you believe in god does not mean you can't or won't do charity. charity is something that is encouraged by god, and is practiced in most religions.


also, thinking is highly encouraged in the bible too. in fact, not thinking can lead to dead.

the catholic church is no authority over the bible btw, the very act of having human saints is idoltry, one of the biggest sins in the bible. yet, having saints is one of the biggest things in the catholic church, and on top of that those very saints practice child abuse and homosexual relationships. also, in the past they have tried to burn all bibles and their owners. The catholic church is a complete joke and only ever created to control the people by striking them with fear.

[BigBallinStalin]

but god ALWAYS WARNS before he does things like that. God does not WANT to kill people, he always gives them a way out.

Like the IRA before they bomb a building, amirite?

[zimmah]

but god ALWAYS WARNS before he does things like that. God does not WANT to kill people, he always gives them a way out.

Like the IRA before they bomb a building, amirite?

in the time of the global flood he warned about 40 years in advance, and he continued to give warning during those 40 years the whole time.

the people laughed at noah, just like most of the people laugh at believers nowadays.

[natty dread]

if you want to follow god, you can't be homosexual.

So why did god create homosexuals?

o helping out your environment by helping 3rd world countries s perfectly fine and even encouraged, but that does not mean you should just ignore what's more important. because any help we can give is just temporary, while the help the bible can give is forever. big deal if you can cure a sickness, people are going to die sooner or later anyway, so why not give them the chance to not have to die in the first place instead?

Oh my fucking goggles, this is exactly what I was talking about, you're missing the point entirely.

What if you're wrong? What if there is no afterlife, no god? How would your "people are going to die sooner or later anyway" statement sound in that framework?

But no, good deeds don't matter, only your beliefs. That's what the bible says. So don't bother helping those poor people, just give them bibles, so when they die thanks to your indifference to their suffering, at least you can have a good conscience because you can convince yourself they are in "heaven"...

WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG? Can you even entertain the thought?

The bible does not say womans are servants to men by the way, he sais men are the head of the family, but that does not mean we should treat woman as slaves.

So as long as they aren't treated "as slaves" it's ok that they're inequal? Don't give me that bs. If one party is the "leader", the "head of the family", then THEY ARE NOT EQUAL. You still posit that, ultimately, the woman has to defer to the man's opinion. The man only "has to listen" but the man still gets the final say because that's what the bible says.

Why does it matter to god what kind of genitals we sport between our legs?

[BigBallinStalin]

I assume there are no gods, because there is no evidence of such.

I assume that after death my consciousness of this universe, my point of view as an individual, will simply cease to exist. I say this because it would be kinda fallacious to simply state "I will cease to exist", since that's not what happens after all - all the matter that makes up "me" will still exist, it will just change it's form.

I assume these things, but I don't have certain knowledge, just like I don't have certain knowledge that the universe isn't just a computer simulation, or of anything really... but the lack of certain knowledge doesn't mean that I have to consider every possibility as equally probable.

So, I like to turn the Pascal's wager argument upside down: if, after I die, it turns out there's some kind of afterlife, or continued existence of consciousness, well, that's just bonus for me; however, if it turns out that there is nothing after this life, and this is the only life I get (which I find most likely), then that just makes this life all the more precious - I don't want to waste this life by dedicating it to a god whose existence is dubious at best, or by following some kind of religious dogma based mostly on guilt and shame of our basic needs and yearnings. I want to live this unique life to the fullest, with full appreciation of the beauty of the universe.

On that matter, lots of religious people seem to feel that taking away the "creator" would make the universe somehow less special, as if the idea that the universe, or life, just "came to be" on it's own somehow makes it less magnificent, or less beautiful. I find it is exactly the opposite - if some magical being just somehow magically wished this all to existence, then it's nothing special: that kind of being could probably create millions of universes like this with no effort, like it's no big deal. But if this universe, and this life, was born by an amazingly vast amount of time and chance, it gives a whole new kind of appreciation for the beauty of this universe.

Well put, nats-D.

Can I call you "nats-D"?

[zimmah]

if you want to follow god, you can't be homosexual.

So why did god create homosexuals?

o helping out your environment by helping 3rd world countries s perfectly fine and even encouraged, but that does not mean you should just ignore what's more important. because any help we can give is just temporary, while the help the bible can give is forever. big deal if you can cure a sickness, people are going to die sooner or later anyway, so why not give them the chance to not have to die in the first place instead?

Oh my fucking goggles, this is exactly what I was talking about, you're missing the point entirely.

What if you're wrong? What if there is no afterlife, no god? How would your "people are going to die sooner or later anyway" statement sound in that framework?

But no, good deeds don't matter, only your beliefs. That's what the bible says. So don't bother helping those poor people, just give them bibles, so when they die thanks to your indifference to their suffering, at least you can have a good conscience because you can convince yourself they are in "heaven"...

WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG? Can you even entertain the thought?

The bible does not say womans are servants to men by the way, he sais men are the head of the family, but that does not mean we should treat woman as slaves.

So as long as they aren't treated "as slaves" it's ok that they're inequal? Don't give me that bs. If one party is the "leader", the "head of the family", then THEY ARE NOT EQUAL. You still posit that, ultimately, the woman has to defer to the man's opinion. The man only "has to listen" but the man still gets the final say because that's what the bible says.

Why does it matter to god what kind of genitals we sport between our legs?

there's occasions in the bible where god actually told to the men they were wrong and they had to listen to their woman, so no, god does not just look at who's men or not, and the whole reason this rule is in place is because eve tempted adam to eat from the forbidden fruit. but that does not mean we should tread all woman as trash, like for example most muslims do.

[Neoteny]

the people laughed at noah, just like most of the people laugh at believers nowadays.

:puts on persecution complex hat:

Does "most people" mean something different today than it did when I was a kid? Or are you just one of those people who think "true believers" (ie you and the people you go to church with) are the only real believers?

[Woodruff]

Or, well... we do have free will. God irrefutably presenting himself would pretty much eliminate a big portion of that.

I don't agree. As long as free will actually continues to be allowed us, individuals would worship or not worship based on their own choice.

[Woodruff]

and woodruff, you don't believe in god, and you also don't believe there's no god, now what DO you believe?

As I've stated quite plainly several times, I strongly believe that I don't know the answer to that question, but I tend to believe that there is no god because there is little evidence for it.

so instead of believing there's a god you believe the universe shaped itself and defined it's own laws, and that's a more logic assumption then to just assume a divine being of unlimited energy did this?

There is more evidence that the universe shaped itself than there is that a divine being of unlimited energy did so, so yes...that's a more logical assumption.

[Woodruff]

also god gave us the bible for a reason. if god wouldn't have given us the bible and would not have sent his son to earth, then we wouldn't have been able to tell if there was a god or not. and in that case i too would have said: "i don't know how the universe started, and we probably will never know" however, that is not the case. god gave us the option to know it, and he told us we should study it, so i do it.

God gave us this book that says God exists, which is how he was able to give us this book. That's some pretty circular logic you've got there.

[Woodruff]

the bible states the ruler of this world is the devil, and no i don't mean obama is the devil, he's just a figurehead and a puppet. the devil is really pulling the strings.

At first I thought you were joking here...and then I realized you weren't.