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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:58 am

GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:I am in the US for college right now, but I'd certainly be in the streets.


In your opinion, does Greece have a spending problem? or is it just the revenue side?
Considering the budget as it was should've led to a surplus, it was the revenue side in Greece's case. The loss of nearly a third of tax income to corruption was devastating.


how big a role did the global recession play? How big of any impact?
I would say the two are of equal impact, since the recession hit the tourism industry hard, adding to the already massive deficit due to the tax evasions.


as well as the result being less tax-payers and more receiving benefits, right? kinda snowball effect
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby GreecePwns on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:13 am

Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:In your opinion, does Greece have a spending problem? or is it just the revenue side?
Considering the budget as it was should've led to a surplus, it was the revenue side in Greece's case. The loss of nearly a third of tax income to corruption was devastating.

how big a role did the global recession play? How big of any impact?
I would say the two are of equal impact, since the recession hit the tourism industry hard, adding to the already massive deficit due to the tax evasions.

as well as the result being less tax-payers and more receiving benefits, right? kinda snowball effect
Really any recession would have been significantly reduced without the unnecessary loss. By the end, the economy will have shrunk by 3 percent of GDP due to the combined effects of the two, while the surplus would have been slightly less than 1 percent of GDP.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:23 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Considering the budget as it was should've led to a surplus, it was the revenue side in Greece's case. The loss of nearly a third of tax income to corruption was devastating.

how big a role did the global recession play? How big of any impact?
I would say the two are of equal impact, since the recession hit the tourism industry hard, adding to the already massive deficit due to the tax evasions.

as well as the result being less tax-payers and more receiving benefits, right? kinda snowball effect
Really any recession would have been significantly reduced without the unnecessary loss. By the end, the economy will have shrunk by 3 percent of GDP due to the combined effects of the two, while the surplus would have been slightly less than 1 percent of GDP.


so, in the end, it sounds like your system there would work perfect, so long as the economy never takes a shit, and your people in power do not get too corrupt...and the businesses pay more in taxes, or their "fair share" according to the people in power that blame it on businesses
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby GreecePwns on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:34 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:how big a role did the global recession play? How big of any impact?
I would say the two are of equal impact, since the recession hit the tourism industry hard, adding to the already massive deficit due to the tax evasions.

as well as the result being less tax-payers and more receiving benefits, right? kinda snowball effect
Really any recession would have been significantly reduced without the unnecessary loss. By the end, the economy will have shrunk by 3 percent of GDP due to the combined effects of the two, while the surplus would have been slightly less than 1 percent of GDP.


so, in the end, it sounds like your system there would work perfect, so long as the economy never takes a shit, and your people in power do not get too corrupt...and the businesses pay more in taxes, or their "fair share" according to the people in power that blame it on businesses
In Greece, business' "fair share" is considered 25 percent and here it is considered 15 to 35 percent federal, plus up to 10 state, plus up to 9 in certain cities. Take from that what you may. If businesses can get away with paying 7 or 8 percent as opposed to 25, the government's budget will obviously be in trouble.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:47 am

A brief question to reflect upon - If the Greek government is corrupt such that it permits businesses to not pay taxes (by the way - this is true - Greek businesses AND INDIVIDUALS! are extremely lax in paying taxes), then why is the Greek government spending so much on social programs? It seems to me that the Greek government engaged in some rather simple fiscal irresponsibility.

Now... replace the word "Greek" with the word "US" and you see where my concerns lie.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby khazalid on Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:50 am

so is obamacare repealed yet?
had i been wise, i would have seen that her simplicity cost her a fortune
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:51 am

khazalid wrote:so is obamacare repealed yet?


Nope. And it's not going to be repealed any time soon.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:18 am

thegreekdog wrote:A brief question to reflect upon - If the Greek government is corrupt such that it permits businesses to not pay taxes (by the way - this is true - Greek businesses AND INDIVIDUALS! are extremely lax in paying taxes), then why is the Greek government spending so much on social programs? It seems to me that the Greek government engaged in some rather simple fiscal irresponsibility.

Now... replace the word "Greek" with the word "US" and you see where my concerns lie.
It wouldn't be such a problem if the taxes were simply collected, which I would assume with the Franco-German Power Gra...I mean bailout the government will be more stringent with its tax collection. It would then be able to afford all its social programs and more.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby Mr_Adams on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:22 am

I'm glad we can at least agree that the bail out was stupid. ;)
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Aradhus on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:05 pm

Night Strike wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The highly praised British NHS is going to become more competitive and allow doctors to make more decisions to cut out bureaucrats. Yet the US wants MORE government control? Maybe we should actually look across the pond and figure out big government DOES NOT WORK!
Please explain the difference between the health care system resulting in the yellow line on this graph and those that result in the others.

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Easy: The US has the most innovative and effective care in the world, especially when it comes to specialized treatments. Socialized systems might work better for routine care for all people, but no other country in the world can match the specialized practices we have here in the US. That's why people come TO the US for treatments rather than go to other countries.

Aradhus wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The highly praised British NHS is going to become more competitive and allow doctors to make more decisions to cut out bureaucrats. Yet the US wants MORE government control? Maybe we should actually look across the pond and figure out big government DOES NOT WORK!


It is prudent to judge actions on results, not assumptions.


So the results are that relatively simple procedures for non-life threatening issues are too expensive for socialized medicine, so the government has to cut them and force the "insured" to live their lives with more pain and suffering that could cause other long-term issues. Sounds great!


Exactly what the health insurance industry is doing in the US. Also, we have private healthcare in the UK.

Furthermore, you ignored what I said and ran fullsteam ahaead into rightwing talkingpointorama. How can we judge results, when there are none as the plan has yet to be enacted?

Granted, I'm fully aware that you care not about results, and facts.

You were probably part of the crowd that was screaming Obama's a socialist, secret muslim, tyrant, here to take our guns away and enslave us all, before he was even inaugurated as President. Hell, you're probably still in that camp.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:13 pm

Aradhus wrote:Exactly what the health insurance industry is doing in the US. Also, we have private healthcare in the UK.

Furthermore, you ignored what I said and ran fullsteam ahaead into rightwing talkingpointorama. How can we judge results, when there are none as the plan has yet to be enacted?

Granted, I'm fully aware that you care not about results, and facts.

You were probably part of the crowd that was screaming Obama's a socialist, secret muslim, tyrant, here to take our guns away and enslave us all, before he was even inaugurated as President. Hell, you're probably still in that camp.


So we have to implement a plan on the federal level (making it VERY hard to repeal) in order to find out if it will work? Ludicrous! I say we look to the other countries that have socialized medicine and learn from the fact that they don't work, especially when it comes to innovative treatments of hard to defeat diseases. Furthermore, the beauty of our federal system in the US is that states can choose to implement socialized medicine in their own states as a method to test policies. So what happened when Massachusetts did that? It's already costing the state more money than anticipated. And yet you think something like this could work across the entire nation? And I'm the one ignoring facts? :lol:

By the way, I've only called Obama a socialist, none of the other things you've listed.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Aradhus on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:29 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Aradhus wrote:Exactly what the health insurance industry is doing in the US. Also, we have private healthcare in the UK.

Furthermore, you ignored what I said and ran fullsteam ahaead into rightwing talkingpointorama. How can we judge results, when there are none as the plan has yet to be enacted?

Granted, I'm fully aware that you care not about results, and facts.

You were probably part of the crowd that was screaming Obama's a socialist, secret muslim, tyrant, here to take our guns away and enslave us all, before he was even inaugurated as President. Hell, you're probably still in that camp.

And I'm the one ignoring facts? :lol:

Yes.
We have private healthcare in the UK. Your country is poorly ranked in terms of healthcare overall, but cherrypick all you want. So if we were looking at other countires to see what works and what doesnt, We'd be looking almost primarily at countires which have socialised medicine, as overall they are ranked higher than the US.

Also, Obama being a socialist is so egregiously moronic. The results are in, the evidence is there, which once again you're ignoring. Obama isn't even liberal. He took liberal agendas, and then fought against liberal ideas in those agendas, and pursued republican solutions.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Aradhus on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:06 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Aradhus wrote:Exactly what the health insurance industry is doing in the US. Also, we have private healthcare in the UK.

Furthermore, you ignored what I said and ran fullsteam ahaead into rightwing talkingpointorama. How can we judge results, when there are none as the plan has yet to be enacted?

Granted, I'm fully aware that you care not about results, and facts.

You were probably part of the crowd that was screaming Obama's a socialist, secret muslim, tyrant, here to take our guns away and enslave us all, before he was even inaugurated as President. Hell, you're probably still in that camp.


So we have to implement a plan on the federal level (making it VERY hard to repeal) in order to find out if it will work? Ludicrous!

Also, mr strawman, that wasn't what I said. I said we judge the results, not judge based on assumptions, (that the plan will be successful, because it fits my ideology) of a program that isn't even in place yet.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:27 pm

I kind of want to see what happens with Obamacare. I've read a lot of conflicting things, mostly having to do with how much the program will cost and how much taxes will cost relative to the program. Suffice it to say, the cost seems to be staggering as compared to the relative value of the plan to the common person.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:28 pm

Aradhus wrote: So if we were looking at other countires to see what works and what doesnt, We'd be looking almost primarily at countires which have socialised medicine


Incorrect. Countries with a private healthcare model but mandatory purchase requirements - such as Switzerland and Singapore (and, to a lesser extent, Holland) - are generally ranked much higher in key measurement categories than the factory-hospitals of Britain/Australia/New Zealand/Canada.

The factory-hospital model is almost unique to "the Big 5 Minus 1" of the English-speaking world and has never been viewed by anyone as a best-practices approach, owing to the long queues for treatment, often dilapidated/non-hygienic state of facilities, lack of adequate staffing levels or distribution of care, limitations on access to advanced equipment and pharmaceuticals, etc.

In that sense, Obamacare was probably the best approach in its emulation of the Swiss model; that is, no fundamental change to the style, modernity or delivery of US healthcare that would diminish down to factory-hospital levels the quality of service to the 92% that had access to it, but extension of that service to the 8% who had no access and were dragging down national averages by their lack of care. Though, I think one can still be legitimately opposed to it if one weighs personal freedom above extending police authority to health insurance corporations. But, ultimately, that's an ideological - not policy - debate.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Aradhus on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:39 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Aradhus wrote: So if we were looking at other countires to see what works and what doesnt, We'd be looking almost primarily at countires which have socialised medicine


Incorrect. Countries with a private healthcare model but mandatory purchase requirements - such as Switzerland and Singapore (and, to a lesser extent, Holland) - are generally ranked much higher than the factory-hospitals of Britain/Australia/New Zealand/Canada.

The factory-hospital model is almost unique to "the Big 5 Minus 1" of the English-speaking world and has never been viewed by anyone as a best-practices approach, owing to the long queues for treatment, often dilapidated/non-hygienic state of facilities, lack of adequate staffing levels or distribution of care, limitations on access to advanced equipment and pharmaceuticals, etc.



So you're pro obamacare? Mandating that citizens buy their insurance from health insurance corporations?

Also, notice the word almost in reference to looking at what works and what does not work.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:45 pm

Aradhus wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Aradhus wrote: So if we were looking at other countires to see what works and what doesnt, We'd be looking almost primarily at countires which have socialised medicine


Incorrect. Countries with a private healthcare model but mandatory purchase requirements - such as Switzerland and Singapore (and, to a lesser extent, Holland) - are generally ranked much higher than the factory-hospitals of Britain/Australia/New Zealand/Canada.

The factory-hospital model is almost unique to "the Big 5 Minus 1" of the English-speaking world and has never been viewed by anyone as a best-practices approach, owing to the long queues for treatment, often dilapidated/non-hygienic state of facilities, lack of adequate staffing levels or distribution of care, limitations on access to advanced equipment and pharmaceuticals, etc.



So you're pro obamacare? Mandating that citizens buy their insurance from health insurance corporations?

Also, notice the word almost in reference to looking at what works and what does not work.


1 - I edited my post for clarification of your question.
2 - I note the word "almost." We would not "almost primarily" be looking at the factory-hospital model. We would "almost not at all' be looking at the factory-hospital model.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:53 pm

GreecePwns wrote:I didn't deny any of that was happening. You're right in saying that. You're wrong in assuming that this is all because of excessive spending. That system that the countries I mentioned also use isn't what brought Greece here.The Greek government would be running a surplus if it weren't for cronyism in the ND government before the collapse.

And your Tea Party case would be comparable if say, the Tea Party politicians voted for government takeover of healthcare. A newly-elected democratic socialist party voted for austerity. They have a right to riot.

But, really, keep going. It's getting rather comical now.



Isn't Greece's problems also due to a lack of enforcement for proper taxation? For example, there was this musician who made hundreds of thousands and put himself down as a janitor, $15,000 income for his taxes. I heard similar stories which focused on such cases, so it seems it isn't just the government, but also many Greeks themselves who cheated the lax tax system.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:54 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:I didn't deny any of that was happening. You're right in saying that. You're wrong in assuming that this is all because of excessive spending. That system that the countries I mentioned also use isn't what brought Greece here.The Greek government would be running a surplus if it weren't for cronyism in the ND government before the collapse.

And your Tea Party case would be comparable if say, the Tea Party politicians voted for government takeover of healthcare. A newly-elected democratic socialist party voted for austerity. They have a right to riot.

But, really, keep going. It's getting rather comical now.



Isn't Greece's problems also due to a lack of enforcement for proper taxation? For example, there was this musician who made hundreds of thousands and put himself down as a janitor, $15,000 income for his taxes. I heard similar stories which focused on such cases, so it seems it isn't just the government, but also many Greeks themselves who cheated the lax tax system.


MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:58 pm

Oh, ye Greeks! Why have you forsaken your motherland?
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:02 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Oh, ye Greeks! Why have you forsaken your motherland?


My grandfather told me that all the hard-working Greeks left Greece in the early to mid-1900s. He said the ones that are left are lazy and stupid.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby Aradhus on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:11 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Aradhus wrote: So if we were looking at other countires to see what works and what doesnt, We'd be looking almost primarily at countires which have socialised medicine


Incorrect. Countries with a private healthcare model but mandatory purchase requirements - such as Switzerland and Singapore (and, to a lesser extent, Holland) - are generally ranked much higher than the factory-hospitals of Britain/Australia/New Zealand/Canada.

The factory-hospital model is almost unique to "the Big 5 Minus 1" of the English-speaking world and has never been viewed by anyone as a best-practices approach, owing to the long queues for treatment, often dilapidated/non-hygienic state of facilities, lack of adequate staffing levels or distribution of care, limitations on access to advanced equipment and pharmaceuticals, etc.



So you're pro obamacare? Mandating that citizens buy their insurance from health insurance corporations?

Also, notice the word almost in reference to looking at what works and what does not work.


1 - I edited my post for clarification of your question.
2 - I note the word "almost." We would not "almost primarily" be looking at the factory-hospital model. We would "almost not at all' be looking at the factory-hospital model.



The problem we're having is that you refuse to frame your responses in an honest manner, or not be hyperbolic. Countries that have socialised medicine, also have private hospitals, private healthcare, private insurance, and on and on. So we wouldn't be looking at "the factory-hospital model", we'd be looking at the countries overall and seeing what works and what does not work.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:21 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Oh, ye Greeks! Why have you forsaken your motherland?


My grandfather told me that all the hard-working Greeks left Greece in the early to mid-1900s. He said the ones that are left are lazy and stupid.

Perhaps, there is some wisdom to that.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 12th

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:30 pm

Aradhus wrote:Countries that have socialised medicine, also have private hospitals, private healthcare, private insurance, and on and on. So we wouldn't be looking at "the factory-hospital model", we'd be looking at the countries overall and seeing what works and what does not work.


Privately-operated healthcare is not the access model generally and most commonly available to the majority of the population in factory-hospital countries. This is a broad-based discussion, not a cooperatively-written professional article that BBS is going to submit to JAMA once it reaches 160 pages.

Overall, a factory-hospital country like Canada or the UK really has nothing to bring to the debate versus a country like Switzerland or Holland. When Ferrari designs a new car they - generally - don't look and see what worked best in the construction of the Yugo.
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Re: Repealing ObamaCare: Jan. 19th

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:33 pm

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong (because, you know, you guys have to be asked to do that... you'd never do that on your own)... Obamacare is not the public option. It's "the government helps you purchase health insurance from health insurance companies." It's kind of like Medicare, but for more people. It's almost like a sort of bailout for health insurance companies.
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