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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:34 am

Falkomagno wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Falkomagno wrote:not evidence that a welfare state affects negatively the performance of the economy (A. B. Atkinson, "Incomes and the Welfare State", 1995), but at the contrary, countries that 50 years before applied welfare states measurements have been decreasing their poverty rates.


What does this have to do with this thread?

As GP and others have noted, the slug Obama has proposed a corporate welfare state, not a social welfare state.

    Corporate Welfare State = supported by the slug Obama, the mega-corporations, the plutocracy, the banking elite, the military-industrial complex and Pauly Shore
    Social Welfare State = supported by Nader, the Left, working families, labourers, trade unions, kittens, attractive women

I assume you must support the slug Obama and the corporate banking elite/military-industrial complex?

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Aradhus wrote:I would never have been conceived, and you guys wouldn't be reading this post.


lucky us



I'm really gad that you point that out. since people opposing Obama care is not the same that people opposing universal health care. There is people (as phatascotty) who oppose universal health care only because they think that is a lot of money investment in useless bums...and there is people opposed to obamacare because they think that is not a universal healthcare program but a evil corporate scheme to monopolize the medical services and tax the middle class, as saxiton.

With pahatascotty, there is nothing to debate, since he is a fanatic against anything which can remotely smells like socialism or wealth transfer, but with saxiton there is room to debate in the relevant matter if obama care is really a government initiative aimed to universal health care or just a excuse to burden even more the taxpayer in favor of big corporations.


I am for freedom. all your other bullshit that you say about me, I shake my head as I read. It's just a principle of freedom, and of the constitution, and no amount of bleeding heart is going to turn me against freedom/respecting other peoples freedom.

This is how freedom is taken away. We have to protect it at any cost. Do not take this as an ultimate though. I am not at all against gov't assistance or charity, and I know people need help sometimes. Freedom has a price, and what I am hearing from the left is that they are sick of paying it because the burden is too much.
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Green Tea

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:56 am

Green Tea -

Tea Party leader Dr. Ron Paul and Green Party icon Ralph Nader announce a new alliance to challenge "warfare state"; Nader calls Tea Party "alternative to corporate Republicans" and "great allies of many Progressives"

asked if he were sitting in Congress today "would you vote to repeal Obama's healthcare law?" Nader said "YES!"

other highlights:
Ron Paul: "the bipartisanship here in Washington endorses corporatism which Ralph and I disapprove of"
Ralph Nader: "the Fed is out of control - it's not under any legal controls Congress can enforce - look at the bailouts over the weekend of Citigroup ... it needs an audit and Ron Paul is teaming up with hyper-progressive Senator Sanders to bring the Fed under control ... the Fed is a private bank government thumbing its nose at Congress - its worst nightmare is Dr. Ron Paul"
Ron Paul: "we, as libertarians, may not approve of some of these medical programs but is that the place to start to cut? we should start to cut by bringing the troops home"
Ralph Nader: "as the great congressman Ron Paul said - memorably - a few days ago, the Bush-Cheney regime lied their way to the Iraq War"

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwIZ4syCFLc
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Green Tea

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:03 am

saxitoxin wrote:Green Tea -

Tea Party leader Dr. Ron Paul and Green Party icon Ralph Nader announce a new alliance to challenge "warfare state"; Nader calls Tea Party "alternative to corporate Republicans" and "great allies of many Progressives"

asked if he were sitting in Congress today "would you vote to repeal Obama's healthcare law?" Nader said "YES!"

other highlights:
Ron Paul: "the bipartisanship here in Washington endorses corporatism which Ralph and I disapprove of"
Ralph Nader: "the Fed is out of control - it's not under any legal controls Congress can enforce - look at the bailouts over the weekend of Citigroup ... it needs an audit and Ron Paul is teaming up with hyper-progressive Senator Sanders to bring the Fed under control ... the Fed is a private bank government thumbing its nose at Congress - its worst nightmare is Dr. Ron Paul"
Ron Paul: "we, as libertarians, may not approve of some of these medical programs but is that the place to start to cut? we should start to cut by bringing the troops home"
Ralph Nader: "as the great congressman Ron Paul said - memorably - a few days ago, the Bush-Cheney regime lied their way to the Iraq War"

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwIZ4syCFLc


Image

If any one of these guys are president, I will quit my job and volunteer.
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Re: Green Tea

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:13 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Green Tea -

Tea Party leader Dr. Ron Paul and Green Party icon Ralph Nader announce a new alliance to challenge "warfare state"; Nader calls Tea Party "alternative to corporate Republicans" and "great allies of many Progressives"

asked if he were sitting in Congress today "would you vote to repeal Obama's healthcare law?" Nader said "YES!"

other highlights:
Ron Paul: "the bipartisanship here in Washington endorses corporatism which Ralph and I disapprove of"
Ralph Nader: "the Fed is out of control - it's not under any legal controls Congress can enforce - look at the bailouts over the weekend of Citigroup ... it needs an audit and Ron Paul is teaming up with hyper-progressive Senator Sanders to bring the Fed under control ... the Fed is a private bank government thumbing its nose at Congress - its worst nightmare is Dr. Ron Paul"
Ron Paul: "we, as libertarians, may not approve of some of these medical programs but is that the place to start to cut? we should start to cut by bringing the troops home"
Ralph Nader: "as the great congressman Ron Paul said - memorably - a few days ago, the Bush-Cheney regime lied their way to the Iraq War"

Image
[sic]!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwIZ4syCFLc


Image

If any one of these guys are president, I will quit my job and volunteer.


:o :P

I'd sign-up for Ron Paul a lot slower than I signed-up for Dennis Kucinich and his hot-as-balls English wife ... but I would sign up. :)
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:39 am

The reason being, even if I disagreed with a particular policy, at least the framework would be respected. We can have disagreements, we can not have people's freedom being infringed. If the gov't can not do something without infringing freedom, it should not do it at all.

btw, Susan is a total MILF
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:47 am

Phatscotty wrote:btw, Trish is a total MILF


THAT'S TRISH'S MOM, A-HOLE! :x
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:50 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:btw, Trish is a total MILF


THAT'S TRISH'S MOM, A-HOLE! :x


er Susan, I keep getting them mixed up back-stage
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:02 am

Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:09 am

Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


I saw this yesterday and I wanted to know where Player57382 went. I wanted to say "SEE! SEEEE!!!?!?!?!?!"
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Woodruff on Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:26 am

Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


If that's accurate (and I have no reason to believe it is not), that's fucking horseshit. It's this sort of cronyism that really pisses me off about politics. Why can't we just do what's the right fucking thing (granting that we will disagree on precisely what that is, of course) and everyone buys into that?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Night Strike on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:21 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


If that's accurate (and I have no reason to believe it is not), that's fucking horseshit. It's this sort of cronyism that really pisses me off about politics. Why can't we just do what's the right fucking thing (granting that we will disagree on precisely what that is, of course) and everyone buys into that?


It's just another piece of evidence that the ones who passed the law know it's a horrible law and are working hard to protect their friends while punishing their opponents.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:09 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


If that's accurate (and I have no reason to believe it is not), that's fucking horseshit. It's this sort of cronyism that really pisses me off about politics. Why can't we just do what's the right fucking thing (granting that we will disagree on precisely what that is, of course) and everyone buys into that?


Um, isn't this just the latest of "the best health care in the world" waivers? I heard Mcdonals got one (don't quote me) and Wal Mart is trying, along with many others. In fact, lets make a list of peeps who get waivers.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Woodruff on Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:54 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


If that's accurate (and I have no reason to believe it is not), that's fucking horseshit. It's this sort of cronyism that really pisses me off about politics. Why can't we just do what's the right fucking thing (granting that we will disagree on precisely what that is, of course) and everyone buys into that?


It's just another piece of evidence that the ones who passed the law know it's a horrible law and are working hard to protect their friends while punishing their opponents.


If this were an isolated instance, I might tend to agree with you. But it's not. It's just another piece of evidence that the Senate believes that they and their friends should be held above the law, that's all it's evidence for.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:15 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


If that's accurate (and I have no reason to believe it is not), that's fucking horseshit. It's this sort of cronyism that really pisses me off about politics. Why can't we just do what's the right fucking thing (granting that we will disagree on precisely what that is, of course) and everyone buys into that?


It's just another piece of evidence that the ones who passed the law know it's a horrible law and are working hard to protect their friends while punishing their opponents.


If this were an isolated instance, I might tend to agree with you. But it's not. It's just another piece of evidence that the Senate believes that they and their friends should be held above the law, that's all it's evidence for.


That, while true, can also be seen as, if you look at it from the perspective of what they told "the rest of us" in 2009, they lie to us in a way that we could never possibly trust them with anything else?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby bedub1 on Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:18 pm

I think anything and everything politicians pass must apply to them first for a 5 year period before it can be moved to apply to the general public.

Like social security. And this healthcare.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Night Strike on Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:37 pm

Woodruff wrote:If this were an isolated instance, I might tend to agree with you. But it's not. It's just another piece of evidence that the Senate believes that they and their friends should be held above the law, that's all it's evidence for.


It's the executive branch making the waivers, not the Congress.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:23 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


If that's accurate (and I have no reason to believe it is not), that's fucking horseshit. It's this sort of cronyism that really pisses me off about politics. Why can't we just do what's the right fucking thing (granting that we will disagree on precisely what that is, of course) and everyone buys into that?


It's just another piece of evidence that the ones who passed the law know it's a horrible law and are working hard to protect their friends while punishing their opponents.


If this were an isolated instance, I might tend to agree with you. But it's not. It's just another piece of evidence that the Senate believes that they and their friends should be held above the law, that's all it's evidence for.


Or, just companies that donate a lot of money to them?

and on friends, i did not know the Senate had so many big ones (like, the ones that can afford it the most...)

One thing is sure about these waivers. Obama rewarded his union pals quite well. Some 15 unions and union healthcare or financial fund and insurance providers fill the list of companies and groups that will not have to operate under Obamacare's destructive rules.


* The Service Employees Benefit Fund
* United Food and Commercial Workers Allied Trade Health & Welfare Trust Fund
* International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Union No. 195
* Asbestos Workers Local 53 Welfare Fund
* Employees Security Funds
* Plumbers & Pipefitters Local 123 Welfare Fund
* United Food and Commercial Workers Local 227
* United Food and Commercial Workers Maximus Local 455
* Service Employees International Union Local 25
* United Food and Commercial Workers Local 1262
* Musicians Health Fund Local 802
* Hospitality Benefit Fund Local 17
* Transport Workers Union
* United Federation of Teachers Welfare Fund
* International Union of Painters and Allied Trades (AFL-CIO)
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:52 pm

Another government official says the law won't decrease costs and can't guarantee people can keep the plans they like, both of which were direct promises during the debate for passage.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Two of the central promises of President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law are unlikely to be fulfilled, Medicare's independent economic expert told Congress on Wednesday.

The landmark legislation probably won't hold costs down, and it won't let everybody keep their current health insurance if they like it, Chief Actuary Richard Foster told the House Budget Committee. His office is responsible for independent long-range cost estimates.

Foster's assessment came a day after Obama in his State of the Union message told lawmakers that he's open to improvements in the law, but unwilling to rehash the health care debate of the past two years. Republicans want to repeal the landmark legislation that provides coverage to more than 30 million people now uninsured, but lack the votes.

Foster was asked by Rep. Tom McClintock, R-Calif., for a simple true or false response on two of the main assertions made by supporters of the law: that it will bring down unsustainable medical costs and will let people keep their current health insurance if they like it.

On the costs issue, "I would say false, more so than true," Foster responded.

As for people getting to keep their coverage, "not true in all cases."

Foster was a thorn in the side to the administration throughout the health care debate, doubting that Medicare cuts would prove to be politically sustainable and raising other questions. An equal opportunity skeptic, he was also a bane to the George W. Bush administration during the debate that led to creation of the Medicare prescription drug benefit in 2003. Obama White House officials dispute his analysis and predict that he will be proven wrong about the health care law. Republicans hang on his every word.

The comments Wednesday were unusually direct because Foster generally delivers his analysis in complicated technical memos.

Foster says analysis by his office shows that the health care law will raise the nation's health care tab modestly because newly insured people will be getting medical services they would have otherwise gone without.

Costs could also increase if Medicare cuts to hospitals, nursing homes and home health agencies turn out to be politically unsustainable over the years. The actuary's office has projected those cuts would eventually force about 15 percent of providers into the red. The health care law funnels savings from the Medicare cuts to provide coverage to uninsured workers and their families.

As for people getting to keep their health insurance plan, Foster's office is projecting that more than 7 million Medicare recipients in private Medicare Advantage plans will eventually have to find other coverage, cutting enrollment in the plans by about half.

The health care law gradually cuts generous government payments to the plans, so insurers are expected to raise premiums or even drop out. And the main reason seniors have flocked to the private plans is that they offer lower out-of-pocket costs.

Medicare recipients who lose private coverage would still be guaranteed coverage in the traditional program, but they would likely have to take out a supplementary insurance plan for gaps in their coverage.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hCT4GhKaleCpy570YTLr9p7nq54Q?docId=7a1abd4a6937454f90aa34acf72c9870
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:31 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:Friends of the President get a pass (non participation in the wonderful new scheme).
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/seiu-lo ... chapter-wa


If that's accurate (and I have no reason to believe it is not), that's fucking horseshit. It's this sort of cronyism that really pisses me off about politics. Why can't we just do what's the right fucking thing (granting that we will disagree on precisely what that is, of course) and everyone buys into that?


It's just another piece of evidence that the ones who passed the law know it's a horrible law and are working hard to protect their friends while punishing their opponents.


If this were an isolated instance, I might tend to agree with you. But it's not. It's just another piece of evidence that the Senate believes that they and their friends should be held above the law, that's all it's evidence for.


That, while true, can also be seen as, if you look at it from the perspective of what they told "the rest of us" in 2009, they lie to us in a way that we could never possibly trust them with anything else?


You somehow have the belief that I don't consider them a bunch of liars and scoundrels (with only very limited exceptions)?
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:If this were an isolated instance, I might tend to agree with you. But it's not. It's just another piece of evidence that the Senate believes that they and their friends should be held above the law, that's all it's evidence for.


It's the executive branch making the waivers, not the Congress.


IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE, SURE. God damn Night Strike, I know you desperately want to make this a partisan thing, but it's just not. They're all a bagful of the same diarrheac crap.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:23 pm

Not to defend Nightstrike (because I also don't think it's a partisan thing), but it's just really strange to have the president exempt his "friends" when also selling the bill as a good thing.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:41 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Not to defend Nightstrike (because I also don't think it's a partisan thing), but it's just really strange to have the president exempt his "friends" when also selling the bill as a good thing.


It's not strange so much as it's disgusting.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:55 am

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Not to defend Nightstrike (because I also don't think it's a partisan thing), but it's just really strange to have the president exempt his "friends" when also selling the bill as a good thing.


It's not strange so much as it's disgusting.


I mean strange because ostensibly the president is trying to sell the public on this idea (and also get re-elected), but he's chosen to subject himself to criticism by exempting his friends. I would not be surprised if the exemption disappears (for political expediency it certainly should).
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:20 pm

Night Strike wrote:Another government official says the law won't decrease costs and can't guarantee people can keep the plans they like, both of which were direct promises during the debate for passage.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Two of the central promises of President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law are unlikely to be fulfilled, Medicare's independent economic expert told Congress on Wednesday.

The landmark legislation probably won't hold costs down, and it won't let everybody keep their current health insurance if they like it, Chief Actuary Richard Foster told the House Budget Committee. His office is responsible for independent long-range cost estimates.

Foster's assessment came a day after Obama in his State of the Union message told lawmakers that he's open to improvements in the law, but unwilling to rehash the health care debate of the past two years. Republicans want to repeal the landmark legislation that provides coverage to more than 30 million people now uninsured, but lack the votes.

Foster was asked by Rep. Tom McClintock, R-Calif., for a simple true or false response on two of the main assertions made by supporters of the law: that it will bring down unsustainable medical costs and will let people keep their current health insurance if they like it.

On the costs issue, "I would say false, more so than true," Foster responded.

As for people getting to keep their coverage, "not true in all cases."

Foster was a thorn in the side to the administration throughout the health care debate, doubting that Medicare cuts would prove to be politically sustainable and raising other questions. An equal opportunity skeptic, he was also a bane to the George W. Bush administration during the debate that led to creation of the Medicare prescription drug benefit in 2003. Obama White House officials dispute his analysis and predict that he will be proven wrong about the health care law. Republicans hang on his every word.

The comments Wednesday were unusually direct because Foster generally delivers his analysis in complicated technical memos.

Foster says analysis by his office shows that the health care law will raise the nation's health care tab modestly because newly insured people will be getting medical services they would have otherwise gone without.

Costs could also increase if Medicare cuts to hospitals, nursing homes and home health agencies turn out to be politically unsustainable over the years. The actuary's office has projected those cuts would eventually force about 15 percent of providers into the red. The health care law funnels savings from the Medicare cuts to provide coverage to uninsured workers and their families.

As for people getting to keep their health insurance plan, Foster's office is projecting that more than 7 million Medicare recipients in private Medicare Advantage plans will eventually have to find other coverage, cutting enrollment in the plans by about half.

The health care law gradually cuts generous government payments to the plans, so insurers are expected to raise premiums or even drop out. And the main reason seniors have flocked to the private plans is that they offer lower out-of-pocket costs.

Medicare recipients who lose private coverage would still be guaranteed coverage in the traditional program, but they would likely have to take out a supplementary insurance plan for gaps in their coverage.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hCT4GhKaleCpy570YTLr9p7nq54Q?docId=7a1abd4a6937454f90aa34acf72c9870


Oh, the irony.

Let's defeat "socialized healthcare" by showing how it will cost people who are already ON "socialized healthcare."

Can anyone honestly say a senior citizen DESERVES socialized healthcare more than anyone of any other age? No!

Arguments that they "paid in all their lives" are b.s. since they've long since used up the parts they paid for, especially since costs have gone up.

I'd rather a few more people be able to get a checkup when needed than pay for anyone's prescriptions. I live in Florida, I've worked inputting medical stuff, I know that some seniors are on 20 or more 'scripts, sometimes for a freakin' vitamin supplement that isn't going to be that much better than they could get over the counter, but because it's "paid for by Medicare" and requires a doc to do blood tests now and again, the doc prescribes it.

I'm not saying senior citizens shouldn't have health care. I'm saying, arguing that socially ensuring a 27, 38, or 55 year old will hurt the social insurance for an 85 year old is a bit crappy. It's better to insure a 70 year old's pacemaker or heart transplant than let a 45 year old get some gall bladder surgery, huh??? Really????

If we should repeal "Socialized Healthcare" then we should repeal it ALL: No medicare, no medicaid, and limits on VA care where they cannot get any treatment or checkups UNLESS it's directly related to a WAR WOUND.

But, as was pointed out, Congress of either party wouldn't do that, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo because seniors would be outraged and vote them out. The very same seniors who're outraged now at the audacity of those of us who wouldn't mind an occasional doctor visit without losing our house to DARE to request a little of that insurance money to benefit us now that many Americans don't have jobs that come with medical benefits (Congress allowed those jobs to get shipped overseas, often to areas where people don't expect to get medical treatment anyway).

That is Congress - of both parties - protecting themselves and their friends, not "the administration." Meanwhile, they (Congress) get a platinum plan paid for by whom? The taxpayer. Ultra Socialized healthcare - but in a fascist way.

So.. if congress is going to "repeal" socialized healthcare, let them repeal it ALL...or none.
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Re: Socialized Healthcare: Repealed in the House

Postby esiemer on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:53 pm

i wish i had time to read this whole thread... but ill just start by saying the last post by stahrgazer was pretty spot-on.

also, somewhere on the first page or two someone said something about people from other countries wouldn't admit it if they didn't like their healthcare. Well, i travel quite a bit, and since im in the medical profession i always ask people 2 questions:
1) which country do you think has the best healthcare system in the world?
2) would you trade your countries system with the one we have in USA?

the most common answers to #1 are "France", "Cuba" and "I'm not sure, but probably one of the Scandanavian or European countries"
the answer to question #2 is almost always "hell no", but occasionally it is just "no" and i have had 2 or 3 people say "yes" but they were from Guatemala, El Salvador and The Solomon Islands, so their systems are third world.

I've only asked 50 or so people so far, from about 30 different countries, so I'm not claiming its scientific. but i am surprised at how different the response is compared to what politicians told me it would be.
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