Logic dictates that there is a God!

[got tonkaed]

yeah that and the letter to a Christian nation....at least those are the two ive read, i would assume hes probably done other stuff as well, but nothing that ive read that would really be relavant to the discussion.

I just brought it up because we seem to both make some common arguments to the book and was wondering if you had happened across it, which apparently you have in part.

[2dimes]

Why wouldn't a perfect god have foreseen this (knowing and seeing all) and prevented his word from being bastardized?

Why is that important and what would be the need?

It's just a book made up of a bunch of smaller ones. Some of it is histories passed down orally, like everywhere else untill some guy wrote things down. Some of it is letters a guy wrote to his buddies that he had heard were getting the wrong idea as they formed religious churches.

This is the book that is going to save all mankind...isn't that kinda important?

Where did this idea come from? Most of the guys in the book didn't have a book for that.

Doesn't he WANT everyone saved? Wouldn't he do everything in his infinite power to make sure that his message isn't altered and twisted? He IS capable of this isn't he?

Besides...if this were really a gods words, why the book? Why the errors? Why the translations and chances for mistakes? Why not just a giant face in the sky and speak to everyone at once. THAT is what a god would do. Not come to people in dreams and magical bushes.

The book says he'll do that, go wait on the porch.

[Backglass]

It's just a book made up of a bunch of smaller ones. Some of it is histories passed down orally, like everywhere else untill some guy wrote things down.

Where did this idea come from? Most of the guys in the book didn't have a book for that.

So the book is NOT the supreme word of a god then, but just stories from ancient people? OK...I'll buy that.

Why not just a giant face in the sky and speak to everyone at once. THAT is what a god would do. Not come to people in dreams and magical bushes.

The book says he'll do that, go wait on the porch.

The book says "a god will speak as a giant face in the sky" , huh? Why must we wait? Why wasn't this done 2000 years ago.

Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out response.

[2dimes]

Why must we wait? Why wasn't this done 2000 years ago.

Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out response.

Book says you have to wait, no reason.

[jay_a2j]

The Book of Revelation was written so that Paul could disguise is message and because coming from his time he would not know how to describe what he was seeing... (What Paul describes as "giant locusts" could be attack helicopters but he used something familiar to him....he had never seen a helicopter before). Yes, I believe it is literal. That there will be a literal 7 year tribulation, a literal antichrist, a literal Armageddon and a literal return to Earth by Christ.

Wait a second...if it was all written as a "disguise", how can YOU pick and choose what is literal? Maybe "anti-christ" was code for "non-believer" and "armageddon" for a clash of neighboring cities?

"take the words of this book and seal it up, so that it can not be understood until the end days" (paraphrased) It is now starting to be understood...hence, we must be in the "end days".


If it makes you feel better about yourself to interpret it that way, go ahead. It is what it says it is. "they will gather together at the place called Megeto for the final battle of Armageddon". "The army of the East (China) will kill 1/3 of human population". "every man will be required to wear a mark on his right hand or forehead". "He will have the number of man 666". And so on.... literal, not symbolic.

[jay_a2j]

Jay - do you believe every story that someone tells you?

What makes the Bible different from another story book? Nothing. Anyone can write in the front page "This is the word of Dog" or something, that doesn't mean that Dog actually wrote it -- just that the person who wrote the book first also wrote that it's Dog's work.

The difference here is I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

[jay_a2j]

Hmm...well it seems to me that a perfect, magical, all knowing, all-seeing god would write perfect text that could be instantly understandable and would not need any interpretation.

Why is this perfect god writing imperfect text?

I don't claim to have a stranglehold on truth.

No...that would be jay

No, that would be God's Word.

[jay_a2j]

If there is a god. Why is there suffering we don't cause jay

Why is there suffering that we cause? God does not promise us a problem free, suffer-less life. He does promise eternal life for those who believe and "stand firm to the end".

[WL_southerner]

the word armageddon i think come from a town in syria

[vtmarik]

"take the words of this book and seal it up, so that it can not be understood until the end days" (paraphrased) It is now starting to be understood...hence, we must be in the "end days".

It is no better understood now than it has ever been. We've just got more people who want to cash in on the fear and paranoia that exists in the world today, so there are more books being published. Hal Lindsey, Pat Robertson, and the rest of their ilk are making so much money off of the fear.

If it makes you feel better about yourself to interpret it that way, go ahead. It is what it says it is. "they will gather together at the place called Megeto for the final battle of Armageddon". "The army of the East (China) will kill 1/3 of human population". "every man will be required to wear a mark on his right hand or forehead". "He will have the number of man 666". And so on.... literal, not symbolic.

But you said that it was disguised truth, so which is it? If the text of Revelation is a disguise, how can we even consider taking it literally.

[Backglass]

If it makes you feel better about yourself to interpret it that way, go ahead.

What makes me feel BEST about myself is that I don't waste my life away worshiping ancient stories and fairy tales.

Isn't it time for you to pray for forgiveness again?

[2dimes]

Nate, i think any nonbeliever should be allowed to try and interpret biblical teaching in a way that caters to them, after all if people dont believe in the God that authored the book any teaching out of the book that an individual is looking to acquire should meet the needs of the individual who is seeking some bit of helpful knowledge.

I agree with you, why not read what it says instead of taking someone else's word for it? I think it should totally be a personal book.

I do think it should be used for positive or some times you end up with gross misinterpretations like the racist groups hunting Jews and such. Using the bible to justify their actions. "They dun killded our saviour."

Or some cult leader telling you what things "really" mean, some are worse than others. If you're into one of the cults, then thinking for yourself is wrong and only leads to trouble.

Certainly there is more than one way to glorify God, but one wonders considering the teachings about not picking specs out of our brothers eyes while there is a spec in our own....why we believe all methods of edification, especially ones which condemn individuals are seen as equal in the sight of God as those which do not condemn but rather help to raise up others?

The whole thing with the eye thing is it's my human nature to point out how I'm better than you and try to help you be more like me, while I'm doing worse things than what ever I'm trying to "help" you avoid.

So yeah I'm supposed to fix my life before I try to help you.

I guess I can't help anyone currently.

[2dimes]

Wait a second...if it was all written as a "disguise", how can YOU pick and choose what is literal? Maybe "anti-christ" was code for "non-believer" and "armageddon" for a clash of neighboring cities?

Antichrist isn't code in the book it kind of means non-believer like you say.

[Xayath]

1000+ posts....yeah i am not reading them all.

Point one:

God's power exists outside of science and logic ergo neither can be used to give evidence or proof.

Example:

If God was Christ and Christ was dead, then God was dead.
The dead are inert, ergo God was such.
QED God as inert could not have logically rose himself from the dead.

Disclaimer:

I am a Christian and make no apology for this, but i do not see how any god or religion can be proven by logic. Faith is a believe without proof or logic.

Sources:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
REF- Definition 1 meaning 2 and Definition 3 Meaning 2

Coda:

Athiest, Agnostics, and any person who puts their faith any supernatural Entity, e.g. God, Brahaman (sp?), Ra, Allah, or even Lassie, can agree that we got here somehow. And regaurdless of how we got here we are still responcible to live our lives the best we are able. To do anything other than that is the onlything i could ever consider a sin.

P.S. For christains who read this please note that lieing is the most discussed sin throughout the bible. (HINT,HINT)

P.P.S Any who would wish to discuss this informally may contact me at Xayath for yahoo instant messenger.

The only Difference between ignorance and idiocy is intent...

[AlgyTaylor]

I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

Why?

[got tonkaed]

2 dimes....i just wanted to respond before i drive home for the week break....i certainly dont think that the provision in question disallows people to help one anohter, after all thats the crux of what most of my posts encourage. However there is a difference between being helpful and being judgemental, and thats what i think the damnation to hell if you dont get saved is guarded against by that provision, thats all.

[Xayath]

i just have to say this.

2dimes from what i have read u are the most respectable christian i have seen posting here.

all the others have had a smudge of bible bashing in them, u are actually cordial to the very person ur DEBATING with. Bravissimo well done

[2dimes]

Tatonka;

I agree, and that's the whole "The way you judge others is how you'll be judged."

What I meant by help and why I used "s is me telling you,
"Hey dude, put down the ham. It's against the law." with bacon on my breath.

It basically warns if I'm running around teling people they're rotten and going down, I better have my ducks in a row.

And I just felt like pointing out that typically the "We're right, bow down" crowd is the problem with religion.

At any rate have a great week off!

[2dimes]

i just have to say this.

2dimes from what i have read u are the most respectable christian i have seen posting here.

all the others have had a smudge of bible bashing in them, u are actually cordial to the very person ur DEBATING with. Bravissimo well done

Um that's kind of strange. I wouldn't say I've ever been able to call myself a "Christian". I'm just not worthy.

As far as the bible bashing goes, that's kind of most of my posts through this area of the forums.

I'm cool with you calling me a christian, you probably shouldn't let them see that sort of thing. Sometimes "christians" really hate me.

[Xayath]

sry imeant bible thumping.i equeat that with people using the bible as a blunt intrument against others

and sorry itseemed like u were on i am sorry

[WL_southerner]

and man was still around before god,

[unriggable]

I am a Christian and make no apology for this, but i do not see how any god or religion can be proven by logic. Faith is a believe without proof or logic.

Exactly. God is there to fill the gaps. However the gaps lessen as we find out more for ourselves. The point is, we know so much that christianity has been squished into a few places, like the debate over homosexuality or abortion. We are close to proving that homosexuality is a genetical thing, not a choice.

[Why is there suffering that we cause? God does not promise us a problem free, suffer-less life. He does promise eternal life for those who believe and "stand firm to the end".

Like the christian malaria-wreaked africans

[jay_a2j]

But you said that it was disguised truth, so which is it? If the text of Revelation is a disguise, how can we even consider taking it literally.

Part of it are symbolic (ie. "giant locusts"... "beast with 10 horns") But the overall writing is literal.... we just have to figure out what these symbols mean.... and are doing so.

[2dimes]

sry imeant bible thumping.i equeat that with people using the bible as a blunt intrument against others

and sorry itseemed like u were on i am sorry

No need to be sorry don't appologise.

Yeah the bible as a tool of fear and oppresion. That's a pretty crummy thing but it's rampant. Strange thing is it's usually the same book just way different perspective.

As I keep repeating, the reason I like the bible so much is it is such a personal thing. You can interpret so much of it in so many ways.

Look out you're going to burn! or God loves you and you just need to let him. And everything in bettween.

[AlgyTaylor]

I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

Why?

Why, Jay? What makes you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?